It isn't surprising to see many suffering from Katrina's devastation questioning their faith. My own childhood was devastating, a place of terror much of the time. The idea of grace, of a loving Father, was pretty abstract in that environment. When your heart closes for protection, faith becomes an arid affair at best.

For the past 15 years the notion of karma has seemed intuitively sound to me. Perhaps it serves, on some level of consciousness, as a container for such terrors that can't be rationalized. I don't see God involved in natural disasters, or natural events for that matter, except as that which the creation arises and returns within, with death being no different, ultimately, than life for Him ("In Him we live and move and have our being). His Son enshrines that truth through birth, death, resurrection and ascension.

"The poor you will always have with you."

It takes some significant survival security to maintain an ushaken faith, but new faith, a deeper, more visceral one, is discovered as people are dying, a Presence latent right there in the pain itself. God knows we are never forsaken; yet we are free, and must discover this ourselves. In-between is the despair. Seeing others you love suffering and not being able to aid them worsens it.

What I'm left wondering about is how those with little individuation, such as often is the case with the poor, will manage to restore a faith that depends so much on external signs, in that dichotomous world of "blessing" versus "curse." In the work I do, one sees people, more often poor, who feel that if God loved them, they would be healed. In such families, love often has many conditions, and so God's love often takes this spectre.

It isn't surprising to see many suffering from Katrina's devastation questioning their faith.

Personally, I feel best about things when I think that I�m pretty much on my own. Anything above that (above nature's brutality) is a bonus. It's not even a "God helps those who help themselves" philosophy. It's simply a recognition (at least as far as I can see) that our little sufferings in life are random, at best. If one can sort of "stack the deck" a bit with faith and prayer, then that's better than nothing�I hope.

The world makes some sort of sense when looked at scientifically, but I don't think it does so well when looked at philosophically, ethically, and/or religiously. For all intents and purposes, we could be living in a quite stunningly beautiful chamber of horrors. It makes little sense to split heaven and hell. This is heaven and hell. More heavenly for some. More hellish for other. And personally, it doesn't do my heart or mind much good to try to make too much sense of it all.

But there the world IS and thus one HAS to make some sort of sense of it all. It would be strange, if not insane, not to try to do so. In the end, all one has is hope, which is another way of saying, "God, this roller coaster ride you call Earth better be worth it."

Maybe I've never mentioned this work. It's an elaboration on chapter 5 of this work. Without a perspective of that kind, maybe supplemented with a dash of Teilhard or process philosophy, it's easy to see how one's image of God could play a role in keeping one locked into viewing external events as directly caused by God (or the devil).

I suppose the people who simply waited for help in New Orleans showed faith; those too who resisted any urge towards evil in a circumstance where law and order had broken down, those who were guided by conscience, showed faith. The signs of God's blessing are implanted in our hearts, are evident in our actions when no social, political or moral restraints influence them. A huge test nevertheless but in the end anyone who is thankful for a life spared in such circumstances has a root of faith in them. It's up to us to realise that and resist any temptation to curse God and die.

Without a perspective of that kind, maybe supplemented with a dash of Teilhard or process philosophy, it's easy to see how one's image of God could play a role in keeping one locked into viewing external events as directly caused by God (or the devil).

I can�t remember if I�ve read your book, "God and the Problem of Suffering". But I�m sure I�ve got that sittin� �round here in pdf somewhere. It might be worth another read.

From my perspective (and it may be a quite narrow one not shared by many�remember, I ain�t trying to sell anyone my religion, just expressing some ideas), it seems we have to grow up from God like we have to grow up from our parents. At some point we just have to be a big boy or big girl and accept a philosophy that is perhaps similar to what WC said in the opening post: I don't see God involved in natural disasters, or natural events for that matter, except as that which the creation arises and returns within, with death being no different� That is to say, we have to accept that life is hard, often cruel, and that ends (at least on this earth) in death. Nature should perhaps be thought of more like a Newtonian determinant universe in that nature is an entity that has been "wound up" and we are inside it as it is running.

With no disrespect meant to Phil or any of the others who have devoted much skill and intellect to the problem of suffering, I�m pretty sure I could read his book a dozen times and not be satisfied. I�ve yet to read any account of suffering that leaves me thinking "Oh�how nice." Suffering is suffering and it is quite unpleasant and does not, generally, leave one with endearing feelings toward anything or anybody.

Ultimately, at least for me, the "having faith" part of the equation just means that I can�t figure things out, will never be able to figure things out, and thus assent to something so that I don�t go crazy in the meantime, or I know that there are answers. I just don�t know what those answers are. I know that there is love and goodness, I just don�t know what bastard or bastards is responsible for so much of the senseless pain and cruelty. Perhaps we hope via our faith, reasoning and traditions, to release God from such culpability, but I�m guessing the real story is not so sweet. Just as we bring children into this world willingly, and we know that they will suffer, so may a god. And there may be quite selfish reasons involved as well as the willingness to share life and joy.

It's up to us to realise that and resist any temptation to curse God and die.

Stephen, that�s probably good advice, but surely God has at least as thick a skin as George Bush. If a few New Orleans survivors are expressing some anger at Him, can He not take such rebukes? I would think he can and does so willingly. Wouldn�t stuff like that just go with the job?

My philosophy lately is leaning toward the idea that if we too readily split up and divide the concept of good and evil that we exacerbate the problem. The concept of God is that he IS love. 100% pure love, thousand or millions of times great than the love a mother has for her child. But that is difficult to reconcile with reality. Surely there are mothers who would never subject her children to certain things even while cognizant of free will. And so, at least for me, the Mystery continues. The suffering continues. The chaos continues. And faith in Something continues.

"If a few New Orleans survivors are expressing some anger at Him, can He not take such rebukes? I would think he can and does so willingly."

Of course you're right, Brad, although I can't speak for George Bush. I'm sure God is totally grieved by the suffering He sees ; I'm sure George W. is pretty upset too.

Anger doesn't imply a loss of faith but it might indicate a loss of perpective (easy for me to say from the comfort of my deckchair). How can anyone be expected to see the bigger picture when their life has been blown away? But it is precisely that ability which helps us rise from a place of suffering to a place of compassion. I see my neighbours loss and suddenly the loss is shared and I'm open to loving my neighbour as myself. And there's the foundation on which we rebuild our lives - shared grief, empathy, compassion.

We might also lose sight of the consolation and comfort on offer. This, to me, is where God reveals His true nature, not in rewarding good or punishing evil, but in consoling those who are in pain, comforting those who are suffering. I want to be open to these gifts in my life.

Anger doesn't imply a loss of faith but it might indicate a loss of perpective (easy for me to say from the comfort of my deckchair). How can anyone be expected to see the bigger picture when their life has been blown away? But it is precisely that ability which helps us rise from a place of suffering to a place of compassion.

I think that�s very well said, Stephen. Very well said. Without a larger perspective we become nothing but animals. There was a story I read earlier about conditions inside the Astrodome. Things were getting out of hand. Violence and panic were imminent. The few National Guardsman who were inside could not gain control. But a bunch of ladies started singing hymns and that quieted everyone down.

Like it or not, there is a spiritual perspective to life. We can live with just our animal natures and depend on our intellect to somehow divine what is right from moment to moment. I know that�s how a number of people in the west are trying to live.

There�s something about chaos and pain that, strangely, strengthens faith and spirituality. I don�t know if life does or can hold any more meaning than to be able to offer another human being comfort in the midst of tragedy.

I think this whole topic is nothing but a strange mix of paradoxes.

One side of pain and suffering is asking "Why, God, why?" (Included in that is also the phrasing of the question as "%*&@, God, %*&@"). But another response goes as such (from "The Divine Conspiracy"):

quote:

Saint Clare, won in her youth to a life of complete devotion to Jesus by Saint Francis of Assisi, had these for her last words: "Lord God, blessed be thou for having created me!"�

Just previously, as she lay near death, Brother Rainaldo had exhorted her to bear her infirmities with patience. She replied, "Dearest brother, ever since I have known the grace of my Lord Jesus Christ through his servant Francis, no suffering has troubled me, no penance has been hard, no sickness too arduous."