If I may please quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia on this important Christian concept ----

"The OT (Old Testament) clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God's spirit is simply God's Power.

If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly (Isa. 48:16; 63:11; 32:15).......Very rarely do the OT writers attribute to God's spirit emotions or intellectual activity (Isa. 63:10; Wis.1:3-7). When such expressions are used, THEY ARE MERE FIGURES OF SPEECH that are explained by the fact that the RUAH was regarded also as the seat of intellectual acts and feeling (Gen. 41:8).

Neither is there found in the OT or in rabbinical literature the notion that God's spirit is an intermediary being between God and the world. This activity is proper to the angels, although to them is ascribed some of the activity that elsewhere is ascribed to the spirit of God" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 13, p. 574, emphasis theirs).

THIS ENCYCLOPEDIA FURTHER STATES:

".......the NT (New Testament) concepts of the Spirit of God are largely a continuation of those of the OT.......The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.

When a quasi-personal activity is ascribed to God s spirit, e.g., speaking, hindering, desiring, dwelling (Acts 8:29; 16:7; Rom.8:9), one is NOT JUSTIFIED IN CONCLUDING immediately that in these passages God s spirit is regarded as a Person; the same expressions are used in regard to rhetorically personified thingsor abstract ideas (see Rom.6:6; 7:17).

Thus the context of the phrase 'blasphemy against the spirit' (Mat.12:31; cf. Mat.12:28; Luke 11:20)shows that reference is being made to the power of God" (Vol.13, page 575).


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God Bless everyone everyday

Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).

As you noted, wopik, there are different references in Scripture. How about them all being correct?

The Holy Spirit is referred to as 'it' in Acts 2: 2-3, 16, 17.

Now notice Acts 12:10. Peter is being released from jail by God's angel, they pass the second ward and come to the iron gate which opened of "HIS own accord." A gate made of iron (certainly not a living person) is referred to as "his."

wopik, what translation are you using? I've checked out the Jerusalem Bible and there's no reference to the Spirit as "it" or to a gate as "his"

Wish I could remember which theologian said that God was not a person, but that God was not less than a person.

There is something on beliefnet called a belief-o-matic which asks 20 questions about God and tells your compatability (in percentages) with different beliefs and religions. I usually check off thusly on question #1."The supreme existence is both the eternal, impersonal, formless Ultimate Reality and personal God (or gods)" Perhaps this is why I keep turning out 100% Hindu on belief-o-matic. Funny, I don't look Hindu

charitas,

michael

I thought about this some more, having heard from a freind about the fellow who has been teaching
Vipassana here in town and meditating for 30 years.

It seems that while on retreat recently in Thailand, he hears an audible voice telling him that he was loved. Now he dismisses his groups with "May the Lord shine His face upon you." That is a huge leap for a Buddhist!

God is more than the sum of his parts, but apparently it pleases him to express humself through six billion human forms, and is able to love each and every one according to where they are, Thailand and elsewhere.

Anthropomorphic language in the bible is both
insisted upon by conservatives and disturbing to liberals, but it just seems the most likely way for the diety to reveal itself to human children.

just thinking out loud...

charitas,

michael

It's always made sense to me that if God created us as persons, then God must know something of this as well. Besides, this is one of those issues that revelation addresses; I don't think you can use philosophy to establish the personal nature of God.

By personal, here, I mean that God is not an inanimate force, but has Intelligence and Volition in Freedom as well, which is what constitutes us as persons. As Michael has noted, God is "not less than a person," or else that would make human beings with our spiritual intelligence and freedom a higher being than God. Rather, we say in Christianity that human beings are images of God -- i.e., we image something that is possessed by God Super-naturally.

Phil,

King James version: Acts 12:10, kjv

If the Holy Spirit is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26, kjv).

Similarly, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42 kjv; 14:28 kjv; I Corinthians 11:3, kjv).

Wopik, I don't follow. What does the Spirit being "sent" have to do with its divine nature. If President Bush sends Secretary Powell on a mission in the Middle East, there is no implication about Bush having more of a human nature than Powell for doing so. Divine nature is related to divine attributes, which the Spirit clearly possesses. That the Father, Son, and Spirit have different roles to play in the order of creation and salvation is another issue altogether.

Wopik,

If you look into the council(s) of Nicea, this is explored in depth and was of great importance at the time. If one is looking for it carefully, one can find the Trinity revealed in the O.T.

I've been thinking about O.T. appearances of "The Angel of the Lord," and "The Son of Man."

Who was Jacob wrestling with and why did he walk with a limp for the rest of his life? When I read Phil's book on Kundalini and Christian Spirituality, I said to myself, "OK, here is someone who knows about the Holy Wrestling Match.
Almost everyone I speak with or read the last few years is a wrestling fan.

Then I was thinking about Daniel, Shadrach, Meshiach, and Abednego (I know a black preacher who says, "a bad negro") rofl, and "One with a face like unto the Son of Man." Who is this in the fire with them? Is this a picture of mystical experience? A preview of coming attractions?

charitas,

michael

Jesus never spoke of the Holy Spirit as a divine third person. Instead, in numerous passages He spoke only of the relationship between God the Father and Himself (Matthew 26:39; Mark 13:32; 15:34; John 5:18,22; etc.). The Holy Spirit as a person is conspicuously absent from Christ�s teaching in general. Of particular interest in this regard are His many statements about Himself and the Father, especially when He never makes similar statements about Himself and the Holy Spirit.

We should also consider that, in visions of God�s throne recorded in the Bible, although the Father and Christ are seen, the Holy Spirit is never seen (Acts 7:55-56; Daniel 7:9-14; Revelation 4-5; 7:10). Jesus is repeatedly mentioned as being at the right hand of God, but no one is mentioned as being at the Father�s left hand. Nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in the Scriptures.

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/book...whoisGod/spirit.html

Jesus never spoke of the Holy Spirit as a divine third person.

"I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth. . . " (Jn. 16, 13)

Here, and in several other places, Jesus refers to the Spirit as a he. This Spirit is sent by Jesus (Jn. 16: 8) and so he is not simply Jesus in an interior manifestation. Jn. 15: 26 further indicates that the Spirit "issues from the Father"

wopik, are you a Christian? Christians believe in the Trinity. It's one of the distinguishing beliefs of Christianity. If you don't accept this, then maybe you're a Jehova's Witness or something.

quote:

Here, and in several other places, Jesus refers to the Spirit as a he.

The Holy Spirit is spoken of in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person.

For example, it is referred to as a gift (Acts 10:45; 1Timothy 4:14). We are told that the Holy Spirit can be quenched (1Thessalonians 5:19), that it can be poured out (Acts 2:17,33), and that we are baptized with it (Matthew 3:11).

People can drink of it (John 7:37-39), partake of it (Hebrews 6:4), and be filled with it (Acts 2:4; Ephesians 5:18). The Holy Spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2Timothy 1:6). These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person.

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In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in Their form and shape, the Holy Spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner � such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (verse 3), water (John 4:14; 7:37-39), oil (Psalm 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an �earnest,� or down payment, on eternal life (2Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV).

These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the Holy Spirit is a person.

quote:

Here, and in several other places, Jesus refers to the Spirit as a he.

Hi Phil,

The Greek word pneuma, usually translated �spirit� but also translated �wind� and �breath,� is a grammatically neuter word. So, in the Greek language, pronouns equivalent to the English �it,� �its,� �itself,� �which� or �that� are properly used in referring to this word for �spirit.�


In some passages in the KJV the translators properly used neuter pronouns. Romans 8:16, for example, says: �The Spirit itself (not himself) beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.�

Matthew 10:20 and 1Peter 1:11 are other places in the KJV where the proper neuter pronouns are employed.

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God Bless everyone everyday

And yet, the word "he" was used by Jesus. Surely Jesus knew they difference between "he" and "it," right?

Besides, you are once again doing theology on the basis of word-definitions. Read John's Gospel where Jesus refers to the Spirit and note that the Spirit will instruct, remind, lead, give witness to, etc. . . . all sorts of activities that presuppose an intelligent Being, not an "it."

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So, wopik: you're Jehova's Witness, right? I notice you ignored the question about whether or not you're a Christian from my previous post.

quote:

So, wopik: you're Jehova's Witness, right? I notice you ignored the question about whether or not you're a Christian from my previous post.

I am definetly not JW. I am a believer in Jesus Christ - John 1: 1-14.

Thank you for the opportunity to post here.

Mithraism is perhaps the greatest example of paganism's last effort to reconcile itself to the great spiritual movement which was gaining such sturdy influence with its purer conception of God.[Dill, Roman Society From Nero to Marcus Aurelius, p. 585.]

Ernest Renan, the French philosopher and Orientalist, expressed the opinion that Mithraism would have been the religion of the modern world if anything had occured to halt or destroy the growth of Christianity in the early centuries of its existence.

All this goes to show how important Mithraism was in ancient times.

It was suppressed by the Christians sometime in the latter part of the fourth century A.D.; but its collapse seems to have been due to the fact that by that time many of its doctrines and practices had been adopted by the church, so that it was practically absorbed by its rival.

These are excerpts from Martin Luther King, Jr.'s paper on the subject. He, too, researched the truth ----

http://www.stanford.edu/group/..._on_Christianity.htm