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well here is a letter i sent to phil a few minutes ago, hope you like it... : hey phil my name is greg i would love to correspond with you about your spiritual experiences and beliefs. i am a yoga teacher in santa cruz california, and am very intrigued by your desire to further the interreligious dialogue between christianity and the other world traditions. in particular, to consider what the true nature and/or difference is between the kundalini awakening process and the grace of the holy spirit . is there one? is it merely semantics? does christianity have to humble itself , and accept that other traditions have equal validity, or is it proper to esteem it as God's chosen religion for all mankind? for myself, i think that Christ was the latest Avatar of God, and the one Chosen to bring His message into the modern day. The word Messiah means, anointed one, or messenger. This is what Muhammad claimed as well, but Christ is beyond a Messenger or Prophet, and serves as an example of the nature of God Himself, revealed by mystery within a man's body and word. The Indian concept of an Avatar is of an incarnation of a particular aspect of God's infinite personality, with a specific duty and message. To me, the previous avatars, Rama, Krishna, and Buddha, all fulfilled God's plan according to their time. But Christ was specifically chosen to illustrate God's characteristic of unconditional Love, and the path of self-Sacrifice and Faith, as the best way to achieve a deep comm-union with Him. It is important to remember , the word Yoga, means union. when one is praying for God's presence, one is desiring a closer experience of God . What happens when two separate things get closer and closer? eventually they collide! all prayer and meditation is meant to expedite this collision- between the self and God, the ultimate Union. When a man or woman achieves yoga, or union with God, he becomes exactly like God, in spirit. - Confusion arises concerning , in an enlightened individual, is that one really God, or what? Is Jesus Christ the only man who has ever become completely One with God? What about everyone else? are we meant for an eternity of being one step below God, forever incapable of getting closer to Him? I think not. This difference in what a personality can accept, whether they can or cannot become One with God, is the fundamental difference between East and West. For thousands of years, christians were taught that only Jesus can be One with God- not You, not me, not anyone . the best we can do, is be good and get into heaven. This error, while divinely ordained, has reached its end among the growing population of Western seekers. All people may become One with God, even as Christ achieved Union with God. It is a social institution regarding hierarchies of power that encourages people to doubt their own ability to become exactly like and equal to Christ. Error in this way of thinking leads to false egotism; correct interpretation of this leads to enlightenment. This was the Buddha's message, in obscure negatively spoken semantics. If a man tries to teach calculus to sixth graders, perhaps one in a thousand can be taught. This one either has a great aptitude for math, or had a father/ parent who prepared him in advance! it is the same with Christ's teaching. The Western mind was not completely matured enough to comprehend Christ's complete teaching, so it was misunderstood for two thousand years. A lucky few savants, spiritually mature, were allowed to comprehend the entire truth. The majority were helped by it, and many were confused further by institutions claiming knowledge where they had none. Yet the message still spread, till the time was right for it to reach the whole world, and the whole world was mature enough to understand it completely. that day is soon coming, yet people still hold on to the dogmas of their tradition and sense of cultural superiority/ethnocentric imperialism. Letting go of the cage of doctrine which surrounds the intellectual mind / ego is the primary step in spiritual liberation... however, the greater the institution , the greater the dogma, and the greater the grip it has on people programmed to believe in it. the human mind is a machine, however incredible. the soul is beyond the mind, but the mind is programmed from childhood on by experiences, parents, teachers. a child believes whatever it is taught, no matter how absurd. the mind is easily enslaved by whatever local institution attempts to control it, whether governmental or religious, muslim, christian, communist or democratic. it is just a cage of beliefs which reinforce the ego / mind and trap it in illusions and fears. a true awakening will take a person completely beyond the words of any institution , but that enlightened individual still has to relate to their own mind, in the language that mind was programmed with, just like a computer. also they must communicate to their local culture , and use words which are commonly accepted. kundalini in one culture, holy spirit in another, buddha nature to some, Christ within to others. A saint is a saint! it is not up to men to determine who is a saint, despite what the catholic church may presume. it is only God who knows who is a saint, and God, like the American Consitution, makes no particular respect to any religion over any other- so long as the person loves God sincerely, he is granted God's Grace, in whatever language one likes. However, to continue this analogy, the President of the USA does swear on a Bible, not a Constitution! so there are inconsistencies with any teaching or code of laws, so long as they are interpreted and carried out by men who are still in ignorance of the Supreme. If the US government followed the Consitution properly, there would be no swearing on a bible as that is clear favoritism to Christian religion and culture. nor would polygamy be illegal, as it is ordained in the Koran, and making it illegal is clearly showing non-favoritism, which is religious discrimination, against Islam !(however , i am not advocating either of those things, but just to prove a point.) All the words which are used to codify what is true, and what is lawful, are always subject to the level of consciousness of the interpreters. Same for the religious experts, the religious lawyers of the world. Just because they are given authority by men, does not mean they are given authority by God. priests, rabbis, imams, whatever- just humans like you and me, whether the Pope or the Shah, Guru , Swami, whatever. anyone who invests anyone with more spiritual authority then themself simply denies themself their own self-rule, their own right to think and consider for themself- their own freedom, given instead to a teacher, institution , whatever. They deny the equality of God within all beings, and the Voice of God within themself which is given equally to all human beings , that we should all be equal brothers and sisters before God, instead of in a hierarchy of authority. This is why the Angels knelt before Adam- because God was within Him! and all humans ! | ||
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Thanks, Greg, and welcome. You raise lots of topics, and I'll respond to some of them shortly. Others are welcomed to chime in whenever, of course. I'm going to move this to the Christian Morality and Theology forum, as I think that's the direction the discussion will eventually go. Peace, Phil | |||
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Greg, I'll reply to this pgh to start things off. We've already had a lot of discussion on kundalini and the Holy Spirit in the Kundalini forum on this board, so you might check that out. In your listing of avatars, you omitted Lao Tzu, Confucius, and, while we're at it, why not add Ramakrisha, Ramana Maharishi, Adi Da and, just for the heck of it, Chief Seattle?  The Christian understanding of incarnation does not equivocate to the Hindu idea of "avatar." We do not believe Jesus incarnated a "particular aspect of God's infinite personality," but that he IS the Word, or Second Person of the Trinity, made flesh. Though he had a human soul and was a man like us in all things but sin, the person we encounter in Jesus is the Word, "God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God," as we say in the Nicean Creed. There are many reasons why the Church came to believe this: - his bodily resurrection - his Ascension to heaven - his gift of the Holy Spirit (only God can send the Holy Spirit) In addition to what you noted about his mission, he came to reconcile the human race with God. There is a redemptive aspect to his life and death that goes beyond the usual mission of avatars. Only God can effect this reconciliation; we cannot do so for we are the ones who have become estranged through sin. This was the point made by the early fathers like Athanasius who opposed the Arian heresy.
You do not seem to understand Christianity very well, if I may be so blunt, but seem, more, to look at Christianity through a New Age/Hinduish perspective. Jesus didn't "become completely one with God," as he was, from his conception, God incarnate. He was "begotten, not made," in the words of the Nicean Creed. So, unlike the teachings of early gnostic Christians, he didn't have to "realize" any enlightenment or union; it was his by "nature." Yes, we are "one step below God." Maybe more if you believe in angels. That means we are creatures. Get used to it. Nonetheless, we can fully participate in the "life" of God through the gift of God's grace, which transforms our human nature so that we become living cells in the mystical body of Christ. Look up the term, "theosis," on the net; we have quite a bit of discussion on this forum as well.
Thousands of years?! That would be . . . two. That's a very shallow and erroneous understanding of Christianity that you communicate. It's also a silly straw man fallacy used by New Agers to launch into a teaching on the superiority of their gnostic/enlightenment spirituality. Greg, you need to go back and do some reading, study, and reflection on basic Christian teachings. There's a lot on this forum that can help you out, if you're open to it. You state that, "for myself, I think . . ." which is fine. We need to know what we think and why. But in evaluating other religious traditions, we need to first properly understand what they say about themselves, all the while taking care to not project our presuppositions and biases onto them. It seems to me that you do a great deal of this, and that makes fruitful dialogue a dubious outcome. Peace, Phil | |||
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fair enough: "But in evaluating other religious traditions, we need to first properly understand what they say about themselves, all the while taking care to not project our presuppositions and biases onto them. It seems to me that you do a great deal of this, and that makes fruitful dialogue a dubious outcome." -- the main point i'd like to consider with you is what i stated previously: " yet people still hold on to the dogmas of their tradition and sense of cultural superiority/ethnocentric imperialism. Letting go of the cage of doctrine which surrounds the intellectual mind / ego is the primary step in spiritual liberation... however, the greater the institution , the greater the dogma, and the greater the grip it has on people programmed to believe in it. the human mind is a machine, however incredible. the soul is beyond the mind, but the mind is programmed from childhood on by experiences, parents, teachers. a child believes whatever it is taught, no matter how absurd. the mind is easily enslaved by whatever local institution attempts to control it, whether governmental or religious, muslim, christian, communist or democratic. it is just a cage of beliefs which reinforce the ego / mind and trap it in illusions and fears. a true awakening will take a person completely beyond the words of any institution , but that enlightened individual still has to relate to their own mind, in the language that mind was programmed with, just like a computer. also they must communicate to their local culture , and use words which are commonly accepted. kundalini in one culture, holy spirit in another, buddha nature to some, Christ within to others. A saint is a saint! it is not up to men to determine who is a saint, despite what the catholic church may presume. it is only God who knows who is a saint, and God, like the American Consitution, makes no particular respect to any religion over any other- so long as the person loves God sincerely, he is granted God's Grace, in whatever language one likes." -- the words of the various doctrines are only guides to inspire people into mystical experience. the various 'creeds' are simply attempts to systematize and legitimatize various forms of social organization and control. this habit of the intellect, the desire to be 'right' and to have others be 'wrong' ; the desire to say this is the 'only' way ; even as Christ is said to be the 'only' Son - these are mind games, and until one goes beyond the mind itself one cannot see God clearly . it is like trying to look at the ocean with a blindfold on. you may be able to hear it, but as they say, seeing is believing. many things were said about Jesus, and to Jesus, and by the followers of Jesus. But what did Jesus himself say? "the kingdom of heaven is within " "he who believes on me shall do even greater works than I " " Do not say that I am good, but that God alone is good " " and why call ye me, lord lord, and do not the things which i say? " "judge not, lest ye be judged " "among those born of women, there is none greater then john the prophet. but he that is least in the kingdom of god is greater then he " "nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest" ---- a man who truly seeks the kingdom within - he is seeking a realization of the truth , which will lead to a perpetual state of enlightened consciousness which comes from the knowledge that all beings are One in Spirit, and that one's true nature is God. If more Christians actually looked inside themselves for Heaven, do you think there would be this world full of churches telling people that you go to Heaven when you die? no, because God is the God of the living, not the dead! What Jesus is saying, by asking people to look within for the kingdom, is that heaven is not a place, it is a state of being. The mystics of the world, of east and west, all go through death and resurrection, not just Christ alone; they just keep it to themselves, and were not destined for a public drama of it. you can find stories of such things if you look carefully. When people profess faith in Christ, it is a good step. When people truly find the Kingdom within, there is no need for faith anymore, or Christ, because such a one IS 'One with the Father' even as Christ Himself is. Organized Christianity's flaw is in its consistent denihilism that other people besides Christ have become 'One with the Father' . That is the whole meaning of ' Yoga ' - UNION WITH GOD , but because it comes from another culture it is deemed a threat to the dominant group consciousness of the Judeo-Christian culture, and the hierarchy of government, political and religious, that have a lot to lose if more people became 'One with the Father' . it means that all the sheep would become lions, and the wolves would be in grave danger... well peace to you Phil. Keep looking Within! go deeper! pray for 24 straight hours, no sleeping or eating, and get back to me! | |||
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Greg: Now why would you presume to fully understand the very heart of people--why they believe Jesus is unique? Do you really think you can reduce such intimate matters to "a sense of cultural superiority/ethnocentric imperialism" and a need to be right? You're being very intrusive, and you're full of assumptions about something you don't understand. Back off a bit, friend, watch where you walk, and get some wisdom. edit: first quote is from Phil. | ||||
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Seconding Ariel's sentiment, Greg. You really do come across as arrogant and judgmental, demonstrating a superficial understanding of Christianity. Eg.
We had a discussion here on dogma and spirituality sometime back. Here's a relevant quote from it.
- https://shalomplace.org/eve/for...?r=56010395#56010395 I'm not getting your point about dogma legitimizing "various forms of social organization and control." How about an example of what you mean by this? Excessive emphasis on dogma can lead to "dogmatism," which is a problem in some areas, to be sure. Same with morality and moralism, and also with emphasis on subjective experience leading to gnosticism and ecclecticism, which is the problem with the New Age, in my opinion.
Geez!  Look, Christianity (at least, Catholicism) doesn't deny that people in other religions have experience of God, become saints, go to heaven, find union, etc., so you can drop that straw-man argument. Besides, many Christian retreat centers have classes on yoga; so does the YMCA, a Christian organization. That said, Christianity has a message to be faithful to, and it does emphasize a unique and decisive place of Jesus among the world religions. It seems that you assume your yoga practice has brought you to the same experience with God that Jesus had. I cannot and do not accept this. Of course, if you raise a few people from the dead, walk on water, feed the multitudes with a few bread and fish, calm storms with a word, and then resurrect and appear to others after you die, I might reconsider. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Phil, | |||
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=== my point exactly. forgive me for sounding argumentative, but this is exactly what turns off many people from institutionalized christianity. Have i had the same experience of God as Jesus? absolutely yes, and literally no! why yes? because i have beheld God within myself and beyond myself; i have felt my oneness with Him, and live according to his Law, to be loving and non-judgmental (non-condemnatory) to my fellow men, who follow different creeds with sincerity. why no? because literally i am a different person than Jesus, who had his own relationship with God even as I have my own. If you've read what i wrote carefully, I accept Christ as the Incarnate Word the same as you. The difference i perceive is that, I believe that sincere followers of other faiths and creeds are granted equal measure of God's grace and presence, and eventual enlightenment, or entry to the Heaven Within, if you can see beyond the semantics; do you believe the same, or do you feel that people who do not follow Christ's teaching EXPLICITLY, are denied some level of spiritual experience? by explicit, i mean, for example, that they respect Christ's teaching, but do not feel themselves to be Christian; instead feeling themselves to be Buddhist, Taoist, whatever. What i imply, is that these people are IMPLICITLY followers of Christ, even if they have never even HEARD of Him! that's because God is everywhere, and especially among people who have not heard Christ's teaching, or have denied its current form as a mind-control cult propagated by foreigners, who have no real understanding of what they are proposing to teach. like it or not, the history of Christianity and Catholicism in particular is equally disgusting as inspiring; people executed, whole cultures slaughtered in Christ's name; the Inquisition, witch trials, Crusades; etc. -- finally: "if you raise a few people from the dead, walk on water, feed the multitudes with a few bread and fish, calm storms with a word, and then resurrect and appear to others after you die, I might reconsider " was not Jesus himself asked to perform miracles, to 'prove' himself? so you ask the same! Jesus gave miracles so that those who could not perceive the direct miracle of his Presence, might believe. "“Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.” "“This generation is an evil generation. It seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah. " "John 10:25 "I did tell you, but you do not believe. " -- lol, i will do you no miracles, my friend. To feel the breath is miracle enough ! -- The trouble many have, when confronted by someone who lives in the Kingdom, is their own preconception of how that person should behave. should a saint perform miracles? should a saint have supernatural powers ? should a saint accept Christ as their saviour? lol, the true joy is comprehending God within, nothing more or less. all words, all teachers, all teachings, all miracles, all traditions- nothing compares to this, nor can anything add to or take away from it; God is granted in fullness to all who Love Him (or Her! if you can accept that! ), with sincerity and devotion, regardless of creed or profession of faith, regardless even of whether they ever hear about Jesus or not! feel blessed, though, to have Jesus as your teacher; but follow his teaching more closely, pray without ceasing, and judge not those who believe differently than you. I neither judge you nor condemn you; i only encourage you to pray more deeply, fast more often, be more loving to your friends and family , and cultivate your relationship with God more fully. -- be in peace! | |||
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ps regarding social control , instutions, and dogma, which i brought up several times and you asked for more explanation of my meaning, it is this: a few hundred years ago, the nations of Europe were theocracies, or divine monarchies- the king ruled with the consent of the Church. if he did not have the consent of the Church, he faced possible war and some likely civil dissent. What did the king have to do to get Church consent? he had to place the Church as the sole spiritual authority in the land, and receive their blessing to rule, and occasionally follow their papal decrees . This meant legitimatizing 'witch hunts' , which summarily terrorized and often executed people deemed to be threats to the church authority, people who lived by different interpretations of Christ's teaching then the one promulgated in Church. This situation eventually led to the Protestant Reformation - people PROTESTING the dogmatic social control of the Catholic Church, and believing that a different interpretation of Christ's teaching was not only necessary but more correct than the corruption they felt had been done to that teaching by its institutionalization. -- Though those things happened a long time ago, they are still with us as a civilization. to this day, people are indoctrinated into the literal interpretation of Heaven as a place to go after you die, and Hell as a place of eternal torment for heretics and sinners. This is attempt at social control through fear ; those who follow the party line, are granted social privileges, and those who question it are often ridiculed and ostracized in covert forms. Is it a coincidence that every American president has been a Christian, or at least put on the show of being one by attending church occasionally and publicly, swearing on a bible at inauguration, etc? is it that God wants a president who professes faith in Christ, or that society demands it as a requirement for rulership? conformism has become more subtle than in the past but it is still with us. -- The humbling of Christianity does not come from 'tolerating' other religious paths; it comes from accepting them as equally valid, and part of God's larger plan. even through conflict with other faiths, and especially through it, are people forced to confront their quick desire to condemn those who believe differently, and their nation's inclination and justification to do violence against them. If Jesus had been president when 911 happened, would he have declared a War on Terror and proceeded to violently kill the perceived perpetrators? Yet how many Christians forgot the maxim to 'turn the other cheek' and instead went 'old testament style' and supported the invasion of Middle Eastern countries, an 'eye for an eye' agenda? this is social control: a culturally 'christian' nation, invading culturally 'muslim' nations, and justifying it by condemning their leadership as being 'evil'. my main point here, is that Christianity has been used as a tool , though never explicitly spoken so by the official government, to gather support for this war. the 'muslims' are not 'christians' ; they are 'different', possibly dangerous, definitely heretics; and they have something our society needs - oil - in abundance. -- ? again i reiterate, i believe in Christ, i simply don't believe He is properly understood by most so-called Christians; He has become an idol himself to them, a symbol to be worshipped blindly as the established authority-priests dictate the interpretation of his teaching in a way that supports their power structuring. | |||
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Greg: I'm too tired to say much after a long day working outside (42 balmy degrees!), but I wanted to say, yes, I think most Christians are aware of the history of religious persecution---Protestant on Catholic, Catholic on Protestant, Christian on Jew, and even Jew on Christian. And you're right: it's apalling. So I want to say I hear you about that. But still, you continue to greatly mischaracterize the church. There's so much you don't know. A few days ago I watched a movie that I remember from my childhood, "The Hiding Place", about Corrie Ten Boom and her father and sister hiding Jews during WWII, and the Ten Boom sisters' time in Ravensbruck. It's a moving but disturbing story. I'd recommend it if you can find it. I don't think you're as open to hearing other viewpoints as you seem to think you are. I need to crash on my couch...  | ||||
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Greg: I want to clarify that when I said you mischaracterize the church, I do mean the institutional church. You seem to have read church history to some extent, but you haven't read enough for your own good, and certainly not enough to make the judgments you do. | ||||
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Hi again, Greg. It seems the real rub for you is that you object to the Christian teaching that Jesus is the decisive incarnation of God, to the exclusion of Buddha, Lao Tzu and Mohammed (none of whom are considered divine incarnations by their followers) or the various Hindu avatars. To you, this discounts God's work in other traditions and the possibility of coming to union with God in those. I replied to all that by reassuring you that, at least in Catholicism, we recognize that God is at work in other religions, that they have their saints, mystics, etc. So your objection is based more on teachings by exclusivist, fundamentalistic sects in Christianity, but they are a minority in our religion. They have a strong presence on the Internet, so, if you're looking for an argument, you could take it to them and I know they'd oblige with righteous fury. As I also mentioned earlier, your understanding of Christianity tends toward gnosticism, and I would add Arianism as well. You also resist critique from the standpoint of doctrine, as you seem to see no connection between doctrine and spiritual practice, but, rather, that doctrines are a control mechanism. To prove this, you have to reach to the feudal systems of the middle ages. That's pathetic. Without doctrines (and I hope you read the thread on dogmas that I pointed you to) it's all up for grabs, there are no core beliefs or values, and one person's opinion is as good as another's. As you like quoting scripture to me when it serves your purpose, you should know that the New Testament itself is an expression of such core beliefs and values. Paul's letters also include doctrinal statements. Once we exclude or invalidate doctrinal critique from a discussion like this, the discussion become pointless, in my view.Now you want to start a discussion on terrorism, Iraq, turning the other cheek, etc. We've had considerable discussions on those topics in the Religion and Culture forum. Check them out sometime. It's complicated! Glad you enjoy your yoga practice, but, as you are a teacher, I hope you also learn to temper your criticisms of Christianity with more factual information. | |||
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Greg, Welcome to Shalom Place. Your letters to Phil remind me a lot of myself several years ago when I was very keenly pursuing the question of whether kundalini and enlightenment were the same as the Holy Spirit/Christ Jesus. I had many of the same objections and misunderstandings that you convey about the Christian faith as well as Christian mystical spirituality. I ranted: Christianity is exclusivist, it’s not fair, it’s just semantics, Jesus said the kingdom of God is within! And I hotly and ignorantly protested for perhaps some of the same reasons that brings you here. See, as I’ve shared elsewhere, I had a profound spiritual “awakening” in my mid-twenties. Sounds like you have too. I was drawn to meditation through Siddha Yoga and experienced the full-blown enlightenment thing in one of their ashrams shortly after receiving shaktipat from the guru. I saw/experienced that everything was like a shimmering, dancing mass of consciousness, no difference between subject and object, WOW, so mind-blowing, I was just frozen with shock to perceive that “I” was everywhere at once. Everywhere I went, there “I” was; the I AM THAT. I instantly surmised that I had seen/experienced GOD because I was swimming in this unity consciousness. I surmised that no religious structure, mental belief, philosophy, etc. was of any use as no two could be different from each other so who needs religion or even the mind! to find this glorious ONE-ness? And like you, I found select passages in the Bible that resonated with this new reality, which is clearly an *aspect* of God. Who else could do and be such a magnificent thing?! However, years later, I had a “born –again” experience during which I came to directly experience the Love of God through Christ. For a period, I was showered with what are called mystical graces, a variety of touches and raptures and some longer stretches of being “seized” by God in a kind of union I had not experienced before. This was and continues to be an entirely different spirituality from the now backdrop of unity consciousness. The I AM is still the Ground of Being in my ‘peripheral vision,’ so to speak, but my union with and growing in Christ is beyond that reality. It feels like I’m living in both the world—dual and non-dual--AND I'm walking in a New Creation with Christ. I know now that the Abba Father to whom Jesus cried out is most certainly not enlightenment. See, it’s when you’ve had BOTH kinds of mystical experiences that you, Greg, will be in a better position to understand what others are talking about across East/West. Presently, you seem to be making the classic error in conflating the experience of Eastern mysticism with Christian mysticism as you cannot yet differentiate between these two types of experiences and their meaning. I’ve discovered that it takes a deep humility to submit to new learning. You seem not interested in learning about Christian theology judging by you making the exact same error about Jesus “becoming one with God” after Phil pointed out your flat-out wrong notion. Your next post said about the exact same thing as though you didn’t read Phil’s comment or didn’t care about the correction! What’s up with that? You come across so passionate about your beliefs and so it must be that you’ve been very powerfully affected by your personal *encounter* with God. May I suggest that you might be better received and get more out of SP if you start by simply sharing your personal experiences of God, how you came to know God, how this has changed your behavior, etc. We enjoy those kinds of descriptions on the Transformative Experiences thread. In the event that you want to learn something here, you might read some of the threads here to get a perspective on who Phil is and the rich understandings and reflections that he and others have provided over the years before launching into tirades of how Christians have it all wrong. The threads that speak to some of your points and misunderstanding are under the topic “Christian Spirituality Issues”—see especially the first three as well as Mt’s “The Discreet Charm of Non-Duality.” Peace, Shasha | ||||
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Shasha, that's a very clear description of a kind of enlightement, mystical experience, one known very well in Hinduism. You've shared this on other threads, but I'm wondering if we could start off a new topic to discuss this more. I have a friend who's moved from Christian mysticism to this kind of unity consciousness and he finds the two compatible. Then there's Bernadette Roberts' descriptions of "pure subjectivity" and her contention (in the first, unrevised issue of "The Experience of No-Self") that the Hindu experience goes beyond what either Christianity or Buddhism describes. It does seem that once one has such an enlightenment, they pretty much settle on this as the "ultimate" experience, which makes your own journey all the more unique. So, if you don't mind, could I excerpt that quote above and use it for another topic? Oh, and very good post above. | |||
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Shasha, thanks from me too for taking the time to write to Greg about this again. I'm curious, and trying to respectfully, lovingly understand where people are coming from with their different experiences and different religions, while becoming more deeply secure in God's hand upon my own soul. Your clarity in talking about your experiences is a real gift. So I'd like to hear more, too, from all perspectives, so long as it's genuine dialogue. | ||||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:... So, if you don't mind, could I excerpt that quote above and use it for another topic?[QUOTE] Go right ahead, Phil. | ||||
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Dear Greg, I admit I'm impressed by the kindness and hospitality of other participants of SP towards your posts. I just feel quite angry when I read them here. The anger is not about what you say about Christianity, because it's not Christianity you write about, as Phil pointed out, it's only your distorted idea of what Christianity is. My anger is about the fact that you come here not to share your opinions and beliefs (which you are, of course, invited to do), but to preach and teach from the point of some higher wisdom. Some people here on the forum had powerful enlightenment, non-dual, awakening experiences, and they can conceptualize them with great clarity. But many people here also do believe - enlightened or not - that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, and that the Church is His body, animated by the Holy Spirit. It's faith - you either have it, or not. I agree with Shasha that it's best for you to share with us your experience of God or enlightenment. I'd very much like to read it. Then we can have different interpretations of the experience, agree to disagree and be at peace. I also used to believe that everyone can be "one with God" just like Christ, and that resurrection is a merely spiritual process, and that "all paths lead to one Truth". And I didn't like the dogmas - "I only believe in what I see" kind of attitude. But then I had experiences of God's love, in which enlightenment-like states were marginalized and which brought me back to the Church and its teaching, its dogmas. I had many experiences which confirmed Catholic dogmas - I described most of them somewhere on the forum. Now I tend to experience both the "Eastern" states of consciousness, and the strictly "Christian" relationship with the Lord. If I had to choose (I don't think I have to), I'd choose the relational experience over samadhi/enlightenment without hesitation. I'd choose to be totally non-enlightened, but to have faith and love towards the Holy Trinity. I do not want to be perfectly enlightened, if it could make me abandon my faith in Jesus in favor of oneness with the ineffable, impersonal Absolute. if you are eager to talk with Christians, you might consider: what is this thing called "faith" that we treasure so much, more than any enlightenment? How do we experience it? How does it change our lives? You seem to identify our faith with some blind, irrational acceptance of religious authority. Then, Greg, you just don't know what faith is and you've never experienced it yourself. It's like enlightenment - you experience it or not, if not, you cannot possibly imagine what it is like. So I'm angry, because I have a strong impression that in this discussion you place yourself somewhere on a higher plane than we are. It doesn't make communication better. But I'd really like to hear your spiritual story, if you choose to say something about your experience, not about our beliefs and our religious community as you see it. p.s. Should I say sth like: eat more, get some sleep, stop praying 24/7, read some theology, and come back to share your story? | ||||
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fair enough all.. my apologies for stereotyping so blatantly; i appreciate the responses given through this thread; i am not asking anyone to abandon their faith in Jesus; I am aware many of the Catholic Church's worse crimes were hundreds of years ago; i am not advocating yoga / enlightenment OVER Christianity, just a redefinition (to this crowd) of Jesus' teaching, as opposed to the one commonly taught in most Christian institutions; -- sometimes when everyone agrees with everyone, in a closed social group, they can feel like they must be right because they all agree with each other. That's what this message forum group seems like. If you don't like that assessment, well too bad. Phil has done some interesting work attempting to integrate kundalini experience discussion with Christian theology. i applaud his attempt but frankly find it disturbing that he is trying to separate it from the religious tradition that preserved it for countless thousands of years. Attempting to explain kundalini in purely energetic terms; immature and erroneous. there was a point in Christian / Catholic history where monks and nuns, living incredibly pure lives, were being burned alive because they reported that the 'Devil' was visiting them daily and nightly, causing their genitals to be stimulated and arousing them to incredible orgasmic sensations. The authorities were so stupid that when the holy spirit (kundalini) actually began to awaken and begin the internal transmutation process they killed their own people! -- many christians believe in reincarnation. just not on this message board. if you find them wrong, or heretics, that's your problem. the cultures that have preserved the mystical traditions, that have a wealth of knowledge about kundalini, from masters that have COMPLETED THE PROCESS, explain in detail how it fits in with God's plan. go to http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen3.html for some more on this, (if the page is up) i'm not going to explain it all for you. if you can really doubt that the Jews and Jesus believed in reincarnation, after Jesus explicitly stated that John the Baptist WAS the prophet Elijah, you're just being obstinate, like a child covering its ears with its hands. -- about my own experiences? indescribable. God is real. God cares about everyone, equally. God is in me, and you, and even people like Adolf Hitler. (the difference is, some people listen to God within, some people don't). -- you are in the process of becoming a Christ yourself, if you can truly comprehend what that means. We are all equally the Sons and Daughters of God, ('ye are gods' (scripture cannot be broken), some of us are just farther along this path then others. Faith and Works COMBINED eventually cause GRACE to reveal this to you. Wisdom results from grace granting divine vision, so one knows the truth of the causal manifest universe completely, and the eternity of the soul thoughout the illusory experience of time and reincarnation, until liberation (salvation) is achieved/granted. -- to explicitly explain what i have been blessed to witness would just confuse everyone. suffice it to say, that when God feels you are ready to see the truth, you will see it, and you will have no doubt whatsoever that God, a personal loving God, is controlling all things, directing all destinies, and offering all peace. Jesus came from this Lord, as have I, and as have YOU. Jesus never saved a single man from sin. Jesus saves people from ignorance, and inspires them to stop committing sins. This is how Jesus helps people. Because people have freewill, they must choose to stop committing sins. Jesus ATONED for our sins; to help people forgive each other and themselves for those sins which are 'unto death', and eventually inspire all conflict-driven humans to stop their cycle of violence begetting violence. (sorry, can't tell you when that happens). Until people understand the ATONEMENT properly, they misunderstand Christ's sacrifice, and believe that simply believing on him is a 'free pass' to 'heaven' ; this erroneous belief is the root of the corruption of insitutional Christianity. faith without works is dead... and the only works that matter, are learning non-action (stopping the commitment of spiritual error, or sin) and righteous action ( continual worship/meditation or selfless service) . these two, plus faith inspired by LOVE OF GOD , will eventually lead one into all truth. -- -- by the way, Buddhists believe Buddha to be THE incarnation of the THE supreme consciousness of the universe ( GOD ) Vaishnavas believe Krishna to be THE incarnation of GOD ; --- i only bring this up, because each of these groups believe exactly what Christians believe about Christ- that he is GOD Himself, the LORD. is it to much to believe that GOD may have incarnated HIMSELF/HERSELF numerous times throughout history? (yes, stretch that mind, GOD is every bit as much SHE as HE, the Mother of us all) ; and that those other incarnations fulfilled a pivotal role in the development of other cultures BESIDES the Judeo-Christian West? These beliefs don't invalidate or belittle Christ; they support HIM , as the most recent Incarnation of the LORD, revealing a pattern of God's grace to ALL mankind, and a special message for each. The only conflict is with men, not the message; each Teacher asks his disciples to live peacefully, in harmony with each other, praying and meditating daily, forgiving each other's errors, looking within to find true happiness, and renounce lust, or earthly pleasure. -- but people love to argue... instead of looking at similarities between the religions, they squabble over the semantic details of their differences, and their interpretations as their external religious authorities have explained them. -- | |||
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Greg, I can see that you've decided not to share your spiritual EXPERIENCE, but your BELIEFS AND OPINIONS instead. From what you've written I'm afraid you're not able or not willing to engage in rational dialogue, because you're not addressing what anyone here says to you, you just press "play" on your mental CD and off you go with your "teachings". This time I don't feel angry at all. It rather seems kind of hilarious to me, that on the basis of your personal experience (which you didn't say a word about) you're so sure that you know more about Jesus, God, Western culture, the absolute Truth than anyone else. Greg, you're attacking our alleged fanatism, fundamentalism and dogmatism, and, at the same time, you're sounding much like a fundamentalist and dogmatist, just your dogmas are different. What you believe is mostly hindu advaita wedanta. That's fine with me. But what is your purpose in being here at SP? Certainly, you didn't come to learn a different perspective or to dialogue. Ok, I'm giving up. | ||||
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greg, for a supposedly enlightened person, you come across as arrogant and condescending. I don't disagree with all that you wrote and think you don't know much about this forum if you believe we always agree with each other. There are a few points I'd like to reply to, most of which I've already said: a. You believe many others have been incarnations of God. Fine. Christians don't believe this. We say Jesus is God's only-begotten Son, and we have our reasons for doing so. I don't think you're more broad-minded for believing otherwise, nor that we're more closed to acknowledging that God has been at work in other world religions. b. You write: Phil has done some interesting work attempting to integrate kundalini experience discussion with Christian theology. i applaud his attempt but frankly find it disturbing that he is trying to separate it from the religious tradition that preserved it for countless thousands of years. Attempting to explain kundalini in purely energetic terms; immature and erroneous. I do not try to explain kundalini in "purely energetic terms." That's such a simplistic summary of my reflection on the meaning of this process as to convince me that you've done little more than skim my writings. c. many christians believe in reincarnation. just not on this message board. if you find them wrong, or heretics, that's your problem. Or maybe it's your problem that you do. Again, I wonder if you're interested in the reasoning behind the Church's rejection of reincarnation (I've already commented on Origen; he was one theologian advancing an hypothesis, not expressing a consensus). Also, why is it that no Christian saints or mystics have reported past lives if this is supposedly such an indisputably universal phenomenon? if you can really doubt that the Jews and Jesus believed in reincarnation, after Jesus explicitly stated that John the Baptist WAS the prophet Elijah, you're just being obstinate, like a child covering its ears with its hands. How marvelous that you take Scripture so literally, except, of course, when it comes to Jesus saying things like "no one comes to the Father except through Me," or "unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man, you cannot have life in you." Elijah was gifted with a charism or gift of prophecy, and it was this gift of the Spirit that was present in John the Baptist as well. d. to explicitly explain what i have been blessed to witness would just confuse everyone. What ego inflation! You know nothing of the depth of experiences that people here have known. e. Jesus saves people from ignorance, and inspires them to stop committing sins. This is how Jesus helps people. Thanks for straightening that out for us. And here all this time I thought he forgave my sins, fed me with his risen body and blood, and breathed his Holy Spirit into my soul. Silly me! f. Until people understand the ATONEMENT properly, they misunderstand Christ's sacrifice, and believe that simply believing on him is a 'free pass' to 'heaven' ; this erroneous belief is the root of the corruption of insitutional Christianity. Another of your silly, stupid, misinformed, straw-man arguments. Why? Because you do not even begin to address the manner in which the atonement reconciled the fallen human race with God. It's about more than inspiring us to forgive one another, but a deep metaphysical reconciliation at work in and through his body. As for the "cheap faith" argument, no Christian denomination teaches what you write about this being a "free pass" to heaven. Greg, I won't be replying to you anymore as you're too misinformed on too many issues and you're, basically, not open to learning anything as you already know it all. Phil | |||
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By the way, Phil, I've heard many times about Origen teaching reincarnation. I wonder when does it come from, since nowhere in scholarship I came across anything like that. I haven't studied original texts, but in the secondary literature there's only about Origen idea of preexistence of souls, and than about the fall of souls into bodies (a Platonic view, of course), and than about gradual spiritual development which continues after death. But I don't think that he taught that human soul reincarnates. There's already a hierarchy of spirits before they incarnate, so there's no purpose in such transmigration. Perhaps, they interpret his idea of apokatastasis and numerous worlds which are created by God and then destroyed through fire? It is possible that one soul incarnates in every one of the countless universes, but not many times in one universe, I guess. Also, Origen believed that only in THAT particular universe some spirits have fallen into bodies, and in others not, so there's only need of Christ's incarnation and resurrection in this universe, because of the pride of some spirits. As I said I'm not sure about all this, because I know Origen second hand, but I don't think that those New Age people who "quote" him on reincarnation, have studied what he actually wrote about this. His works surived in fragments or Latin translations, so it's not easy job, of course. I wonder did anyone actually wrote anything about contemporary Christian Gnosticism and its relationship to the ancient one. The same arguments are repeated today, although New Age people don't read Valentinian or Marcion. They just think along the same lines. | ||||
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From the good old Catholic Encyclopedia of 1911 (still reliable on some subjects but dated on others): http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10234d.htm "St. Jerome tells us that metempsychosis was a secret doctrine of certain sectaries in his day, but it was too evidently opposed to the Catholic doctrine of Redemption ever to obtain a settled footing. It was held, however, in a Platonic form by the Gnostics, and was so taught by Origen in his great work, Peri archon." | ||||
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We already have a couple of lengthy discussions on reincarnation on the board: - https://shalomplace.org/eve/for...10135/m/65310765/p/1 - https://shalomplace.org/eve/for...72410135/m/463109981 The topic doesn't interest me much, although it did, at one time. The kind of "evidence-for" is subjective and incapable of verifying objectively. Also, the fact that Christian saints and mystics haven't come upon past life experiences suggests that the people who do so believed in reincarnation to begin with. | |||
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