I think we could use some drifting in a different direction, because I've an impression that both sides just repeat the same arguments. At one point, I had a wild thought, actually, a quote from Fiodor Dostojewski: "If I was to choose between Christ and the truth, I'd choose Christ". Wayne, it may sound crazy to you, but if you were ever in love, you know that people in love are not particularly logical...

Caneman, that's an interesting point. There are probably even more things that God didn't want to tell us in the Bible - like other worlds, aliens, or things of the kind. We just have to mind our own business. Like Aslan says in one of the NARNIA stories - "I tell everyone only THEIR OWN story, not somebody's else".

Caneman

Very interesting you should make mention of the Nephilim.
Most Christians believe that the Bible was either the �the word of God� or was �inspired� by God, and has been the pre-eminent authority of our allegiance to Him and the understanding of our creation by Him. They say the Bible tells us that we were created in God�s likeness and in His image. This, of course, implies that God �looks� like us, how else could we be created in �His image�. The irony of this, of course, is that we do in fact come from an ineffable and formless Creator and as Dr. Newton reveals from his subjects, we too are formless �blobs� of intelligent waves of light energy born into a �non-physical� world of soul/spirits (one subject gives us a very detailed account of how we are actually �birthed� from an undifferentiated mass of undulating energy-see his �Destiny of Souls�). The biblical account was not, however, referring to our true spiritual nature and identity as souls but only to the host we would be entering for a temporary stay here on Earth.
The literal reading of Genesis in the Old Testament, however, even in the incorrect translation to English from the ancient Hebrew does not actually state what most Christian�s believe it does. If you pick up a copy of the original English translation commissioned by King James in the 1500�s, which is the �source� of all later English translations/versions, you will note something quite contrary to that interpretation. The first reference and version (there is actually more than one in the same text, by the way) of the creation of �Man� is the following from Genesis1:26-27: �God said, Let us make men in our image, after our likeness�. Now, Sir Francis Bacon and his group of scholars (those commissioned by King James to translate the anchor Hebrew text and the later Greek Gospels of the Old and New Testaments into English), some 24 in number, were very learned men of their time and certainly were aware that they had used �plural� pronouns not only for God but also for the product of His creation, man. They also were aware that the Hebrew word they were translating as �God� was also a plural term, �Elohim�. So, first they mistranslate the Hebrew plural term of Elohim as the singular,�God�, and then proceed to substitute this singular subject with plural pronouns for the creator and the product of the creation, which most Christian�s believe was, of course, Adam, one man or singular individual. So why the plural, men, in that first very important declaration of our coming into being? Why do you suppose this mistake was made? Or, why was not their mistranslation at least a consistent one? We can only assume they were attempting to be as �faithful� to the literal meanings of the text as possible, particularly in regard to these primordial acts for which all later �faith� would depend. The only way to get at the truth of this is to read and understand in context the Hebrew version, which after all was the original (reference Sitchin�s �Genesis Revisited� and his earlier work, �The Twelfth Planet�). Were these confusing statements direct revelations of the writers of Genesis or might there be some earlier source for the information imparted to us? All of Genesis was initially believed in literally, of course, as the �Word of God�, then after the Reformation and subsequent Enlightenment they were taken as metaphoric by many religious scholars/theologians and finally again re-interpreted literally by a recent resurgence in Christian Fundamentalism and Evangelism.
This problem of pluralism appears to be resolved in the next sentence, after that initial confusing declaration by God, which should be at least translated as �gods� or �the gods said�, the suggestion to �make men� was carried out as: �And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him, male and female created He them.� So, we go from a suggestion to create by plural creators to the execution of it by a singular one, although the same plural term, Elohim, was mistranslated here from the Hebrew text. Then, there is still the sense that �they� or one of �them� created more than just one man and one woman since the plural men was used in the proposal for creation, but more importantly, the act of creating the two genders of man was carried out simultaneously. This, of course, contradicts not only what most Christian�s believe, but is complicated by a later or second version of the creation in Chapter Two of Genesis; which has become the favorite, albeit requires ignoring the first version altogether. In it we are told that after God made Adam He soon realized, almost as an after thought, how lonely it was for �the Adam� to be without a mate; a female companion was then crafted from one of his ribs. This was the first sexist action of an obviously male deity and the first indication that most of our past from the very beginning has been His-story.
So, what are the real implications of these mistranslations, grammatically incorrect plural substitutions and two very different versions of our being created from the �dust� of the Earth and then one from the rib of the other?; or, as one might say in the current vernacular, �What�s really going on?� Who these Elohim were, as well as the source material from which the Biblical Genesis was written, is the key to a whole new understanding of what it means to be homo sapien sapien (some now believe this is an incorrect scientific species designation) and possibly why we only think of ourselves as physical beings and not immortal light beings of intelligent energy from an unseen divine Source.
Both Creationists and Evolutionists will not be particularly happy with what Zecharia Sitchen uncovered and has revealed in answering the above questions and many more in his multiple volume series called The Earth Chronicles. It was in fact, not only the mistranslation of the word Elohim as a singular deity that troubled him from his days as a school boy when he had challenged his teacher and which subsequently led to his life long quest for understanding of who these �gods� were, but there was also another word translated as �Giants� in Genesis from the Hebrew, Nephelim, which had piqued his curiosity to even a greater degree. Although he eventually discovered a number of other very important and key words that had been misinterpreted from the Hebrew texts, none would be as significant or as momentous as WHO these �gods� were and the realization that they were most definitely not the monotheistic Creator of the universe all subsequent generations of Judeo-Christians have thought to this day.

There is much more, but is off topic unless others are interested in some of the very possible connections of these early interventionist and creator of the "ADAMU" with our current "visitor". By the way, only discovered through current abduction rearch using the regressive hyposis I discuss in previous posts.

Your Homo Erectus Nephilimus Brother,

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

I am quite familiar with all of the subject matter that you have shared from the beginning of this discussion, even the parts about the Aliens, Nephelim, Elohim and Adam and Eve. These thoughts are not original and have been discussed to various degrees by many authors, each adding their own opinions and theories to the pile.

Again...I must say, that while I absolutely love and agree with Mateusz, that it is love that holds me to the truth that I embrace...You and the authors that you quote may be right. I think the information is incorrect and I would go as far as to say that I know in my heart that the information is incorrect, but I must concede scientific propability indicates that I may be incorrect in what I think I know

As to suggesting that demons are aliens, my experience says otherwise. What do you think of the following account:

I had recently given my life to Jesus, along with a good number of friends who had been my companions on LSD and marijuana trips into altered states of consciousness. We were attending a prayer meeting in the home of a retired missionary/pastor. At one point a friend of mine began to speak. "I thi...(his voice started sounding strangled)..I think (strangled whisper that refused to leave his throat)...I think...that....I.....have a....demon....in....me (his voice was strained, strangled and soft throughout the whole statement, as though he were speaking while being strangled). The pastor replied that he, his wife and a mature Christian woman would pray for deliverance. They asked him to follow them into one of the rooms in the house. "No, I think I should go home now", my friend replied in a perfectly normal voice. "I'm fine, don't worry". The Pastor encouraged my friend that all they were going to do was pray for him and that he should go with them into the room. He led my friend into the room along with the other two ladies and they closed the door. After a little while we heard them begin to pray and as they prayed my friend began to laugh insanely, the kind of "mad scientist" laugh from the movies. After a while the laughing stoped and some time after that they came out of the room.

another:

My father-in-law (an Indian man - my wife is Indian) is a lay pastor who did a lot of work in the Indian areas in South Africa. Hinduism contains a lot of occult practices and hence complaints of possesion and evil spirits is quite common. He relays accounts of praying with people who cough up balls of hair and levitate while being held down by the prayer group. His father, a baptist pastor would command that the leaving spirit break the room window once it had been cast out of the person and upon leaving the person the window would shatter.

I have met a number of people, involved with the drug scene in South Africa, that were led to adopt a spiritual understanding of the drug experience. They were all taught certain metaphysical and spiritual lessons about God, the world and their drug practice that would find easy acceptance in New Age spirituality and the collection of doctrines it has adopted (a mix of Easter metaphysics and mystical spiritualism). Many of these people end up having direct encounters with Evil spirits that result in their acceptance of Jesus Christ as God and Saviour. I haven't written a book or taken time to collect these accounts, but I am sure that I could fill many volumes with the conversion accounts of spiritual drug users and their experience of deception and acceptance that they were being deceieved to keep them from relationship with Jesus.

Demons are not stupid, neither are they insane lunatics running around aimlessly. They are intellegent spiritual beings, led my one of God's highest creations turned evil. They are supremely evil and should not be overlooked in reference to their effect on this world.

I am not afraid of them, I am secure in Christ, so do not take my words as indication that I fear demons in some way. I have encountered evil without the covering of Christ and it is not something to be triffled with or taken lightly. In Christ we do not need to fear the devil, though not even the Arch Angel Michael considers demons something to meddle with without the covering of God (see the book of Jude).

These are some of my own touch points regarding evidence that I think requires a decent look. You have your own accounts that you find convincing.

Once more thing, I'm repeating myself to make the point clear...hypnosis is an altered state of conciousness, very similar to other altered states of conciousness such as drugs, meditation and trances...I beleive that altered states may be entered into with the covering of Christ (such as those states experienced through Christian prayer and contemplation), but that when done so without it the experience has many dangers.

I really do beleive, through experience, that one is more suceptible to the influence of demons in these states and that while not everybody will be effected, someone who has incurred a great deal of spiritual attachement to the demonic through their practice (such as I did and perhaps such as a hypnotherapist does) may negatively effect those who come into contact with that person. (If Stephen were taking part in this conversation I am sure he would agree regarding this influence factor as he too has personally experienced this - also in relation to drugs [and kundalini])

Hi guys. Yes, some repetitions happening. I don't have much to say that I haven't already yapped.

Re. the Sons of God wedding the daughters of men passage, very few biblical exegetes think those are references to angels or ETs. I can provide details, but the nature of the passage is such that it has no relation to what came before or after and seems to be more a random insertion of a piece of an old story. Don't get too excited about it. Not that I'm opposed to a universe with ETs . . . who've visited . . . Angels, however, are usually considered spiritual, immaterial and genderless.

Phil, Jacques and Mateusz.

I would love to refute, Jacques, your insistence of evil spirits, demons and the arch enemy and leader of these malevelent "angels" which seem to be required for the archetype (collective myth) of good vs evil and the battle of the angels of light over the angels of darkness inherent to all religious experience and belief. I also believe there is such a universal and eternal battle and struggle but it is soley an INTERNAL one and its EXTERNAL MANIFESTATIONS(negative mind-created energies with no REAL substance) of devils and demons are our own outward projections of the soul's attempt to influence and control our primitive desires and overcome the separateness and fear of our false ego surface self...the pretender and usurper of our true primary identity as eternal spiritual beings of the One Source, God.
Phil, I don't see the "repetitions happening" that you state. We actually went in a totally different direction with the Nephilim and origins of Genesis. And, Jacques, your smug dismissal that these thoughts (in my post) are "not original" seems to be the customary Christian denial of anything contrary to YOUR 2000 to 3000 year old "thoughts" from ONE scriptural source. A rather hollow and inane characterization of information only uncovered and investigated in the last 40 years. Are you implying you are adding anything NEW to the discussion when the bases of all you TRUTH is from the same ancient scriptural source, apart from your own anecdotal information.
Phil, what would you expect from "Biblical exegetes". What Sitchin chronicles in his rereading of ancient Mesopotamian clay tablets shakes the very foundation of the biblical creation and the identity of the OT Biblegods. What evidence do you and your "Biblical exegetes" have to refute Sitchin's Summerian revelations regarding the Annunaki and their role in establishing human civilization? Not to mention clear texts which state their genetic intervention of man's evolution and creation of the ADAMU and its introduction to the E.DIN? Have you read and investigated this "not original" evidence? Love to hear the sound and reasoned arguments for your's and Jacques' flippant dismissals.

Phil, if you feel we need to start a new thread for this discussion or you consider it to controversial to debate, please advise. But, please spare me the 2 word dismissals of Newton's and Sitchin's life's work. The new and profoundly establishment-order challenging evidence they bring to the debate deserves more than a terse exclusion. Or, is their really NO DEBATE here...and your "truth" cannot be seriously challenged regardless of how factual the contrary evidence is? Please tell me I'm wrong.

Your Spiritual Brother,

Wayne

Here's a scholar who believes Sitchin deserves scrutiny, and provides it.


www.sitchiniswrong.com

quote:

What Sitchin chronicles in his rereading of ancient Mesopotamian clay tablets shakes the very foundation of the biblical creation and the identity of the OT Biblegods. What evidence do you and your "Biblical exegetes" have to refute Sitchin's Summerian revelations regarding the Annunaki and their role in establishing human civilization? Not to mention clear texts which state their genetic intervention of man's evolution and creation of the ADAMU and its introduction to the E.DIN? Have you read and investigated this "not original" evidence? Love to hear the sound and reasoned arguments for your's and Jacques' flippant dismissals.

I don't think anyone has ever said that the ancient Hebrews were without influence by neighboring cultures, nor that their mythology emerged out of the blue. Their unique contribution is the monotheistic emphasis and their sense of being a people called to covenant with God.

As for what I would expect from biblical exegetes . . .
- sound scholarship
- consideration of cultural and linguistic factors
- archaeological knowledge
- historical considerations
- appreciation for the theological intuitions communicated
. . . that's what we generally get from most of them.

Wayne, with all due respect, you don't seem to have much understanding of the basis of Christian beliefs and practices, nor of faith. You also set up a debate situation where your dialogue partners are required to provide empirical proof for spiritual and metaphysical assumptions, all the while holding that your position is correct, unassailable, and factually based.

Carry on, if you like, but I've no interest in proving anything I believe, nor disproving anything you do.

quote:

Originally posted by w.c.:
[qb] Here's a scholar who believes Sitchin deserves scrutiny, and provides it.


www.sitchiniswrong.com [/qb]

Wow! Good find!

Great! That is pretty devastating.
The questions posed by Michael Heiser seem very reasonable, indeed.

Anyone care to respond on behalf of Mr Sitchin or his theories -- given that he himself remains curiously silent?

Wayne, do you care to give it a shot?

I was not attempting to make this personal and I did not take your terse remarks about the material I have been expounding to be an attack on me-I have heard these same dismissals quite ofen with no real corresponding attempt to seriously argue its demerits. I guess I was hoping for a reasoned discourse regarding this new evidence. I have NEVER claimed that these new (very recent in the scheme of human history-about 40 to 50 years)revelations CANNOT be refuted by contrary evidence based upon alternate or opposing "facts" and empirical confirmational data. None of what I have been discussing is irrefutable...I am open to any and all information with at least a semblance of confirmational evidence for its veracity.
I do have an "understanding of the basis of Christian beliefs and practices,(and)of faith." I HAVE BEEN GIVING YOU NEW EVIDENCE WHICH CALLS INTO QUESTION EXACTLY THE "BASIS" OF THOSE BELIEFS!!!!
I cannot question your FAITH but I can point out to you that there is new evidence which may well undermine previous "truths" upon which your BELIEFS are based...and then it is up to you as to whether you wish to change your FAITH in them. Again, are Jesus' words calling upon all of us in Matthew 7:7-8 just empty rhetoric: "7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" And, the corollary to this passage is "31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." from John 8:31-32,
You may find this difficult to believe or accept, but I consider myself a disciple of Jesus, one Yeshua ben Josef. I have sought to understand and to incorporate the many spiritual truths attributed to him into my life. I do not believe I am required or bound by any self-proclaimed earthly "authority" to accept his later deification or belong to any church proclaiming it. I believe I have the inalienable right to recieve Divine wisdom and truth and determine for myself what his truth is for me. Since Jesus did not ask his followers to become "Christians" or accept any later declarations set forth by others who "adopted" (some say hijacked) and deified him and created a complex theological matrix of dogmas and creeds around him, I am free to accept or reject ANY writings by men (the ONLY writings there are) that I deem appropriate and true for my spiritual mission here on planet earth. No individual or Christian church or dogma has the exclusive right to claim Jesus as their own. I also have the right to follow his teachings or not, and MOST IMPORTANTLY TO INTERPRET THEM AS I UNDERSTAND THEM. No one individual or group can claim any more Divine authority for their interpretation of truth or anything written in the Bible than another. I also have the right to deny that the Bible has any divine authority whatsoever, which I obviously do. God reveals Himself through each of us via our primary spiritual being, the soul we ARE. I find it to be a self-evident truth that whoever spoke to Moses was no God of mine.
Here are a few of my disclaimers:

1. I DO NOT ACCEPT the Bible as the word of God. In my understanding of our Creator, which is similar to Jesus� loving Father, there is no current nor has there ever been any visual or auditory contact. He (used here only as a linguistic nomenclature), therefore, has never dictated or inscribed any commandments, been heard in any burning bushes or "seen" on any mountain tops, directly smitten (smited?) any Canaanites or others (the some 3 million plus deaths in the OT [not counting the Flood] attributable to Him), did not assist Moses in parting the Red Sea and He and His Hosts never sat down to the sumptuous barbeques laid out for Him by Aaron and his priests that were prepared for Him daily. I believe this to be self-evident since He has not done any of these things anywhere else in the world (in the Chinese, Japanese, American civilizations for example) and since the Reformation and Enlightenment some 400 years ago in the areas He was so previously active. What changed? Man awakened from the authoritarian enslavement of Biblical �doctrine� promulgated by self-appointed religious rulers of a false �God� and rejected the OT as the true blasphemy of Man.
2. This �God� or �Lord� of the OT was NOT God!!!! I do NOT accept Him as being the One Unitary Consciousness or Creator of All That IS.
I could cite thousands of reasons for this understanding, all having to do with the simple fact that the actions and commandments ascribed to Him ARE ABSOLUTELY CONTRARY TO A LOVING CREATOR!!! (I have a book, which makes more sense to me as to who these Biblegods were in the OT which corroborates Sitchins findings, it is entitled �Is Jehovah an E.T.? Dorothy Leon makes a very convincing and compelling case for answering this in the affirmative).
3. The stories in Genesis of our creation are redacted Sumerian texts borrowed by the early Hebrews which were the creation stories of their ancestor�s �gods�, the Annunaki (�those who from heaven to earth came�). See the Seven Tablets of Creation/Chaldean Genesis/Epic of Creation or the Enuma Elish for the original, and the 9 volume work so far of Sitchin's interpretations of the Mesopotamian texts with thousands of references.
4. If there was ever a �being� called Satan he most certainly was the creator of the worst egregiously dangerous, ludicrous and enslaving doctrine ever fostered on mankind, �original sin�. Alas, since there is NO SUCH BEING, our sin or the existence of evil actions by men in this world is the result of our IGNORANCE of our true primary and eternal spiritual nature, which IS of the One Consciousness which is GOD.
I could continue but I think you get the point. I simply reject divine authority for all the writings upon which you base your beliefs. I therefore reject all the premises and presumptions inherent to any arguments and their resultant proclamations, ergo, your conclusions and condemnations regarding my interpretations that are BASED upon the Biblical self-declarative writings which has no extrabiblical confirmation or evidence.
The Bible is self-revelation, NOT TRUTH. You must find current EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE outside in the real world to substantiate your arguments. That is the fundamental difference between your understanding and mine. You can reject the new evidence but you must INVESTIGATE IT FIRST. Why?
I�ll leave you with a famous quote from Herbert Spencer who answers that question quite nicely: �There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance�that principle is contempt prior to investigation.� I have read and studied the Bible, that is WHY I reject it as the word of, or even inspired by the one true Creator (you must decide from the evidence what comprises the true nature nature and character of the Divine), with the exception of the spiritual truths ascribed to Jesus...and a few select others as well.

Well, you certainly have inspired a response from me. What say you all.

Your Loving Spiritual Brother,
Wayne

Wayne, I think your post above makes it abundantly clear that you really don't understand what the core Christian message of salvation in Christ is about, nor do you show any real evidence of understanding the basis of Christian faith. You don't know what we mean by Satan, sin, Original Sin, etc. Mostly, your objections are based on straw-man charicatures of almost everything Christians hold dear. There's just too much misinformation and fallacious reasoning in your post above to move me to engage your points. Besides, I really haven't gotten the impression that you've come here to dialogue so much as to proselytize.

Take a little more time to learn what Christians believe and why. Do a little more studying on what we mean by sin, God, Original Sin, salvation, etc. Learn what we mean by faith, and how it places one in relationship with God. Read some good Christian theologians -- Merton, Arraj, Rahner, C.S. Lewis, Lonergan, for example. Practice Lectio Divina or Centering Prayer for a few weeks to see what difference it makes in your life. I don't sense that you have much understanding or experience in any of these matters and so, as I say, it's difficult to take seriously your "critiques," though it seems you're most impressed with them.

Peace, Phil

Wayne:

I was telling Phil recently how I actually was visited by aliens. Twice. In the past 2+ years. Each time I was falling asleep, and all of sudden I could see them peering at me, as through a window in the space above my bed. They didn't scare me, didn't seem evil. They were merely curious, looked like popular caricatures, and were likely significantly advanced beings, at least intellectually. But they were clearly creatures. Not Divine. Not God. Not immortal. That much was clear. They were created just as you and I are. The reason I think I know this is because the experience left me with that clear impression, and that it was nothing at all like seeing angels, or being anointed with the Holy Spirit. The latter makes the alien visitations seem almost casual. Creature to creature, rather than creature before the uspeakable One. The aliens were intriguing, but not inspiring. No desire to run up on the roof and wait for the mother ship. And as I've said before, I've had several dreams and OBEs that suggest reincarnation to be a reality. But again, it isn't a big deal, one way or another, in light of having received Divine Grace, which really is something profoundly different than the powers of consciousness, kundalini. I've got kundalini coming out my ears most of the time, but it is most peaceful and integrated when the Holy Spirit is allowed to infuse my soul.

So why not give Christ a chance, instead of assuming the New Age redactions are the best representations of His Presence?

And if you are at all drawn to do the kind of reading Phil is suggesting, I'd add Professor John Meier to the list; he's probably the foremost New Testament scripture scholar on the planet, or among several. You won't find him pulling up short in criticism where the New Testament simply leaves us to the work of theology based upon mystical/contemplative experience and the church's traditions. He will differentiate these quite clearly.

Thank you,Phil, you have made it quite clear. You have put yourself inside the FAITH BOX. So, what does YOUR faith mean to you?
Here is one definition from a Christian website I picked at random: "Although the Christian faith is not based purely on evidence, it is definitely supported by evidence. Faith is not about turning off the brain and merely relying on the heart, or squashing reason in favor of emotion. No, Christian faith is about seeking and knowing Jesus with all facets of the human character. It's not a "blind faith" as I once thought... It's a "calculated faith" based on a preponderance of the evidence". Obviously, this is NOT your definition or is it...how does yours differ?
Here is Webster's extended definitions (partial list...it was too long for this post):
FAITH, n.

Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.

The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, on probable evidence of any kind.

In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers, is called historical or speculative faith; a faith little distinguished from the belief of the existence and achievements of Alexander or of Caesar.

Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith, is the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God's testimony, accompanied with a cordial assent of the will or approbation of the heart; an entire confidence or trust in God's character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation. In other words, that firm belief of God's testimony, and of the truth of the gospel, which influences the will, and leads to an entire reliance on Christ for salvation.

Being justified by faith. Romans 5.
Without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11.
For we walk by faith, and not by sight. 2 Cor. 5.
With the heart man believeth to righteousness. Romans 10.
The faith of the gospel is that emotion of the mind, which is called trust or confidence, exercised towards the moral character of God, and particularly of the Savior. Dwight
Faith is an affectionate practical confidence in the testimony of God. J. Hawes.
Faith is a firm, cordial belief in the veracity of God, in all the declarations, of his word; or a full and affectionate confidence in the certainty of those things which God has declared, and because he has declared them. L. Woods.

The object of belief; a doctrine or system of doctrines believed; a system of revealed truths received by christians.

So, which one or all applies to you, Phil? Please feel free to select one or create your own. If I am to discourse with you, and I truly do wish to, you have made it abundantly clear that I need to understand YOUR faith. I sincerely wish to understand yours. I will then be able to "reason" with you within the parameters of your FAITH BOX.

Your Brother in Spirit,
Wayne

P.S. I will respond to you, W.C., on a separate post. If you are honest about your experience, I would love to talk further. I have read virtually all the material written so far on abductions and am a member of MUFON.

Dear Heartprayer, Phil, W.C. etal

Just noticed a post I missed with a website devoted to discrediting Sitchin's work. I read as much of it as I could and took his "red pill" challenge. Although it appears he as some definite credentials to call into question Sitchin's linguistic scholarship and conclusions, his association and avowed "devotion" is not to historical or scientific truth but as an official of the ETS (interesting initials, huh)or the Evangelical Theological Society. Their mission statement includes this disqualifier for any serious unbiased scholarship: "The ETS is devoted to the inerrancy and inspiration of the Scriptures and the gospel of Jesus Christ." And, HE questions Sitchin's "scientific" qualifications and credentials...you'll have to do better than that. I am still open for serious evidence of disputation.

Your Spiritual Brother Always,
Wayne

Wayne,
If I understand you correctly, you�re saying we can ignore Michael Heiser�s questions (which is what Sitchin, too, has done), because of his association with ETS?

That doesn�t wash. A lot of experts on ancient languages have been inspired to study their chosen specialty because of their faith. However, their work must be judged on its own merits.

Heiser�s objections and pointed questions seem on-target, and unlike Sitchin he has credentials. Let�s hear a well-reasoned response, not an attack on Heiser�s associations!

Wayne, good to see you doing research to learn more about Christian faith! I think all those websites you quoted had some relevant things to say about it. For me it's primarily saying yes to an invitation to relationship with God extended in a unique way through the Jewish people and their Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. As such, faith is primarily an act of entrusting oneself to an-Other. There's nothing to prove or disprove; one entrusts or one doesn't; one has living faith or one doesn't (there are degrees, of course). Certain intellectual convictions can lead one to and support the relationship -- e.g., the Other actually exists, loves, cares, invites, accepts, forgives, empowers, etc. Also, there is an actual historical foundation to all of this in the history of the Jews, the life of Jesus, his resurrection, the experience of the Christian community, etc . But once these are proven true in the relationship, the basis for faith is no longer intellectual proofs of any kind, but the trustworthiness of the Other. If that all sounds like a BOX to you, then so be it.

- - -

But now, Wayne, what are you doing here -- really?

Dear Phil and Heartprayer,

Phil: The reason for faith given in the first internet definition under the word is,"religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny;..." Faith was therefore REQUIRED for our acknowledgement of a supernatural power i.e. God, when that belief had no real empirical proofs for our trust in that Power. So, we were told it was given to us by revelation (again, blind acceptance required here)of the "prophets" and Its "word" written down in infallible texts (again, blind acceptance required) conrolled our destiny...a destiny which was outlined for us in these "infallible" texts of the "word" of God, again taken on trust that it was correct although unprovable by our senses or any evidence exccept the assumed AUTHORITY we granted these givers of the law. We WERE TOLD to accept these revelations as the "gospel" truth (what else could we do for we were illiterate and uneducated and these were "wise" prophets...and, most importantly, we were told that IF WE DIDN'T HAVE FAITH terrible things would befall us!) So, we were told this Biblegod was in control, he loved and cared for us, and all we need do is OBEY His will for us and all would be well. We were his children and would let nothing bad happen to us. Then, we were given a laundry list of commandments and laws and restriction, lots of does and don't...and WE MUST TRUST IN THIS BIBLEGOD for he has only our interest and goodwill at heart. But, woe be to him/her that SHOULD QUESTION His authority and His will for us or DISOBEY his commandments and His laws, for surely if we did, the penalty would be everlasting pain and suffering in an underworld of hellfire and brimstone for ETERNITY!!! We were given stories of his great love and caring for us IF we obeyed His Will... and stories that sent shivers down our spine if we dare to stray from his WORD. Emmissaries of God were named, priests and their temples set up to be God"s intermediaries to insure God's Word was properly conveyed to us and that we conscientiously followed His laws and performed His rituals and ceremonies....ad infinitum. We were forbidden to READ what these prophets had said and what the good books stated exactly, under severe penalties if we did so. That was not a problem for a long time, for most of us were never taught how to read these texts nor could we understand them properly even if we could...etc...
So, FAITH was required in the ABSENCE of information, evidence or knowledge if we were to please God...and if we did not, the penalties were too horrendous to contemplate...so WE had faith that what we were told was the TRUTH.

Now, we have the information and evidence which gives us a new understanding of our relationship with the Divine and with our fellows...new evidence that we, ourselves, can seek and find the truth independently and that maybe, just maybe, the Biblegod and his laws are NOT our Creator and his TRUE WILL for us. We now have new evidence that "Personal enlightenment emanates from within each of us and endows humans with the capability to reach our own divine power without intermediaries." And, that what we were told in those texts just may NOT be true after all, for we now have new discarnate testimony never before available to us which tells us, "Earth is a place of great beauty and joy but also harbors ignorance, hate, and suffering that are man-made combined with natural planetary disasters over which we have little control. Coping with these positive and negative elements on Earth is by design. This planet is a testing ground for souls rather that being a place of evil, demonic influence from outside our world. Spiritual malevolence does not exist within the divine order of love and compassion that comprises our spiritual origins." So, our true Creator really does love us and has our best interest at heart but he doesn't send us demon and devil, we are not sent into everlasting fires of Hell...for none of this REALLY exists.

So, our FAITH is no longer required....WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN KNOWLEDGE of our Divine home and its purpose, we will be given more than one miserable opportunity to perfect the spiritual being we are. We are not born with "original sin" as the result of our ancestor believing a talking snake in our paradisial garden perpetuating INHERITED GUILT (no genetic evidence here that Adam's sin would be passed on to all succeeding generations without exception...boy, what a load of hooey they sold us on this one).

Let us go BEYOND faith to the greater empowerment of KNOWLEDGE. We are now being given the "evidence" which will allow us to cast off the need for faith as more TRUTH IS REVEALED TO US. To live in actual knowledge and an all embracing love of the One True Divine Consciousness which is God, and THEN, to truly love our neighbor, as ourself, for we WILL KNOW that he/her is truly our Brother/Sister in the spirit. These are the ONLY important commandments as our beloved Jesus told us. We then can live and progress in harmony for we all have a common divine purpose and mission to succeed together.

Your Spiritual Brother,

Wayne

Wayne:

You don't seem to understand what Phil is saying. Faith isn't a lack of knowledge, but is actually the form of knowing which a creature is given by the Uncreated in order to be known beyond our own faculties by Him. We cannot know God directly as He is in Himself, since our consciousness and His being are vitally different (not entirely separate). Consciousness can know Him indirectly, but it is an important distinction known not only to Christian mystics and contemplatives, but among the Sufis and Kabbalists as well. And so faith is a way of being known by Him as He is in Himself, rather than inflected through the filters of the human psyche. It isn't based upon consciousness or kundalini or anything derived from human powers/siddhis.

But I think talking to you, and you to us, is of no use. You came here to teach us poor Christians about our ignorance. You haven't shown any interest in our own pov, and quite frankly, most if not all of us find your concerns of relatively little importance when compared to Divine Grace. None of what you've shared is threatening to me. Spirituality holds no threats once you've been touched by Him, which is available to all; it can be sourced in Sufism, the 12 Steps, Kabbalism, Hinduism, and others. Once you know this love - like any real human love, really - there's no arguing over its validity, or really any desire to compare that unsurpassed love and peace to creaturely effects, except where it may help heal and mutually edify; hence my mild response to the aliens and the dreams where reincarnation was apparent. These phenomena may very well be true, and reflect our relatedness throughout the cosmos, but they aren't crucial to how I live my life. Intriguing, at times, yes. But hardly more than that. And this has nothing to do with belief, anymore than you would need a belief to prove to yourself you loved somebody. And so while you may know this love yourself, it isn't showing up strongly in our exchanges.

We can see clearly, at this point, our differences: God and consciousness. You've equated these throughout your posts, and none of us have this experience as far as I know. Many of us, including myself, once held your views equating the two. But with the advent of Divine Grace, consciousness is cleary known for its limitations. You don't have to agree to this, obviously, but the differences between us are so basic that we will only continue to talk around each other.

I see no more reason to continue on as you have. Not to be disrespectful to you, but there is no acknowledged common ground for continued exchanges. With that, I would ask you to move on to other pastures, since there is only continued misunderstanding and ad hominem for you to do here at Shalom Place. Phil may feel differently, but I for one don't see the value in continuing to talk down to, and around, each other, which is what this is degenerating into. If you decide to stay, I will no longer be interacting with you. I do wish you well in your journey.

That's all well-put, w.c.

Wayne, you wrote: So, FAITH was required in the ABSENCE of information, evidence or knowledge if we were to please God...and if we did not, the penalties were too horrendous to contemplate...so WE had faith that what we were told was the TRUTH.

w.c. and I have both replied to this above, but it does demonstrate how you don't understand/assimilate the responses given, and how you use silly straw-man caricatures and misrepresentations of Christian teaching to make your points.

Also, let's be clear that despite your admiration for Jesus and recognition of the importance of the two great commandments, you deny basic Christian tenets such as the divinity of Christ and the salvation brought through his death and resurrection -- both of which are essential Christian beliefs. Although you might be a very good person, and you might mean well in your efforts to share what you believe, here, what often comes across is a condescending disdain for core Christian beliefs and an arrogant assumption that hypnotized people have served up information which somehow casts doubt on what the entire Judeo-Christian and its Scriptures affirm. As you have no idea how the Judeo-Christian tradition and its scriptures came to be in the first place, and apparently little respect for the truths affirmed, it's understandable that you cannot appreciate how ridiculous we find your message to be! Alas, I'm sure what I've just written will just go to show how close-minded we are . . . so be it! My guess is that such was part of your agenda here, so you can be satisfied that we have come through, accordingly.

I'll pass on future dialogue with you as well, for the "spirit" of what you share is well-known to Christians. Arrogant, antagonistic, know-it-all detractors of the Faith have assailed us from the beginning. We know where they come from, whom they serve, and where they usually end up.

I feel the same way reading Wayne's blogs as I do when confronted by fundamentalists who do not believe I am a real Christian. It doesn't matter what I say, or do, unless core values (the Earth was created 4400 years ago) are shared, there is no dialogue. I am a liberal, and I see my values reflected again and again on this site. I am trying to live out the Spirit within me, not trying to be "right", learn the correct dogma (although the Christian dogma turned out to match my experience,but it has been in that progression), or to figure out how to belong to a group. I am more interested in how you pray, and the transformation of your life and loves, than in the proof or disproof of one thing or another. It doesn't matter to me if someone believes the Earth was created in 4400 B.C., if I can sense the Spirit of God in them, I will be softened, and my heart will want to learn from them, but I really don't want to talk about the creation of the world with them. I hope this year gives you what your heart most desires, I wish you well.
bdb

Dear Phil,

You have cut me to the chaste with "...what often comes across is a condescending disdain for core Christian beliefs and an arrogant assumption that hypnotized people have served up information which somehow casts doubt on what the entire Judeo-Christian and its Scriptures affirm. As you have no idea how the Judeo-Christian tradition and its scriptures came to be in the first place, and apparently little respect for the truths affirmed...I'll pass on future dialogue with you as well, for the "spirit" of what you share is well-known to Christians. Arrogant, antagonistic, know-it-all detractors of the Faith have assailed us from the beginning. We know where they come from, whom they serve, and where they usually end up."

I have made it very clear that what I have been attempting to report to you are NOT MY REVELATIONS although I have accepted them for their compelling and non-contradictory consistency. I am sorry that these mostly Christian experiencers of their discarnate memories have reported what you believe to be "a condescending disdain for core Christian beliefs" and that these "hypnotized people have served up information which somehow casts doubt on what the entire Judeo-Christian and its Scriptures affirm." Again, I AM NOT THE ONE WHO IS "SERVING" IT UP!!!! DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER! I have reported as faithfully as I can that what they have reported often contradicted their own conscious belief systems. Many, by the way, did not lose their Christian FAITH, but certainly some of their previous beliefs required modification or discarding. THEY were able to accept and adapt to these often worldview shattering revelations...but they were unable to deny the veracity of their experiences and knowledge of their true purpose and mission here. For most, it was a life changing experience which left them with a profound new understanding of who they were and their place in the Divine Plan for us all.

I have always believed that Jesus' true purpose and message for mankind was to show us how WE could make the divine nature granted us by our Creator (God) more manifest in this physical plane of existence. That He came to awaken the divinity (Holy Spirit or our "God like qualities") within us all (displacing the false ego personality of self{ish}interest) so that WE could bring more love, compassion, forgiveness and tolerance (our spiritual or divine qualities) into this world. Thereby, creating more abundant life (the joy of being). Is this not the intent and original sentiment of Christianity.

Unfortunately, some Christians have lost this understanding and replaced it with a "belief" requirement entailing a whole litany of prerequisite "mental concepts" or systems of belief (creeds, dogmas and complex theological constructs) which only serve to separate, polarize and most importantly exclude their spiritual brothers and sisters (all mankind) who fail to agree or pass their litmus test of what a Christian should be. Rather than building bridges of acceptance and love they build islands of limitation and exclusion. This is what the ego does in all it's affairs.

I contend that God (a word we use to point to the best our finite minds can comprehend of the infinite consciousness, existence and bliss -or the joy of being) is not a Christian...nor a Jew or Muslim. In fact, I contend that God is NOT religious nor does he demand that we be so! These are simply human concepts or constructs created by a surface mind-generated ego self which is unaware of it's divine nature and origin. I contend we are the witness or soul (spiritual being created by God) BEYOND mind. We are a temporary form of the formless consciousness made manifest in this world to bring the divine "qualities" He gave us into a material existence.

I realize the profound impact these new truths and revelations will have on organized religious belief, but also see that this new gospel will be the most liberating of all spiritual truths to our finally realizing our divine unity and connectedness with all that is; we are a transcendent and eternal manifestation of the divine Source in which Newton�s subjects tell us that �The ultimate goal of all souls appears to be the desire to seek and find perfection, and finally conjoin with the Source who created them.�

So, your personal attack upon me as an "(a)rrogant, antagonistic, know-it-all detractor(s_ of the Faith (who) have assailed us from the beginning. We know where they come from, whom they serve, and where they usually end up..." should not be aimed at me for IT IS THE EVIDENCE that everyday Christians and followers of Jesus' teachings like you and me who ARE REVEALING this new information to us. THEY are the ones who would take exception to your characterizations, for I am only making THEIR new truths available to you for your consideration. I am but a humble messenger of the new gospel.

Remember, as Ralph Waldo Emerson told us over a 120 years ago: �There is no truth so sublime as it may become trivial in the light of new thought (knowledge)�

May you all realize your own enlightenment right here and NOW for you have been given that power by your Creator and He expects you to us it,

Wayne R. Wohler

Gramps, I know I said I was done, but since you asked:

quote:

I have always believed that Jesus' true purpose and message for mankind was to show us how WE could make the divine nature granted us by our Creator (God) more manifest in this physical plane of existence. That He came to awaken the divinity (Holy Spirit or our "God like qualities") within us all (displacing the false ego personality of self{ish}interest) so that WE could bring more love, compassion, forgiveness and tolerance (our spiritual or divine qualities) into this world. Thereby, creating more abundant life (the joy of being). Is this not the intent and original sentiment of Christianity.

Yes and no. Yes that these values are emphasized, for sure. No to the way you talk about awakening the divinity within. Our access to divinity comes through Christ, who shares His Spirit with us, not through any kind of innate divinity that WE awaken through our own practice. That's a gnostic notion rejected by apostolic Christianity in the 2nd C. but still promoted in this day and age in the New Age. As has been pointed out many times on this thread, you're conflating the divine and human spirits, which is also a common New Age error.

What do you think survives after death? Who is the witness to your self-talking ego mind, the one which is aware of the movement of your mind...that which is awakened in the present when the surface ego self is silent? What within you is watching the thinker you believe you are? Who within experiences the unconditional love of the divine in meditation and contemplation? What is the source of your feelings of unconditional love for Christ and the rare altruistic notions of divine love and forgiveness? Where does you conscience and compassion for others reside? When your mind is silent who speaks to you in your inner voice and connects with your beingness and all of creation? Who experiences the occasional epiphany when you see yourself part of creation itself and that you are one with it?
"Identification with your mind creates an opaque screen of concepts, labels, images, words, judgments and definitions that blocks all true relationship. It comes between you and yourself, between you and your fellow man and woman, between your and nature, between you and God"(Eckhart Tolle, from the "Power of Now").

So, when we observe or witness, from the vantage point of our True Self beyond mind, the insidious nature of our false mind ego-self, the pretender to our identity, we can begin the process of re-identification with that which we are. As Dr. Newton's subjects report in the "Way of Souls": "Each soul has a unique immortal character. When conjoined with a human brain, this ego character is melded with the emotional temperament, or human ego, of that body to produce a single but temporary personality for one lifetime. This is what is meant by the duality of our mind (so here on Earth the True Self/Soul is the witness and real identity beyond the temporary ego mind of the body)."
And,
"while soul memory may be hidden from the level of conscious awareness through amnesia, thought patterns of the soul influence the human brain to induce motivations for certain actions.

Finally, we have been operating from, been identified with, given our allegiance to, a false and separate ego-self, a creation of mind �thinking� it is separate from all other minds. It, therefore, in ignorance (deliberately imposed amnesia) of its divine connection to all other like minds and the One Mind, believes itself to be in opposition to or in competition with all others. It then creates its own separate and independent reality and agenda, the host then unconsciously identifies with it as who it is and then begins to fear for its very fragile existence. The divinely created true Self or Soul that we are never fears for its existence, for it is immortal and eternal. The DELUSION then that we are the false ego self creation of mind is the source of all humankind�s misery and suffering. Thus, when we awaken to this realization we can begin to be the authentic spiritual beings we are.

May you awaken to you the divinity within,

Wayne

Phil,

Just a word about Gnosticism:
The Gnostic religious traditions only recently revived due to the discoveries of the early Christian communities of the Essenes at Qumran and others, now revealed to us through their writings among the documents of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi codexes, held that man was truly a spark of the divine. They believed they held the true and secret �knowledge� or gnosis of who we really are as divine beings trapped in a corrupt and evil physical body. That, in fact, we are truly alien to this planet, which was not created by the one true God but by an evil deity, and that through communications with and aid from spiritual entities called Eons we could learn how to escape this physical realm after death. Most importantly, only by virtue of these revelations of our divinity could salvation be realized, and only those initiated into their Gnostic society and fully vetted were allowed to receive these revelations of our true divine nature. They also believed that not all men were divine but that there were three very distinct human types: Men that were essentially animals with no divine spark, those who if given this secret knowledge and by their actions and virtues learn the paths necessary to escape, and finally there were those who already possessed this divine knowledge and were thus able to impart it to others who wished salvation.
Well, they had the divine part right but made it an exclusive club rather than an all inclusive understanding of mankind�s connectedness to our Creator as part of and intrinsic to the entirety of creation. They were simply unable to see that this world of woe and evil is primarily a result of our not being aware of our divine nature and connection and thus our ignorant identification with the disconnected ego-self is the reason the world is the way it is. It was not created this way, it has become this way by virtue of our own ignorance, but that is why we are here and have free will to learn the importance of following our own internal divine guidance and to make it manifest in the world. The world itself or physical life is neither intrinsically good nor evil . What we would call positive or life affirming action towards each other, society and the planet itself is a result of our paying attention to the inner voice of our soul and may or may not necessarily contradict our instinctual nature as physical beings i.e. �being human�. But, only an individual who follows the dictates of his soul, however, can mitigate an instinctually human negative or harmful inclination or reaction to the harshness of life. Remember we are hybrid beings and it is only the animal nature of man which leads him to justify unfriendly or should we say non-life affirming actions aimed at �others�. The disconnected ego mind operating in this reality, without denying or ignoring the often harsh �survival� activities required to prevail, is the primary culprit in man�s inability to fully implement his higher functioning and often altruistic impulses toward harmony and peace. Or, in other words, evolve towards consciously higher states of being in the world.

-The Gospel of Truth (from Gnostic doctrine written by Ptolemy)- Jesus came to give us the truth that would free our soul from its prison in the body, not to die and be resurrected for our sins. So it is not our faith in the death and resurrection of Christ which will bring us salvation but by �receiving the knowledge and truth of who we really are� which they liken to �a drunk person who becomes sober again� or a person who has been asleep and is awakened. Only this knowledge then will save us from the fate of error or falsehood. Salvation comes therefore from having knowledge of ourselves as sparks of the divine, not in having faith in Jesus� death and resurrection, and it is this knowledge that Jesus provides us through his ministry and teachings.

So, they were correct about many aspects of our spiritual journey but certainly not all.

Your Brother in Spirit,
Wayne

Hi Wayne, I'm quite used to talking to people who disagree with me and don't mind holding a different worldview to others (regardless of who thinks they are correct). I was not trying to write off what you have stated, simply giving my own experience based insight into the discussion.

I would really like to know how you relate to God and the information you have collected - not what truth you believe, but how you experience God in conjuction with the truth you hold to and how that experience shapes your life and growth as a human being.

Another thing I would like to know is what your parralel truth is related to the doctrine of original sin/fall of mankind. If we are all so much more divine than we think we are, then why all the confusion, illusion and evil. Why did God not simply create us perfect (which is the case in the Christian story by the way - until we chose to discover good and evil on our own).
What caused us to loose sight of our true identity - Surely something went wrong with the plan/design, surely an All LOVING GOD would not design life in such a way that it created all the heartache and bloodshed brought about through our delusion.

Since something went wrong, what has God done to fix the problem, has he waited hundreds of thousands of years for people to start hypnotizing each other in order to rectify the problem? Is simply knowing our true nature going to stop people killing each other and stealing and raping and abusing?

Also, are we the only spirit beings in the universe, and if we are able to fall into delusionsal states of existence, what keeps other spirit beings from falling into the same states?

If Jesus understood as much of the reality as you seem to believe (and the Buddha), why didn't they speak more directly to the problem as you do. Why did they continue along their own traditions and extend the teachings of established religions (Judaism->Christianity; Hinduism->Buddhism), and in the case of the Buddha reject all concepts of God. Who else does Newton hold up as an example of someone who God sent to fix the problem, Muhammad? Paul? Nostradamus? Why don't these people direct us to jump ship and follow a radically different approach?

Something else I would like to know is how the new truth that you believe has helped you in the darker areas of your own humanity. Do you ever do/think/say things that you wish you didn't, do you struggle to be the good person that I'm sure you try to be. How does your truth and it's application in your life assist you with your development? Are you overcoming sin (the Christian term i know) or evil in your life? Has your new truth helped in your relationships with other human beings and with your Creator God, whomever you believe "Him" to be?