"By faith Abel..." - Heb. 11:4

"By faith Enoch..." - Heb. 11:5

"By faith Noah..." - Heb. 11:7

"By faith Abraham..." - Heb. 11:8

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises...." - Heb. 11:13, kjv.

Well, this topic is right up my alley. Enoch, and Moses, according to the Bible did not die. In my opinion they got "raptured". They obtained thier immortal bodies, and escaped death.

Katy

Hello, Katy --

But what about Jesus saying, "no man has ascended up to heaven" --

John 3: 10-13
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
KJV

Also Heb. 9: 27, It is appointed that we all die once and then be judged by God.

---

And yet Katy is right in pointing out that Moses and Enoch (and Elijah) are reported to have been taken up to heaven. Catholics also believe the same about Jesus' mother. In the latter case, it is maintained that she passed briefly through death (Mary's dormition, it is called) and then received the same kind of resurrected body that Jesus possesses.

Dt. 34: 7 states that Moses died. I don't think Scripture says anything about him being assumed or raptured; that seems to have been an oral tradition.

The Book of Enoch is not in the Jewish or Christian canon of Scripture. Enoch's being "taken up without dying" is mentioned in Heb. 11: 5, as wopik noted. Although the author attributes this to his faith, there is the reference to him not dying.

Scripture does mention Elijah going up to heaven in a fiery chariot. Jewish tradition held that he would return to usher in the age of the Messiah -- an expectation Jesus had to deal with in conversations with his disciples.

If one takes literally the teachings and traditions about Elijah, Enoch and Moses being taken up, it doesn't follow that they didn't briefly pass through some kind of death/translation experience, such as Catholics believe of Mary. As wopik point out in his opening post, any merit of theirs comes from their faith, and any extraordinary reward would be in the order of God's plan for the universe. We see, for example, Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus during his lifetime on Mt. Tabor -- a clear indication that Jesus was in line with the traditions of law and prophecy held dear by the Jews.

Hello, Phil

quote:

And yet Katy is right in pointing out that Moses and Enoch (and Elijah) are reported to have been taken up to heaven.

ENOCH was "translated." Where did he go? Was he immediately taken to heaven? NO! Because Jesus Himself said:

"No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man"(John 3:13). Here are Jesus' own words that no man, except Himself, had ascended into heaven!

Moses didn't write that Enoch did not die. Rather Moses wrote that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he "was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).


Thus the Scripture records that Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him. THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THAT ENOCH WENT TO HEAVEN when he was translated. Instead it says he was not found.

1) This Greek word for "translate" is the same Greek word rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16: Jacob died and his body was "carried over" -- transported, translated -- to Sychem where he was buried.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ -- type in "translated", then "carried over" -- in: NT -- the same Greek word is used.


2) Jesus says no man is in Heaven (Jn 3:13).

Either we have it wrong, or Jesus has it wrong.

This could be explained by references to Paradise and Abraham's Bosom which are likely to be different from Heaven. It's evident that the thief on the cross went to paradise with Christ after death and that Lazarus(in the story of the rich man and Lazarus) went to Abraham's bosom, so that these two, paradise and Abraham's bosom, are probably the same place. The Bible seems to suggest that paradise is under the earth and linked by a vast gulf to sheol, so that when Christ descended, He went to paradise to preach to the souls of the dead, aswell as entering into the experience of hell for us.

Paradise would be a place of rest for the dead in Christ, who only ascend to heaven at the resurrection.

The translation of Enoch and Elijah could have been into some heavenly realm, not the third heaven where Christ is now as the only man. Or, if paradise is under the earth only in a metaphorical sense, then perhaps they were translated to paradise. A lot of conjecture in this, I know, but scripture does seem to bear some of it out.

Stephen, the distinction between paradise and heaven is one I hadn't thought about in this context. I think you're on to something.

quote:

Abraham's Bosom

There is no doubt as to how the Bible uses the word "bosom".

In Isaiah 40:11, we find God will care for His people as a shepherd does his sheep, carrying them "in His bosom".

Jesus was "in the bosom" of the Father (Jn. 1:18), enjoying the Father's blessings and close relationship.

Moses carried the children of Israel in his bosom (Num. 11:12). To be in one's bosom is to have that one's love and protection, and share his blessings and inheritance.

Lazarus being carried away by the angels (Matt. 25:31) into Abraham's bosom, means he was carried - not up to Heaven - but into the status of a son and heir of Abraham (Gal. 3:29).

Yes, certainly, the word does imply sonship and inheritance, but the Lazarus story clearly describes a place, distinct from heaven and having the qualities of inherited property.

To read it solely as spiritual metaphor, one would have to do the same for sheol. Perhaps in the spirit realm place and condition have similar characteristics.

Hi Guys ;-)

I will be thinking about all your replies, and then some, since it IS one of my favorite topics. Going to print this page and take it with me to HAWAII, next week. :-) It's going to be a long plane ride, so I will have plenty of time to read, study, and ponder.

:-)
Katy

Bon Voyage, Katy !

Hebrews 11 :5: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found,
because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."



This verse plainly mentions two translations.

Examining this verse fact by fact, we notice that Enoch had faith and was translated. This translation - removal, transference - was on condition of FAITH. NOW what translation mentioned in the Bible is on condition of faith? Why, the one we read about in Colossians 1:13. The Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son."

This is a FIGURATIVE translation - a FIGURATIVE removal or transference from the spiritual darkness of this world to the light of the family or kingdom of God and Christ. In verse 10 Paul shows that to abide in this kingdom we must "walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing." This is exactly what Enoch did. He walked with God, and pleased God.



Then Enoch, the same as Christians, was delivered from the power of sin and darkness in which he had been living for sixty-five years. He was removed (translated) from the ways of the world and lived three hundred years according to

God's ways so that he might inherit eternal life at Christ's return, and should not suffer the second death.


By faith Enoch was separated - removed or translated - from the world, the same as Christians who are not to be a part of the world, although living in the world.



Not only was Enoch FIGURATIVELY taken from the society of his day, but he was also LITERALLY

removed - translated - so that he was not found.



God took him physically away from the people, just as He later took Moses. And God buried each so well that neither has ever been found since! Enoch had completed this present normal life. "All his days were three hundred sixty-five

years. This was the second translation - a literal removal at death.



God gave Enoch this sign of physical removal as a type for all those who should later follow Enoch's example of faith. He was taken physically from the people just as Christians are to be spiritually removed from the ways of the world.


The physical translation or carrying away of Enoch was also a sign to him from God that his faith had been accepted --- God often gives signs (Isaiah 38:7).

wopic,

Does this have anything to do with the two witnesses mentioned in The Apocalypse, chapter 11?

mm <*))))><

quote:

Does this have anything to do with the two witnesses mentioned in The Apocalypse, chapter 11?

Not to my knowledge. I believe the two witnesses will be two contemporary people who God will choose.

*********************************************
(this is from a dialog a friend and I were having)

I do not believe that Enoch ascended into heaven, I believe that he was translated which is not the same thing.

quote:

Philip was also translated from one place to another, when he appeared in the place where the Eunuch was, and later when he had finished dealing with the Eunuch!

good point !

"....[u]the Spirit of the Lord[/u] caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more" (was not found) --- Acts 8: 39.


"But Philip WAS FOUND at Azotus:...." -- Acts 8: 30.

Sound familiar? "not found" ----- "taken away" (caught away) ----- "God took him"

I've heard a lot about the two witnesses being Moses and Elijah. This also relates to their discussion with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. I think a lot of Christians I know, and whom I trust, go with this, although obviously I myself can't be certain.

yea, but Moses and Elijah are dead.

I think the end-time two witnesses will come in the "spirit of Elijah" ----- just like Elisha did.

Elisha wanted a DOUBLE PORTION of Elijah's SPIRIT - 2 Kings 2: 9.


1) Elijah brought down fire from Heaven -- like the two witnesses will (Rev 11).

2) It did not rain during the time of Elijah's word -- same will happen when the two witnesses do their work.

Well, Elijah's not dead. He was translated. And Moses was buried secretly by God so that no man could find his body, indicative perhaps of his further service as a resurrected being. Then ofcourse we have Michael and Satan fighting over the body of Moses. The fact that Moses has already been resurrected is proven by the fact that he talked with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus would not have talked to Moses and Elijah if they had been dead because it is unlawful to talk to the dead and Jesus would never have broken the Law.

Looking at Exodus 34:10, Moses claims that he will do amazing works of power, but if we look at his history after that there is nothing compatible with those claims, evidence perhaps of his return to do these works of power at a later date. Indeed, one of the works of the two witneses is to smite the land with plague, and this of course, was what God did through Moses in Egypt.

Then we have Jesus saying of John the Baptist: "This is Elijah, who IS to come", indicating the return of Elijah to the earth.Just some thoughts.

Some people say that the two witneses are Enoch and Elijah. There are even some who say Antichrist will be a re-incarnated or resurrected figure from history. Again just a thought. Nothing to say that God can't bring the dead back to life for His own purposes. Still, who knows?

quote:

Originally posted by wopik:
[qb] Bon Voyage, Katy ! [/qb]

Thank you, Wopik!

Going to copy this page now. Look forward to reading it all.

:-)
Katy

Stephen

quote:

Well, Elijah's not dead.

2Kings 2:11

quote:

"And Elijah WENT UP by a whirlwind to HEAVEN".

This can easily be misunderstood, as I can myself attest to.

How far UP does the wind go? Certainly we have all seen the great lifting power of a whirlwind or tornado.

Elijah never left the Earth's atmosphere.

The sons of the prophets who knew that their master was to be removed (2 Kings 2:3,5) also knew Elijah was not to die then or leave the Earth. That is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have allowed him to drop "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (2Kg. 2:16).

The Earth's atmosphere is also called heaven: "....and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven - Gen 1:20.

Stephen

quote:

Then we have Jesus saying of John the Baptist: "This is Elijah, who IS to come", indicating the return of Elijah to the earth.

When John was asked by the delegation from Jerusalem whether he was Elijah, he replied, "I am not" (John 1:21). Though he was Elijah in spirit and power, he was not the literal Elijah they were expecting.


"In the spirit and power of Elijah" indicates John resembled Elijah in doing a similar work of revealing the true God through a ministry devoted to preaching repentance and the certainty of things contained in the Scriptures regarding Christ.

Perhaps it also includes working with a similar zeal, though he accomplished his function without miracles (John 10:41). Obviously, God does not measure a man's greatness by the miracles he does.

Wopik,

I agree with you about John the Baptist coming in the spirit and power of Elijah.

What of the literal Elijah's translation and his appearance at Christ's transfiguration? It raises interesting questions about the transformation of his body (from material to spiritual without death or resurrection), and his place in the heavens, possibly the second heaven (the heavenly realms), between the Earth's atmosphere (or space) and the third heaven where God's throne is; a middle place occupied by angels.

Also interesting to note Christ's physical change. I suppose it's possible to conjecture that the Mount of transfiguration intersected the earth and this heavenly realm, a place not of the dead, but of translated, resurrected beings in communion with God and angels.

Stephen

quote:

What of the literal Elijah's translation and his appearance at Christ's transfiguration?

It was merely a vision, said Jesus - Matt 17:9

"Tell the vision to no man..."

A vision can be more real than anything in the material world. I think you downplay it somewhat. I mean, are you saying it didn't happen, that Christ wasn't transfigured? Was He talking to a figment of the apostles imagination? I don't think so. Reading the scene again, the voice of God from heaven, Peter's suggestion of building tabernacles to the three figures, it's clearly more than just a vision and, in fact, shows more of the reality of afterlife and glory than almost anything else in the Bible. You stress a relatively unimportant word that isn't mentioned in the other gospels where Christ tells them not to mention "the things they had seen" , a word whose meaning can be read in different ways.

"Tell the vision to no man..." - Jesus, Matt 17:9

Peter also had a vision - Acts 10

perhaps we might call these Holograms, today, in the technologie era -- producing three-dimentional images in space, in thin air.