Hi Brad,

Thanks for jumping in as Phil is on vacation. Before I could responsibly respond to your post, I need to ask you to be a bit more specific (one example may be enough) on a particular political issue which you are addressing....even if it is to recall it from the thread above, and also a specific example concerning the Dali Lama, and exactly why you feel their views should be different then what they are, given their positions and influence in the world around them.

My very open minded Catholic, Canadien parents other than raised their 6 children with strong American ideologies and coupled with having very boring history teachers, and growing up in a very rasict area of the country,(Shreveport, La) I grew up to be quite politically apathetic. So, as a result, politics and American history are something I have only gotten more interested in very slowly over the years, but more so over the last 5 years or so.

Also, it would really be helpful to me if you could answer my question about your personal experience with meditation..of any kind. I ask because I have had 30 years of first hand experiences with a fairly regular TM meditation/ Sidhis pracitce ( until recently anyway) which at times had DRAMATIC influences (like night and day differences) on both my perception of the world around me, and on the acutal reality of the world around me, and I have many friends who have had similar experiences or even more dramatic experiences. So as I said, having some sort of common ground in this area I feel is very salient and necessary for bearing any fruit in this discussion.

I need to ask you to be a bit more specific (one example would be enough) on a particualur political issue you are addressing�

Virya, most of this thread is discussing the interview of Deepak by Dave Weich from this link.

quote:

Dave: In another interview, you noted a certain concern about the man who recently was elected President and his lack of...

Chopra: ... awareness.

Dave: Awareness of the world at large, let's say.

Chopra: Well, he's learning to delegate appropriately, so maybe we'll survive.

With people now voting in Iraq instead of being tortured by the state, one can legitimately wonder whose consciousness was higher.

�and a specifice example concering the Dali Lama for instance

I�ve read about three of his books. In at least one of them the Dalai Lama seemed quite enamored with communism�and had few, if any, good things to say about capitalism. I don�t have those books anymore and so pulling exact quotes is going to be kind of tough.

And answering my question about your experience with meditation...I ask because I have had first hand experiences with meditition that had DRAMATIC influences on not just my perception of the world around me, but also shifted of the acutal reality of the world around me, and have many friends with similar experiences.

Okay, I�ll take you at your word that your meditation has had a dramatic influence on your perception of the world�.as has for me reading not only the Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh, and the Buddha, but George Will, Rush Limbaugh, and Edmund Burke. I�ll reiterate that many of the things that Dr. Chopra is saying I agree with and I think are first rate. But I also think I can make a strong case that the left-leaning politics of Chopra or the Dalai Lama are seriously flawed, incomplete and represent at times a lower state of consciousness -- one given to naivete. That�s not a fatal flaw, though. We�re all na�ve about something.

I think both of these people have a lot to offer�and would have much more to offer if their political and social outlook didn�t stop, more or less, at Karl Marx. That�s, of course, a bit of an exaggeration, but I truly believe that the spiritual left has no monopoly on virtue�although they too often act and speak as if they do.

This is my perception, Virya. I mean you no personal animosity. I�m just stating my opinion. I�ve tried to, and continue to, learn about the ideas of people such as Deepak Chopra. And I�ve done a bit of meditating�enough to know that that is not the way for me. To each his or her own, I guess. But I�m often a bit disheartened to see that people such as Chopra seem to be quite closed-minded on certain subjects. They could use a little more Ann Coulter in their lives.

Brad,

Your perceptions are your perceptions.... I other then take them personally. If I did that with people with all that is going on in the world, I would be a basket case! Expressing our views and experiences is what this site is for�thanks for responding.

I don't know enough about the Dali Lama..or the pro's and con's of capitalism versus communism to comment, except that it seems any ideology ultimately manifests the same sorts of problems or success depending upon the consciousness of the people..the structure is just tends to change the form it takes. If the tendancy for abuse of power is there, it will show up no matter what form of government is there..i.e. the annihilation of Native Americans, slavery of blacks, labor slaves of all minoriities, oppression of women, mimorities, exploitation, greed, overconsumption....etc. We just choose to focus of on what reflects the vision we want to see and ignore the shadow, just as human beings might tend to do in their personal lives.

About Deepok.... Thank you for the link to the article. It helped make a lot of what Deepok had to say more clear to me when taken in context with the rest of the article. Within context of the rest of the article, there is little, if anything I found offensive with my own inner experience of Christ's message to us, nor do I think Jesus himself would be offended by anything Deepok said...except perhaps that he and others of us who share Deepak�s views need to be more patient with the world at large. I realize these views may be way out of sync with what many Christians feel is Christ's message, but the mere fact that there is such a huge split about what is considered "right action" both morally and politically amongst both left and right Christians suggests that there is a lack of common ground in inner awareness, or 'consciousness.' of many Christians. I know several pracitising pagans who are much more compassionate and Christlike then many Christians, and like wise with other religions.
So profession of ones creed or dogma means less a less to me. Religion and spiritual organizations of any kind tend to promote a certain degree of cliquishness that I am uncomfortable with for some reason...So I tend to lood at what people do and say, inlight of univeral principles, myself included, as an indication of ones spiritual sincerity. But I have to say, I find more peace and far fewer splits and to lesser degrees, amongst meditators and yoga practitioners in these areas and that to me suggests a deeper coherences and sense of unity is available to us though such practices.

I can however other then dismiss what I have experienced and know about how much meditation alters ones perception and even the world around them, i.e. what they attract to them...and that it does so in ways that reading can other then do in and of itself. While reading is of course important�it is other then a substitute or replacement for meditation or more inward practices. Meditation shifts perception and reality on the level of vibration, resonance and frequency. It purifies and stabilbizes consciousness on deeper, more subtle and unified levels of awareness. One of the greatest contribution MM Yogi had given to the world is to inspire and promote scientifice research which proves the benefits of meditation...TM in particular, but it could be applied to other forms.. The TM movement itself has it�s flaws llke any organization it�s size.

One could read all the books in the world and just end up with a very educated , busy and agitated mind, full of facts and speculation about the world These would then have to balanced and weighed upon previous learned or genetically inherited concepts. And still one would not have expereinceced with in themselves the true nature of the world�..or �the kingdom of God within� them. Such learning would ultimately do little to alter ones consciousness in the way that regularly stilling the mind can do over time. And with so much reading, we would have that much less time to do the work Jesus asks us to be doing, as cited in the beatitudes.

We can other than be certain what it must have been really like for the apostles to "Be with God" through reading about it, but silence and contemplation help tremendously and are scripturally encouraged. "Be still and know that I am God". Those of us who have ever been blessed with the opportunity "to be" in the presence of saints or saintly people know this experientially. And these experiences, also help us to imagine or gleam what BEING with Jesus must have been like for the apostles. Deepak cites his experience of being with M.Theresa and Nelson Mandella...and I have experienced being with 5 different people who I consider saints. One of these is AMMA , the Hugging Saint whom 100�s of thousands now feel is a Divine Incarnation, myself included. All the facts of her life and my own experience of her attest to it..and I am more inclined at this poinnt in my journey, to trust my personal experience much more then any doctrine or dogma. Saints however have a vibration about them that we can resonate with and much more so when in their presence�but it it is possible to do it with out being with them. I just find it greatly facitates spiritual growth to be with them when the oppurtunity presents itself.

Reading or hearing words from saints out of a book, other then fully captures the vibration of the saint in an of themselves, unless we prepare ourselves in some way to recieve them or to resonated with their vibration. And hearing their words, from the vibration of the saints voice allows their words to penetrate a truly receptive soul that much deeper. In my experience, meditation deeply enhances receptivity and surrender to spiritual messages. (By the way, I can't say that I have ever felt any high vibrations from Rush's voice on the radio whose closet addiction caught up with him, even during the times he used to so very rudely, crudely and hypocritically judge illegal drug users)

I feel this abiltiy to effectively communicate their experience of being with Christ and Christ�s message must have a been problem for the apostles and is still the problem today. People hear spiritual truths at the level they are at and if they haven�t �been still� and given time to purifying their temple, than the message may not go as deep ir or take roor. Many Christians not only do not meditate or spend time in silence, but some actually believe �stilling the mind� and different forms of Yoga to be evil in some way, ...if you can believe that. My older sister is one of them. This is so insane to me, so archaic. All forms of yoga serve to enhance purification, on physical, emational and spiritual levels and thereby eases our ability to integrate the Kundalini energy with more ease and grace. With out such purification, a lot of unneccessary suffering can be experienced, even illness both physically and mentally.

Even if we liken our inward journey to an outer journey,metaphorically speaking,, no book can replace personal experience as a teacher of inner wisdom. Reading a book about sailing around the world may inform and expand the readers awareness to a degree, and even prepare them in ways for their own future journey, but it would not enrich them in the same way as experiencing the voyage themselves. They would only be reading about the experience of another, from that persons perception, which comes in and through their conceptual filters and is colored in its delivery to us by their ability to adequately communicate it. Even if the person had journeyed with the writer themselves, and then read the author�s book, their two experiences would be different depending upon the previous cultural and experiential concepts they were filtering the experience of their journey through. Similarly when two different readers read the same book, such as the Bible, they both are enriched in different ways, at different level so conciousness depending on how pure they have made their temple. A journey that two friends of mine took to India together very colorfully and dramatically demomstrates this�for one it was a walk in the park �.for another a constant dance with darkness and light�but eventually a stablitlazation of the light. She�s is a Doctor of Psychology, a long time TM/Sidha, who specializes in brain research. She wroke a book which is now published� called �Awakened� �.it�s quite entertaining, from what I understand , as is she.

All of this supports, Deepak�s citing of various examples of the different �levels of consciousness� found in responses from personalities in the Old and New Testament.: fight/flight, reactive, restful, intuitive, visionary. And in so doing he seems to be asking readerrs to consider that these variations in levels of response have been going on through out history�.and in all areas of our present day world�.

Granted Deepak could have been more sensitive in his choice of words about the "Dead man in the sky"...but I don't think Jesus would take offense at these words....Any offense taken would merely be us attaching our own finite ego's to our beliefs . The Jesus I know and love needs no defense...no armies. He simply hopes to see us to live as He instructed. To love our enemiies and resist not evil.
I feel Chopra�s heart is in the right place and his experience is rooted in long deep spiritual practices�.and that is ultimately all that matters to me and I think it is what matters most to hime. It is hard for me to fathom Jesus supporting war, or promotitn war through fear of war, or terrorism or fearing anything for that matter, as a motivation for promoting peace and justice, , it just does not compute�How could it, if fear is the absence of love.

Perhaps this seems too simplistic to you, but Truth to me is increasinly simple. My veiws are rooted in KNOWING there are other technologies available to us, in the form of large group meditation and enhancing consciousness. Not only I have experenced it, and no that no one could enter such a vibration and think a violent thought, but it's been proven time and time again with research, and is much more affordable and life enhancing then the billion, soon to be trillion dollar big business of war. And rather then having faith in any politician or army or destructive nuclear million dollar weapons and technology, I have hope and faith in this knowingness. At least now it is in our collective awareness, much like the realization that the world was not flat afterall, but which the Church tried to silence out of fear. It's just a matter of time before enough people wake up and get it�� than 'consciousness will just take over" and old, limiting paradigmes will fall away.

Like new wine in old skins�outworn structures will simply not be able to contain spirit any longer. Hopefully, we haven�t already done too much damage to the planet in the meantime . But it looks to me as if our errors of judgement are going to take a long time to heal�

The Holy Now

There were no formerly heroic times, and there was no formerly pure
generation. There is no one here but us chickens, and so it has always been:
a people busy and powerful, knowledgeable, ambivalent, important, fearful
and self-aware; a people who scheme, promote, deceive and conquer; who pray
for their loved ones, and long to flee misery and skip death. It is a
weakening and discoloring idea that rustic people knew God personally once
upon a time -- or even knew selflessness or courage or literature -- but
that it is too late for us. In fact, the absolute is available to everyone
in every age. There never was a more holy age than ours, and never a less.

There is no less holiness at this time -- as you are reading this -- than
there was the day the Red Sea parted, or that day in the thirtieth year, in
the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as Ezekiel was a captive by
the river Chebar, when the heavens opened and he saw visions of God. There
is no whit less enlightenment under the tree by your street than there was
under the Buddha's bo tree. There is no whit less might in heaven or on
earth than there was the day Jesus said "Maid, arise" to the centurion's
daughter, or the day Peter walked on water, or the night Mohammed flew to
heaven on a horse. In any instant the sacred may wipe you with its finger.
In any instant the bush may flare, your feet may rise, or you may see a
bunch of souls in a tree. In any instant you may avail yourself of the power
to love your enemies; to accept failure, slander, or the grief of loss; or
to endure torture.

Purity's time is always now. Purity is no social phenomenon, a cultural
thing whose time we have missed, whose generations are dead, so we can only
buy Shaker furniture. "Each and every day the Divine Voice issues from
Sinai," says the Talmud. Of eternal fulfillment, Tillich said, "If it is not
seen in the present, it cannot be seen at all."

--Annie Dillard, For the Time Being

Hi Virya, and welcome! I'll reply to a few of your points, knowing that there are many more that you've made that I'm passing on, for now.

Virya: Before I comment on this thread Phil, I am curious as to why you interpreted Depoks statements as being specifically about Christianity, because I didn't take it that way at all.

Chopra: In many cases, it's the simple fact that science and technology have dismantled our traditional beliefs. If we are aware what science has shown us, we can no longer think of God as a dead white male in the sky. We can no longer squeeze God into the volume of a body and the span of a lifetime. That limits God.

I don't know of any other religion besides Christianity that professes belief in a "dead white male" who ascended, nor who really believes that God came to us in "the volume of a body and the span of a lifetime." Yes, Hinduism has its avatars, so maybe he's criticizing them as well, but as later on he extols Vedanta, I have my doubts. Orthodox Christian doctrine is fundamentally at odds with Chopra's Vedanta and he knows it.

At lot of your other points seem to be based on the premise that one is not really in a position to criticize Dr. Chopra or any other teacher unless one has practiced deeply what they recommend. This thread isn't really objecting to TM, however, only to Dr. Chopra's apparent slam of Christianity, and his flippant remarks about U.S. policy in Iraq. Presumably, one could even be an adept TM practitioner and still disagree with Dr. Chopra on these points, as they aren't intrinsically tied to TM practice, but to theological and political attitudes.

You seem to place your personal experience as the telling criterion when it comes to evaluating truth or value. There's no getting around the importance of personal experience, but in Christianity our understanding of truth is also communicated in a more objective mode through the doctrines of the Church. Hence, something of a dialectic between experience and doctrine is necessary; every religion insists on something like this unless one is founding one's own religion. The Buddhists, after all, do take refuge in the Buddha, the Sangha, and the Dharma; it's not to each his own and let your experience guide the way.

I'll stop here. Let's see how it goes, hopefully keeping the focus on Dr. Chopra's work. As you'll note from previous posts, I am much like Brad in admiring certain aspects of it.

I don't know enough about the Dali Lama..or the pro's and con's of capitalism versus communism to comment, except that it seems any ideology ultimately manifests the same sorts of problems or success depending upon the consciousness of the people..the structure is just tends to change the form it takes. If the tendancy for abuse of power is there, it will show up no matter what form of government is there..i.e. the annihilation of Native Americans, slavery of blacks, labor slaves of all minoriities, oppression of women, mimorities, exploitation, greed, overconsumption....etc. We just choose to focus of on what reflects the vision we want to see and ignore the shadow, just as human beings might tend to do in their personal lives.

Virya, you might find this article helpful as a consciousness-raiser. Seeing America through the lens of oppression while ignoring America�s obvious goodness in contrast to other most of the rest of the world is folly. Even in Buddhism "Right Understanding" is crucial to "Right Action."

I realize these views may be way out of sync with what many Christians feel is Christ's message, but the mere fact that there is such a huge split about what is considered "right action" both morally and politically amongst both left and right Christians suggests that there is a lack of common ground in inner awareness, or 'consciousness.' of many Christians.

It seems to me, Viryan, that having differences of opinion on such major things as war and peace is healthy and to be expected. It�s a sign of maturity. It�s a sign that ALL sides of the question are being considered instead of a one-size-fits-all Pollyanna view that peace comes only from innocent people laying down their arms, even in the face of a murderous other.

I can however other then dismiss what I have experienced and know about how much meditation alters ones perception and even the world around them, i.e. what they attract to them...and that it does so in ways that reading can other then do in and of itself. While reading is of course important�it is other then a substitute or replacement for meditation or more inward practices.

I�m willing to accept that, for some, meditation is the primary means toward gaining understanding. But as a conservative who believes in the true meaning of diversity, and who believes in freedom, I�m adverse to this typical left-of-center "one-size-must-fit-all" attitude.

One could read all the books in the world and just end up with a very educated , busy and agitated mind, full of facts and speculation about the world These would then have to balanced and weighed upon previous learned or genetically inherited concepts. And still one would not have expereinceced with in themselves the true nature of the world�..or "the kingdom of God within" them.

I�m in total agreement with you if you mean that book knowledge is no substitute for experiential knowledge. And vice versa.

Dear Phil and Brad,

Simple minded, Pollyanish Virya here....

Whew...this process may take much more time than might be healthy for me..both physically and spiritually. How do you guys keep up with it all the time?

My soul is feeling torn between doing more service work and what looks like is going to be a LONG process of trying to understand my personal spirituality in light of what seems to be so many incongruities of the Church and religion in general. Who knows, if it weren't for these, it's likely I would have taken up a vocation long ago in the Church. I love community life and marriage has never really been very attractive to me, even though children are... (and I'm not a lesbian either)

At this poinst, I'm not sure whether all this writing and reading will be as worth while as just doing more service work. But I'll try hanging it there for a while and see where it goes, perhaps in smaller doses.

Meanwhile, I think it could save us all a lot of time if you could some general questions. They may seem like a departure from the Deepak discussion, but they are VERY pertinent to Phil's comments below about the necessity of a dialectic between personal experience and Church doctrine.

**** In fact, I think the BIG question for me would be how much of that dialectic is a two way street?

From all that I have experienced and what I see, it doesn't look like the Church is very open to that. And though I'm thrilled to see that you are Phil, that is not the same as dialoguing with those who create doctrine.

"You seem to place your personal experience as the telling criterion etc...when it comes to evaluating truth or value. There's no getting around the importance of personal experience, but in Christianity our understanding of truth is also communicated in a more objective mode through the doctrines of the Church. Hence, something of a dialectic between experience and doctrine is necessary. "

So, perhaps bfore going any further, you could help me understand some the inconsistencies that I find so confusing surrounding Christian doctrine.... then I'll know if it's even worth the effort.

1. How does the Church or either of you, reconcile so much of its history and the controversy in some of its' current affairs, in light of what scientific research is now able to prove about the nature of consciousness and it's co-creative possibilities i.e.. the studies that show how TM reduces crime rate...increases health well being., reduces or eliminates addiction, help the economy,..even closed down some prisons in Africa...because the prisoners rehabilitated themselves upon release...?

1a.Why is the Chrurch not more open to exploring it and with hopes that if they find it works they could even encourage their congregations to try it?

Instead, one finds many articles on Catholic Web sites that say it is "evil". Just do a search on google. In light of my own personal experiences with meditation and many others experiences and the research which backs up it's benefits, these are VERY important questions. And it's rather dumb founding for me...given the huge number of social ills and imbalances in society.

2. As I am assuming by "doctrines of the Church" you are referring to the Catholic Church, what was the Church's stand on the Iraq war?

If I remember correctly, from reviewing some old posts on the Awakening List concerning a discussion with T. Reece and a few others about the Iraq war, F.John joined it once and sent an email containing Church doctrine, to inform everyone what the Church considers a "just" war. Botttom line: "Pre-emptive war is NOT considered just..according to Church doctrine." And my understanding is that the Pope was NOT in favor of our war on Iraq. Nor was F. John. In an email to me last October, he acknowledges the "anomalous situation" he was in, but said "from where I sit, Bush is a disaster for this country, and I don't know anybody who is voting for him." At the time, he also said he "didn't know much about Kerry, but that at that point "ANYBODY would be better then Bush." (He may have later changed his opinion on this, given Kerry's stand on abortion or perhaps he decided not to vote at all.)

3. Given that most sincere practicing Catholics usually make their own moral decisions anyway, what is the ultimate merit, purpose or value of Church doctrine or dogma, given how split so many are on these issues?

4. And how is their merit and value measured?

4b. And if it is not measured, how can we KNOW that doctrine and dogma are contributing as best it could?

5. Given the many other measurable approaches such as meditaion for enhancing ones well being and spirtuality , why are these tools seen as threatening rather then a welcomed gift from God to be integrated into liturgies and services in order to more fully enhance humanities ultimate spiritual unfoldment?

Giving me some reasonable and satisfactory answers to these questions, may help me to better understand Church doctrine and dogma.

By the way, it may interest you to know that the majority of the westerners found in New Age classes, yoga classes, TM courses, and most of the strongest devotees of Eastern teachers I know, very often refer to themselves as "recovering Catholics or Jews" with an ever increasing number of Baptists joining the ranks. Some of these may at first appear as lost souls, as I feel I was for a while, but as more and more old paradigms are cleared and the mass amount of new info is filtered through, these folks to me , and I include myself, are MUCH more peaceful, compassionate, sincere, disciplined, non-materialistic and service oriented then most Church goers I know. And let's face it, if the leaders of religion were really doing their jobs in the first place, there wouldn't be such a mass exodus of such earnest souls from their cradle religions. Many of those who remain don't even know they are hungry....rather they seem to just follow along like very self satisfied, sleep walking sheep...

6. Shouldn't religious leaders acknowledge and take responsibility for the fact that they are not giving people SOMETHING that people are hungry for, given the mass exodus and given the prevalence of addiction in our society?

I find so much of "religious" thinking VERY contradictory, confusing and disconcerting, with the exception of those who truly give their lives to service to charitable works or ministry with the poor, afflicted, oppressed or imprisoned. And there are many ways to oppress,imprison, and it seems to me that the Catholic church and other religions have done and still do their share of contributing to keeping people from fully knowing the "Kingdom of God Within."
I know have felt imprisoned, in many ways, for many years, and I still occasionally wrestle with old ghosts of deeply impressed concepts of guilt and shame, rooted in negative experiences from Catholic schooling. And my older sister doesn't even see how it stilll limits her. She has all kinds of shame about her body and passes that on to her kids.

Thank God for having lived in ALC for 3 years !
That was the most enriching part of my Catholic experience.

7. It would also help if you could explain how each of the following were in keeping with Christ message to us. These a just a few that stand out in my mind, there are many more.

"selling indulgences"
burning "witches" at the stake
the Spanish Inquisition

Concerning the sacraments....
I used to get a lot out of Reconciliation....but I never had any kind of deep transforming experiences from Mass or communion, and I even experimented with it. I even went faithfully and sincerely almost every day for months. etc, just like my practice of TM. And as a teenager, I khew some alcoholic mothers who went every day and I know some of the clergy suffer form various addictions.... i.e. the cleric pedophiles for example, who not only receive the sacrament of communion daily but even perform and administer it. Clearly, they did not experience any kind of transformation from receieving communion. So naturally I would wonder what good it does anyone, and whether it is not just all in their head.

What if communion is just a very DEEP seated sentiment that gives people false sense of security and comfort?

As sacri-religious as it may sound, if never put to measurable test, it may well be just that. After all, people have been doing it for almost 200O years and we still have a lot of problems in society, even amongst the receivers. I know I've seen much more peace and health in meditating families and much better behaved, and conscious children, then I've seen in most Christian families. Surely that should inform the Body of the Church, which by Bapitism I am a part of, but where is there an opening and receptivity in the Chruch for that to be integrated and encouraged as part of a daily or even weekly practice in the same way communion and prayer are encouraged?

My mom gets upset with my yougest brother and I for not going to Mass. She says we don't know what we am missing...and I tell her she doesn't know what she is missing by not meditating. But it's funny...she much more often lets little things upset her, then either of us...and always has...it's not just her age.I don't sense the Peace of Christ in her that communion promises,,,but I do see it in mediators. What I see in her is blind faith..and that is really sad to me.

8. And what about the honesty of the Church officials who sought to "cover up" their sins... shouldn't the practice of weekly and daily sacraments have deterred this?

In some cases they even allowed for the crime to continue, of what often ends of being multi-generational damage in many peoples lives. (My father and brother both died of prolonged addictions due to the shame of long held sexual secrets, which all started from a priest's pedophilia when my Dad was 12, and that was just the tip of ice burg in our family's dysfunctions.
And our pastor only SHAMED her more, by sending her home for wearing long pants when she went for counsel about it, and she is a modest woman! Needless to say she never went back to him,just bit her tongue and dealt with it...oh but she LOVES the Catholic Church and serves it in many ways. Some Christian he turned out to be huh?

It is not only logical but more life giving for me or anyone to want to put my energy into what works. And I would hope the Church would also want to give it's believers tools and sacraments that work. Meditation for me has always been experienced as more deeply sacramental than communion ever was. And meditation helps with addictions. I have often observed it, have personally experienced it, and it is statically proven. And it is hard to imagine a meditator treating my mom the way she was treated.

These are just a few of incongruities which make me question the notion that Church "authorities" at ANY level, have any special inside connection to God's will for humanity.

And why would their insight or guidance not be equally though, perhaps differently available in and through all of us in some way or another?

It seems to me that the gifts of ALL cultures are part of Body of CHRIST and should be celebrated and integrated as such. And that women are every bit as equipped to see and hear Gods will for us as any man,and maybe even more so.

9. So what is the hidden message of the Church to women, where there are there not yet any women in higher positions of authority in the Church?

1o. Or why is it that in a Mass I recently attended, in a congregation that is roughly 70% women, and roughly 1/2 of these women Hispanic, that the priest chose to use two male CELEBRITIES, Michael Jordon and Christopher Reeves, focusing somehow on how much money they make as an example of what "courage" looks like? (I actually find that MOST church congregations have a higher % of women active in the Church.....how about you?)

I could appreciate the Chistopher Reeves example, given his tragedy..

But what subltle message did these two examples give to women about their significance or ability to make a difference in the world?

Why not use the most common example.....the single mom, who works, goes to school,takes care of her Alzheimer's mother and raises 4 kids alone?

Or what about former Texas Govevenor...Ann Richards?

Or a well loved, well known famous local Hispanic activist, singer-songwriter, Tish Hinajosa?

11. And what message did his message really give to anyone about what is truly important in spiritual life?

12. So what would the ultimate be for me or others like me, or for the Church community at large, in participating in a religion whose leaders not only does other then inspire me in the ways that eastern teachers do?

13. And how does a woman like myself, who is actually a bit SHOCKED by the apparent ignorance and lack of awareness of many of the Church leaders, find her way in a Church that has a glass ceiling for women? .

14. And why on Earth would I want to bother at all when there are so many others religions that have open doors to women ministers and whose liturgies are receptive to the ever evolving and unfolding spiritual gifts of the world community?


"Compassion is not something one person has for another, but rather something that arises when one begins to see all others as ones' own self" Amma

Lots of good questions, there, Virya. I'll work my way through them as time permits, but maybe you'd do better meeting with a spiritual director for some of these? Just a thought.

1 and 1a. To my knowledge, the Church has no position on TM per se. There was a document a few years ago presenting guidelines on using Eastern forms of meditation. I found it balanced and helpful. So TM is not a problem; some of the teachings associated with it are.

2. The just war theory is about pre-emptive war and nothing else, as defensive wars are always considered justifiable (unless you cannot win). Pre-emptive wars are indeed justified under the conditions laid out by the just war theory. There was no official, doctrinal statement on the Iraq war, but there was condemnation of it by the pope and bishops; they didn't see it meeting the conditions of just war (that was John Edmond's point as well). OTOH, lots of good Catholic ethicists saw it justified for many reasons, none the least of which was humanitarian. And, fwiw, Kerry's stand on Iraq was pretty much the same as Bush's.

3. There are a variety of doctrines and dogmas, and they aren't all equally important. The essential dogmas tell us what is truly indispensible to Christian faith and spirituality. Doctrines shed clarity on some aspect of Christian living, worship, belief, practice, etc. These are distilled from the lived experiences and reflection of the Christian community through the ages and, as such, represent a reservoir of wisdom for our benefit.

4. I've touched on this a bit above; you're really asking for an adult ed class on this one, however. I'd recommend it.

5. You seem to be asking why we don't do TM as part of the liturgy? Is that right?
A. It's an Eastern form of meditation with no explicit focus in Christ or the Christian mysteries.
B. Liturgy makes use of rituals to enable and enhance public worship. TM as a form of private meditation doesn't lend itself to liturgical worship.

Don't know what to say about all those "recovering Catholics." I'm sure they each have their own story and attribute their pain to abuses in the name of Catholicism. I've run across a few in my time as well. Maybe they'll find their way back, maybe not. It's good that they're finding something of spiritual value, however.

6. Most religious leaders are trying to give their people something to help them grow in faith. It's not their fault that their people don't pray, nor that our materialistic culture negates so much of what they teach. There are classes, retreat centers, courses galore, spiritual direction, books, etc. for those who want to grow.

A common theme in your writings on these issues seems to be anger toward religious leaders. You seem to be acknowledging as much in speaking of feeling trapped. I hope you know that many Easterners could share much the same; there are quite a few books on abuse by gurus, for example. The problems you mention aren't unique to Catholicism or Christianity.

- I'll stop here for now . . . stewardship of energy.

Virya,

You raise many issues and concerns which the body of Christ can ill afford not to confront at this point.

Here is a little something from The Twelve Steps, a Spiritual Journey, a Working Guide for Healing Damaged Emotions:

Shadow: Although "shadow" may sound odd or like unfamiliar Christian terminology, the idea of a battle between light and dark is a biblical truth.
When St. John speaks of Christ's coming, he describes Christ as light. The idea of darkness and shadow illustrates the evil side of this world
and the corrupt nature in ourselves. "Shadow" refers to the darkness we carry within us. Just as our shadow follows our every move, our dark side or fallen nature is always with us. Our shadow is most evident when contrasted with the light of day. Our old, fallen nature is very noticeable when we stand beside God's light, the Bible. Take time to read John 1:1-9, Romans 7:7-25, and I John
1:5-7
--------------------------------------------------
I do hope you will stick around for awhile, and perhaps begin a topic or two about the shadow. It may be helpful to others facing similar "shadows".

peace and love,

michael

Virya,

You raise many issues and concerns�

Yes, she certainly did. Some of which I share. For example�

quote:

1o. Or why is it that in a Mass I recently attended, in a congregation that is roughly 70% women, and roughly 1/2 of these women Hispanic, that the priest chose to use two male CELEBRITIES, Michael Jordon and Christopher Reeves, focusing somehow on how much money they make as an example of what "courage" looks like? (I actually find that MOST church congregations have a higher % of women active in the Church.....how about you?)

I could appreciate the Chistopher Reeves example, given his tragedy..

But what subltle message did these two examples give to women about their significance or ability to make a difference in the world?

First, I really hope we can all agree that wisdom and fairness do not come through quotas. We should surely keep a watch out for our hidden biases, but doesn�t it cheapen the whole process if we are worrying more about the sex of our role models than their heroic attributes? Is being born with a certain set of sexual organs somehow worthy of praise? That�s how I see it, anyway. But that said, I think the Catholic Church would do well to allow women to be priests and even Pope. And this would not be explicitly to advance feminism (which has become an obnoxious and often noxious cause which tends to advance only a very narrow idea of what a modern woman can and should be). It would be to advance wholeness. Men and women together are more complete than singly just as, presumably, men or women are more complete with God than without him/her/it.

quote:

12. So what would the ultimate be for me or others like me, or for the Church community at large, in participating in a religion whose leaders not only does other then inspire me in the ways that eastern teachers do?

13. And how does a woman like myself, who is actually a bit SHOCKED by the apparent ignorance and lack of awareness of many of the Church leaders, find her way in a Church that has a glass ceiling for women? .

14. And why on Earth would I want to bother at all when there are so many others religions that have open doors to women ministers and whose liturgies are receptive to the ever evolving and unfolding spiritual gifts of the world community?

Truth?

Naw, MM's right: there are some issues that are needing to be addressed, and you're raising them here. Only, it's often been said that "it's a big Church." If you absolutely can't abide the RC position on women and ordination, for example, there are demoninations that do ordain, including the Espicopalian / Anglicans, who are our first cousins.

- - -

Rather than continue working my way through all these questions and objections, Virya, let me make a few suggestions instead. It's obvious that you've found something in Eastern teachers and practices that's been meaningful, but you also seem to be wondering how this might all relate somehow to Christianity. Have you drifted so far down Eastern rivers to have lost contact with your Christian roots? Are they all saying the same thing? Do the inadequacies in the Church that you lash out against justify turning your back on Christianity for once and for all? And yet it seems that you can't, or at least that you're not ready to throw in the towel at this time.

So here's what I suggest:

1. Take it easy. You don't have to resolve all these questions right away. We'll do better helping you in smaller doses, at any rate.

2. Start with Jesus and the Christian mysteries. Where are you with those teachings? I have an entire forum dedicated to this topic below, with graphical illustrations, audio files and all. Take it bit-by-bit and see what still makes sense.

3. With more clarity from #2, maybe we can help you sort out some of the Churchy kinds of things. No use going there if you're not even able to consent to the core teachings of the Church, however.

4. Stick around, as MM invited. Get involved in other discussions. I think Christian faith is "caught" as much as it is "taught." That was part of the magic from the old days at LSU.

Shalom!

Happy Resurection!

Thank you all for your comments. I feel a bit like I am writing to the Three Muskateers
All for One and One for All !

I started a reply but...whew...I really need to take a break. I to take care of some other responsibitlies and don't think I have the stamina for to much more of this reading and writing. And next month is really busy for me.

Phil I have been considering a spriritual director...just need to start looking. I know I have lots to integrate....much more then you know. It'll have to be someone VERY multi-culturally oriented in their thinking. But for now please know that I feel TM only served to deepen my relationhip with Christ, and it does so for all who want it too. It enhances ALL life experience,on the deepest most subtle levels. Even the philosphy compliments Chrisitianity..for me and for many of the former nuns, and seminarians I know. But, I am not advoctaing the Church adopt TM per se, though it is a wonderfully simple technique. But more on all that later..

And just so you all know, I am not as angry as I may sound. It's just that raising awareness about oppression, suppression of the feminine face of God seems to be part of Gods plan for me, and I am just now learning to fly. I feel She/He wants me to be a voice for that, and it is much bigger and more pervasive then women not being ordained. That is just the most obvious "staring us in the face " example I could think of, but it's just the outer reflection of how much the feminine is suppressed/oppressed/feared in western culture. And for me, that subject, is very much related and connected to what Deepak is trying to say, though he could have said in nicer ways, and I'm sure he would if you asked him to. Meanwhile, I will also try to express it better in my next reply.

Meanwhile, I would encourage you all to write Deepak himself with questions. Tell him how it felt like a slam to Christianity and ask him to eloborate on his meaning. Wouldn't that be the more Christlike thing to do anyway, given that you have been fed by his other books?

I am confident Deepak is much closer to Christ then you seem to think he is, and from my perspective, his life and works would make him much closer to Christ then Bush, despite what Bush says about Him and Jesus.

Texas as you may know is Numero Uno for the death penalty.. thanks to Mr.Bush.

Phil, is there some secret to posting, using quotes, italics, bolds..Are there instructions somewhere...it takes so long for me to do this. I can't seem to cut and paste in quotes. It seems the easiest thing would be cut and paste all your comments to Word and then delete out all but what I want to reply to....that way I can also spell check.

Love and Joy, Virya

Virya, I was following merrily along until your pot-shots at Bush, whose job is certainly one that I don't envy. FWIW, I don't think Texas' death penalty situation is "thanks to Mr. Bush." There's legislation, courts, juries, judges, review boards, etc. Bush doesn't assign people to death row; that was all in place when he arrived.

Anyways . . . Happy Easter to you as well. Please do continue to drop in and interact with us. You have a lot of good energy.

It's just that raising awareness about oppression, suppression of the feminine face of God seems to be part of Gods plan for me, and I am just now learning to fly. I feel She/He wants me to be a voice for that, and it is much bigger and more pervasive then women not being ordained. That is just the most obvious "staring us in the face " example I could think of, but it's just the outer reflection of how much the feminine is suppressed/oppressed/feared in western culture.

In the United States we've got a woman Secretary of State and two Supreme Court Justices. This is typical of the Western world. Contrast that with, say, Saudi Arabia:

quote:

ANTI-EXTREMIST discontent with the Wahhabi dictatorship in the kingdom is visibly increasing. Women in Saudi Arabia live under conditions unknown anywhere else in the Muslim world. They are forbidden to drive automobiles, which is defined by the Wahhabi clerics as a form of sexual advertisement or prostitution; they are compelled to accept the so-called "guardianship" of a male relative, known as a mahram, whose permission in writing is necessary for them to leave the country. As noted by the woman dissident Mody al-Khalaf, the latter rule was enforced even in the case of Thoraya Obaid, a Saudi representative to the United Nations.

Women are banned even from leaving their houses without consent of their "guardian," who can compel public agencies to dismiss them from employment, and can appropriate a woman's name for financial purposes. The "guardian" can even "loan" the woman's name to another person. Saudi men can divorce and remarry without informing their wives of such facts, and while Saudi women have the right to divorce their husbands, they automatically forfeit custody of all children above the age of six if they do so. As al-Khalaf writes, "Requiring permission from a male guardian is not Islamic law. It is Saudi law."

And considering what was happening to women in Afghanistan under the Taliban or in Iraq under Saddam, George Bush ought to be known as one of the world's biggest feminists.

The Death of Right and Wrong: Epilogue
by Tammy Bruce

Despite the left's "multicultural" agenda to teach us that the West is horrible towards woman while it�s a women's paradise in the rest of the world, the reality is the opposite. Women have it far better in the west than anywhere in the world. Virya, I believe in a good dose of righteous indignation and the pursuit of justice. But I think one needs to be on much firmer footing with the facts or else one is just being used by others to support a truth that doesn't exist. If you have a passion to pursue justice for women then I think that's great. But in any pursuit for justice, the truth is the most valuable commodity.

quote:

Phil, is there some secret to posting, using quotes, italics, bolds..Are there instructions somewhere...it takes so long for me to do this. I can't seem to cut and paste in quotes. It seems the easiest thing would be cut and paste all your comments to Word and then delete out all but what I want to reply to....that way I can also spell check.

Sorry I forgot to respond to this request.

You should be able to copy/paste into the post form. I do it all the time. If you use the Post Reply button, you will have all sorts of options for working with your text. You can also reply using the Quick Reply form at the bottom of the page; copy/paste the material you want to reply to in it from posts above. Use the i tag to italicize, the quote tag to quote; the b tag to boldface. See this page]on how to make tags. The forum software will do it for you if you use the Post Reply button and click the tag options.

See the faq link at the top right on the forum index page for more info on how this all works; here it is, for your convenience.

Just quick reply:

Brad,
Your comments helped me realize I will have to define what I mean by the "feminine face of God" next time I write. And it was more of an editing problem when I mentioned oppression/suppression/fear of the feminine in
"western" culture. Your right.... it is universal and begins on much more hidden levels then the obvious examples in any culture. And one of the remedies to it, I feel very much lies in the "experiential" insight that can be gained from deep, regualar meditation.

Phil,
I am sorry if my comments about Bush offended you. If that one comment got to you, well then I would either have to be "silenced" or you will by have to brace yourself for my future postings. I spent almost 2 years corresponding with my right wing sister, each of us educating the other and seeing some very well done expose's and documentaries about our govenrments goings on in 3rd world other countries. That coupled with a very eclectic spiritual path has very much influenced what I feel Christ calls us to, and about how we get to that realization. And isn't sharing those perspectives what your site is for?
I wouldn't wish Bush's job on anybody....but he signed up for it. And I feel he has very calculatingly capitalized on peoples fear and the evangelical movement...he even said as much himself. And when begged by other Christians to revoke a death penalty of a female proven convert to Christ, he did not revoke it and felt no remorse about it when asked..But you should know that most of his politics, I have a very hard time reconciling with what I feel Christs message is to us..
Until next time ..Happy Easter! Virya

Your comments helped me realize I will have to define what I mean by the "feminine face of God" next time I write. And it was more of an editing problem when I mentioned oppression/suppression/fear of the feminine in "western" culture. Your right.... it is universal and begins on much more hidden levels then the obvious examples in any culture.

I probably didn't make this clear, but I wasn't really referring to the religious aspects of the feminine although I think that's certainly an interesting and legitimate topic. But I thought you were very clear when you first said, "�it's just the outer reflection of how much the feminine is suppressed/oppressed/feared in western culture." But your further explanation of this in terms of oppression/suppression/fear appearing on "more hidden levels" is consistent with the ideology of those who look out onto western culture and seen little but the vast oppression of women or the feminine. So you haven't quite lost me or my critique yet, Virya. But I hope you stay with me for a moment because I think I have a helpful point to make.

One of the personal problems I have, Virya, is taking my inner sense of worthlessness and projecting it out upon the rest of the world. I can find signs of my incompetence anywhere and everywhere. And this is aided and abetted by a mind that misses very little (which is, of course, ironic and not quite a fully accurate description). First off, there is, of course, some oppression of women going on in western culture just as there is oppression of men. How much of each? If too much, can we make it better without instituting even worse oppression? I think these are legitimate questions, but my point is that it's, of course, ludicrous to say that no oppression exists of women (or men, or children) anywhere. But that's a long way from saying that it is a major or even a minor problem. There are some (many, I think) really "out there" feminists who say and believe such things as:

quote:

"All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French, Author, "The Women's Room"

I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, MS. Magazine Editor

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference." -- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime"

These are the views of angry people. Evidence and facts would apparently mean little to them as it would not support their current worldview. To say that there is some hidden prejudice in western culture is, of course, correct. How could there not be in a population of a few hundred million in just the United States? But, again, this is not the same thing as being widespread. But those who for whatever reason must take a pessimistic or worst-case view, no matter the actual evidence, they can always say that it all lies "under the surface". That's the philosophy that most black leaders, and many blacks themselves, hold. No matter how good the evidence before their eyes, the truth is, at least according to them, that racism is always there "just under the surface". One should quickly realize that this is a recipe for doing nothing more than justifying a bias. It's also a recipe for accomplishing very little and spreading almost no goodwill�and goodwill is vital to truly overcoming whatever prejudices or injustices do exist�as is the truth, of course. The probability remains, therefore, that those who see oppression everywhere or "under the surface", despite ample amounts of easily-identified evidence against such a notion, are likely projecting their own beliefs outward onto the world and it is a very limiting way to exist. I know.

Granted, this is a difficult circumstance to escape from. I'd give my eye teeth to do so. I think, Virya, that a sense of proportion would do us both good. We have been taught a great number of things that aren't true and they can be truly difficult to unlearn. A lot of things I am truly unsure about, but one thing I know for sure is that anger does nothing but eat away at ourselves. It pollutes our thinking and everything we do. And almost always it's the case that the people in the past who caused this anger are in no way affected adversely by this current anger. So the sad fact is that they get to us a second time�and we ourselves are serving up this second dose of hurt.

We can be filled with a great passion to do good because of our pain and adverse experiences. But that energy can also consume us if we are not careful and we can become the distributors of pain instead of the good that we had hoped to do. I hope you can take your passion and turn it in a positive direction. There are no doubt women who need special help, especially in a world where feminism itself has grown to be such an unforgiving beast that it too has begun to be an instrument of oppression.

No death penalty supporter here, either, but in a state or country where it's legal, it would be inappropriate for the executive branch of the state to block every instance because the governor or president isn't for it. I can see intervening in a situation where there is reasonable doubt of guilt surfacing at the last minute, but otherwise, the judicial process ought to be allowed to move forward. That was Bush's policy when he was governor of TX, and it's the present governor's as well.

quote:

I am sorry if my comments about Bush offended you. If that one comment got to you, well then I would either have to be "silenced" or you will by have to brace yourself for my future postings.

It didn't offend me so much as it was whip-lashy out-of-sync with the rest of your post. Criticizing Bush is OK, but you broadsided him unfairly, imo. Comparing his faith to Deepak Chopra's didn't make too much sense either, inasmuch as Chopra isn't even a Christian and his remarks show very little respect for our core beliefs. Judging Bush's Christian faith isn't something any of us can do, at any rate.

We have lots of threads on the Iraq War and even a few on Bush. Let's try to stick to Chopra, here.

We have lots of threads on the Iraq War and even a few on Bush. Let's try to stick to Chopra, here.

Good point. Back to the Chopra chopping.

What makes Deepak so fascinating (at least to me) is that he has a way of saying (or writing) some profound things, and then he'll turn around and say something, frankly, that is really stupid. But that's okay since, like any scientist or thinker, anyone who is pursuing new knowledge is going to produce a significant amount of chaff along with the wheat. Here's a quote from him that catches my eye:

Our thinking and our behaviour are always in anticipation of a response. It is therefore fear-based.

Now, of course, we have to admit that a lot of our behavior is in anticipation of good things (food, sex, and other pleasures). But let's not spoil this thought too soon. As actors in this evolutionary dog-eat-dog world it seems reasonable to me to say that, at the heart of a good many of our actions, there is fear. But then one has to ask, "So what?" Is this always a bad thing? Has fear been dumped on a bit too much lately as the root of all evil? Couldn't one say that the pursuit of pure pleasure has fueled as much violence as fear ever has? I think it's possible. Who knows? But although fear can trigger bad things such as blind prejudice, it can also trigger good things as well. Would we ever undertake to better ourselves and to increase our knowledge if we didn't have a least a sidelong glance at, or anticipation of, fear? Would we ever plan? Would we ever be as alert and creative without at least a small dose of that electricity that fear brings?

It's a good point that fear run amok is harmful. But what about the pursuit of pleasure and self-gratification run amok?

One who could intelligently talk about this full range of issues would be a guru that ought to top the best seller list, at least as far as I'm concerned. But Mr. Chopra sure does make one think.