(original post by Uraqt deleted)

Being a Catholic is surely about faith in Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior, and a dependence on him to be the way, the truth, and the life for the journey. Catholics are formed in this faith through the teachings of the Church, which have come to us through the Apostles and those who succeeded them, through the Sacraments, through the community, etc. Some of the teachings of the Church are more important than others; hence, we can speak of a "hierarchy of truth" in the Church.

One cannot really claim the name Catholic who does not assent to the higher teachings of the Church--e.g., God as Trinity, the resurrection of Jesus, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the Immaculate Conception of Mary and her Assumption into Heaven, etc. The "lower" teachings of the Church are another matter, but even here, one cannot simply dismiss them because they are not clothed with the aura of infallibility. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to find any authoritative listing of what constitutes higher and lower teachings. The "higest" of the higher are easy enough to identify, having been proposed in creeds and ex Cathedra statements.

Being a Catholic means more than being baptized and raised in the faith. It means believing what the Church believes, loving what the Church loves, and being part of a community which believes and loves in this manner. It means worshipping with such a community--whether as a parish, religious group, etc.--and being active in the world to help the vision of Christ become a reality.

The Catholic Church is unique among all the Christian Churches in its recognized authoritative leadership, which enables the Church to remain focused concerning its beliefs and vision. Scripture, Tradition, and Teaching Authority constitute the three-legged stool upon which Catholics sit in their confidence of understanding the truth which Christ revealed. None of these three can be divorced from the other; e.g., authority cannot proclaim what Scripture and Tradition do not also affirm, but it can help to clarify something which might seem ambiguous in Scripture. This leadership could theortetically be organized in many ways, including a more democratic model than we currently have. This is obviously one of the torrid issues of this time in Catholic history, and a factor which influences whether many today want to be part of Catholicism.

Phil

What one is saying when they call themselves catholic(and any other label)is that they are willing to follow after the teachings of men.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve:
[qb]What one is saying when they call themselves catholic(and any other label)is that they are willing to follow after the teachings of men.[/qb]

Did you read my post?

Phil,

I did read your post. Being Catholic is highly based upon the "teachings of the Church". This is the case even if the teachings of the Church are not in agreement with what is written in the Word of God. Is it better to please men than God? We are all observing right now the fallout from the policy of men pleasing men. Children and families are being greatly effected and the leaders who gathered together and can't agree to a zero tolerance policy. No church can save anyone. Only the Lord Jesus Christ can save us. Who should we be taught by, men or the Lord? It is an utter disgrace and if the local parishes don't put pressure on their leaders for zero tolerance, then it is truly a case of the blind leading the blind.

Steve, while I appreciate your efforts in behalf of a pure Christianity devoid of merely human teachings, I wonder how much awareness you have about what the Bible is, and how it came to be. You speak of the Bible as the Word of God as though it were dictated directly to someone by an angel, and that the Church is largely irrlevant to the content and validation of the Scripture. This betrays to me a kind of fundamentalistic Christianity which, as you are noting, will never get along very well with Catholicism.

I would submit, however, that there is nothing taught by the Catholic Church which goes against Scripture, for, as noted above, Scripture is an essential source of Revelation for Catholics. I know you will come up with a list of things which seem to contradiction, and so I refer you to this web site which probably has a lot of the answers you're seeking.

Phil

Phil,

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. That answers the question of who is the source of the scriptures. I do question the accuracy of what most consider "the church" to be. I think men for the most part define church as a building or denomination. I do enjoy reading the writings given to Paul. Galatians 1:11-12 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." Phil, I do question the accuracy of your belief that all of what is taught in the Catholic church agrees with scripture. I don't need to make a list. There are a number of obvious issues but it is not my intention to attack any one sect.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. That answers the question of who is the source of the scriptures.

How did God let us know which writings--even which parts of which writings--were Revelation? You want to divorce the Church from this somehow, but it's just not possible.

I do question the accuracy of what most consider "the church" to be. I think men for the most part define church as a building or denomination.

The Second Vatican Council in the 60's came up with the definition of the Church as the people of God. That goes a little beyond the concept of a building or denomination. But as you noted, the term is used in many ways.

I do enjoy reading the writings given to Paul. Galatians 1:11-12 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Again, why should we believe Paul? It was the Christian community which accepted Paul's teaching as the word of God and rejected others as not worthy. Anyone can say they had a "revelation of Jesus Christ," but that doesn't mean it will be accepted by the Church.

Phil, I do question the accuracy of your belief that all of what is taught in the Catholic church agrees with scripture. I don't need to make a list. There are a number of obvious issues but it is not my intention to attack any one sect.

That web site I referred you to has replies to the most common allegations about Catholics being unfaithful to Scripture. But, sure, if you view Scripture as a document that has no relation to the Church--a kind of Christian Koran or Book of Mormon--you'll find all sorts of things. The truth is that Scripture (N.T.) was written in the context of the Church by members of the Church for the Church.

Hang in there with this, and don't conclude that because fundamentalists sound confident and self-assured in their attacks against Catholics that they're right.

Phil

Phil,

I'm not a fundamentalist. There are many of "fundamentalists" who are not correct in their doctrine also. That is the freedom the Word speaks of. The Truth shall set us free. Again, I'm not attacking any one denomination. Many do not have the correct doctrine when it comes to recognizing who God is.

I recognize this is an old discussion and have no desire to bring up old skeletons. The word catholic means to wholeness or to teach the whole tradition. What is the whole tradition is it to be found in the Church Fathers alone, The principles found in scripture or reason. I would say all three. Everyone knows by know that the our understanding of Church and scriptural teaching changes over time. The Principles remain but the understanding changes. The great churches catholic remain whether Roman, Old, Anglican, Orthodox, Church of Sweden and many others that hold to the creeds of the undivided Church, apostolic succession, the three fold ministry etc. But none of us can say we teach exactly the way the faith was taught or understood in the 1st century. Even Rome teaches the Church has matured over time.
Fundamentalism, Purism, and are reactions to change that have appeared in every century of the history of Christianity.
Personally I continue to believe that to be a true Catholic is to be an inconclusive Christian open to other traditions, the Church Fathers, and the teachings of the undivided church and developments we have learned through dark times. Here is the importance of Reason and enlightenment.