I've always found Catholic theological anthropology fresh air, since it is really telling how many fundamentalist Christians actually believe human beings are basically flawed or corrupted. In my conversations with them, I get the sense that their own sense of self informs this notion of depravity pretty strongly.

As much conflict and grief as there is in the world, it would, in my own imagination, be quite different if our primary sense of things were dictated by this notion of ontological corruption. As I see it, the potential for actualizing inherent goodness better explains the terrain of this complex world than the one John Calvin and his decendents describe.

w.c.

This was a beginning of an entirely new way of thinking for me. The emphasis on the "original" design before the fall that Father Thomas Keating presented me about 5 years ago took me in new directions. Keating was debating some "no self" doctrine Buddhists at Naropa nearby in Boulder and
they also believe that no good thing resides within the human ego.

Even in my most religious days there would be a teacher somewhere with the grace message. Some of the best messages on grace came to me from former fundamentalists. Religion tends to lay guilt trips on people, as Christ warned us.

Optimism about the human condition is more helpful to me now. Even if I am wrong, and human spiritual progress is impossible, I have only erred on the side of love.

This beats hating those cursed sinners and praying for the apocalypse

caritas,


michael <*))))><

The Catholic teaching is that the human race has become wounded through the original sin, which has had consequences for all of us. It also made us more vulnerable to the realm of evil spirit and marked the beginning of the creation of unjust cultures. Nevertheless, this wounding, while biasing us toward selfishness, did not completely destroy human freedom and intelligence, which is why the Catholic Church can affirm that other world religions have found a way to connect with God (while not denying that Christ is the fullness of the way, the truth and the life). In teaching this, the Church is not saying that we can save ourselves through our own works (Pelagianism), but is opposing those Protestant traditions which maintain that human nature was destroyed with the fall and now exists in a state of hell-bound depravity.

Phil,

I really like your approach and enjoyed the series you so skillfully put together in the Christian Mysteries series. For years I read and listened to the anti-Catholic rhetoric about works based salvation. I believe that may have been true at one time under the influence of Jansenism. I have a Baltimore Catechism given to me by a Carmelite nun
and it seems a little harsh by current standards.
There is a tendency for any religious group to fall into this, and a corresponding need for renewal in every generation.
Even worse than legalism is a spiritual deadness that lingers for years. John MacAurthur went to the very church where the Welsh Revival occurred in 1905, and reported that other than the plaque on the wall you could not tell that anything had happened there.
I am glad this site is devoted to prayer, since it seems to be the antidote to so many imbalances.

caritas,

michael <*))))><

Allow me to consider the argument about our nature's basic condition; wounded or destoyed, good or depraved, from God's perspective. Scripture is essential. Two things:

"God is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity."

and,

"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Therefore, God is so holy that even the slightest trace of sin is an affront to him. Hence the need for Christ's atoning sacrifice. Even if I believe in an inherent goodness (the very fact that I am a being created by God suggests a measure of truth in this), that is not enough. However fallen or depraved, or, conversely, however good I am, is of no consequence to God - I will sin, I will offend his holiness. I am fallen. Not destroyed, however.
A lot of Christians, not just Protestants, confuse feelings of guilt with a sense of judicial guilt before God. It is not healthy to be overly burdened with guilt; it is healthy to have an awareness of our guilt, judicially, before a holy God.
Also consider God as a lover of human souls. Is it necessary to differentiate between our metaphysical nature and our moral nature? God is love, yet there must be something about us that is worthy of his love. Our essential being, our soul? But he cannot stand our sin, sin being a consequence of our moral nature.
Technically I would be labelled a Protestant, yet I do not see myself coming exclusively from a Calvinistic or Lutheran heritage. I suppose I am partly a product of modifications on the teachings of these two reformers, and I do know the types w.c. is referring to. He may be right about their own sense of self informing their conception of our nature. I see a lot of closed minds, intransigience in these types. However I cannot quite get to grips with an argument for an inherent good. The wound Phil refers to is just too gaping, too infected (that is until Christ comes along and heals it).
My sense of self is built upon my being, my soul as a created thing, not upon my moral nature. It is essential to see ourselves as loved by God. He is a lover of my soul, not my moral nature. When I look at Him, I see someone so holy, so pure, that my nature, driven by selfishness, driven by the fall, by sin, seems so corrupted. I think it's important to have a sense of this, at least in some degree, so that God can work on us. Any notion I have of my inherent goodness is only a barrier to grace. And only when grace has been exercised, only when the moral nature has been dealt with through the cross of Christ, can the soul fly, liberated, into God's arms.

Stephen, I'm in agreement with your points about the need for purity when it comes to union with God. That's really what the spiritual journey is about, made efficacious, as you noted, by the cross of Christ and the gift of the Spirit.

When I speak of an inherent good in human nature, what I mean is that what God has created is still good, and this goodness is accessible to us and we still express it. Granted, though, the "gaping wound," as you noted--but one made much worse in some individuals through their upbringing than in others.