Hello....before I return to my solitude would someone tell the difference between divine election and predestination? Or are they the same?

thanks

the following is what brought about the question regarding divine election and predestination. this is disjointed but I think it will be enough ....I will check back in a few days to see if anyone has responded.

have been reading now and then in a classic called: THE HERMITAGE WITHIN....written by "A Monk".

decided it would now be best to begin at the beginning of the bookinstead of looking here and there......

In the first section entitled The Desert, there is ch. 4 called Mary Magdalen's Wilderness and it is so
beautiful.....but some questions or wonderings came to mind.

on p. 30 the author wrote:

"Even in justice, God is still a Father. Even when you were hardly concerned about him at all and
were drinking sin like water, he was lowering his merciful gaze on you; his gaze was penetrating you
to lead you to repentance. He lets others die in their sin. Why this preference for you? 'I have loved Jacob,
I have hated Esau.' Why? St. Paul replied: "He has mercy on whom he pleases and he hardens
whom he pleases' He is not accountable to us. ' O man, who are you to argue with God.' [7]

-------------------------

the reference [7] takes one to Romans 9:14-24, but the whole chapter is worth the read. Now we
know Romans is NOT the easiest book to understand....tis, IMVHO, very deep theology.
to be fair here is the whole chapter.......it isn't all that long! but it is necessary to help you
clarify some things for me, if any of you are willing! and I have added a few comments in surrounded by [ ]

The Revised Standard Version
Romans 9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit,
9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.
9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
9:5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.
9:6 But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named."
9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants.
9:9 For this is what the promise said, "About this time I will return and Sarah shall have a son."
9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call,

[this is so powerful! because of 'HIS call']

9:12 she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."
9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
9:16 So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

[there it is again....not man's works or whatever but totally God's mercy........]

9:17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."
9:18 So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

[can't take things out of context and relationship to Israel & to the believing Gentiles in this chapter, but wow~]

9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
9:20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"
9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

[again, 'us whom He CALLED!']

9:25 As indeed he says in Hose'a, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'my beloved.'"
9:26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved;
9:28 for the Lord will execute his sentence upon the earth with rigor and dispatch."
9:29 And as Isaiah predicted, "If the Lord of hosts had not left us children, we would have fared like Sodom and been made like Gomor'rah."
9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith;
9:31 but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law.
9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
9:33 as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall; and he who believes in him will not be put to shame." The Revised Standard Versi
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also let me add an important verse: John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

there are other verses that tell us that God makes the first step.....He call us. and without that kind of Grace, we could never come to Him.

In my NAS study bible here is footnote for Rom 9: 14-18 "The principle of divine election does not invite Christians to theoretical inquiry concerning the nonelected, nor does this principle mean that God is unfair in His dealings with humanity. The instruction concerning divine election is a part of the gospel and reveals that the gift of faith is the enactment of God's mercy (vs. 16) God raised up Moses to display that mercy, and Pharaoh to display divine severity in punishing those who obstinately oppose their creator."

Also, Haydocks Bible has the following commentary on vs 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 9:16 So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
Commentary says: �By these words he again teaches that God�s call and predestination of those whom he has decreed to save, is not upon account of any works or merits in men, but only to be attributed to the mercy and goodness of God.�
If that is true, then we should all be on our faces before Him in the Blessed Sacrament. How humbling���.

Then in vs 18 Haydocks says this re: hardening whom He wills: �St,. Augustine says God is said to harden men;s heart, not by causing their malice, but by not giving them the free gift of His grace, by which they become hardened by their own perverse will.�

all of that brings the following questions to my mind:

1. define divine election. is it any different than predestination? many of the verses in Rom 9 would seem to say they are the same; at one time or another I was told that the Catholic doctrine of predestination is not the same as the protestant one.

2. and the gift of faith is God's mercy given to us....and without it, we would have no faith, right?

3. so God gives to whom He pleases, which we know.......but again, rom. 9 and the part from THE HERMITAGE seem to indicate that some are chosen to be His children and others are not..

I realize that we are not to question what He
does .....but since Paul wrote about it......well

------I am a 4 year old convert and sometimes I think it would be best not to TRY to understand alot of the scriptures but this chapter in Romans is so fascinating. am hoping someone will share their views
OR
would it just be better if I just do lectio.......
OR
Can someone share a website that addresses predestination according to the Church?
Tis an ole dilemma, isn�t it?
Peace���..

The Catholic teaching on this matter is that God calls all to relationship and salvation. This doesn't mean that God doesn't have a different relationship with different people; we surely see evidence of that with Jesus. But it is to say that, for Catholics, the issue might be more properly stated as foreknowledge rather than predestination. God already knows who will and will not respond to the offer of grace, but this knowledge does not determine the person's response.

I'll stop there and see if this is helpful. Perhaps others would like to chime in.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb]The Catholic teaching on this matter is that God calls all to relationship and salvation. This doesn't mean that God doesn't have a different relationship with different people; we surely see evidence of that with Jesus. But it is to say that, for Catholics, the issue might be more properly stated as foreknowledge rather than predestination. God already knows who will and will not respond to the offer of grace, but this knowledge does not determine the person's response.

I'll stop there and see if this is helpful. Perhaps others would like to chime in.[/qb]

thanks, Phil.....I am not about the foreknowledge idea but it does let predestination off the hook, but it seems the muddy things up for 'divine election'.

I was going to ask if 'divine election' = foreknowledge, but decided against it......shall just leave it all up to HIm.

and evidently no one else wanted to chime in
but that's okay.............it is a difficult concept.

take care......

This is not really an issue for Catholics, mary teresa, so maybe that's the problem. You won't even find it listed in the Catholic Encyclopedia. The reason is that we do not believe God creates anyone and then purposefully excludes them from the reign of God through non-election. Nor do we believe that God creates a soul in such a manner that it is destined for salvation or damnation because of its manner of creation. Such a notion to us would be incongruent with a good and loving God whose offer of salvation is open to all.

God did, of course, choose the Jewish people to be the race through which the Messiah was to be born, so there is a special relationship between God and the Jews. This does not present issues of predestination or divine election, however, not in the way I'm hearing you state them.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, here. Maybe some of our Protestant readers can share how they view this. Perhaps I've misunderstood the issues.

After 20 years of protestant brainwashing and
only four years of Catholic mystical teaching, I am a bit confused on the issue myself. Father Thomas Keating said that perhaps the idea of hell is a cosmic 2x4 to whack people upside the head with because they are so "dense" For those yet imperfect in love, there is a fearful looking toward
judgement. There is a scripture with words to that effect.Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Faith remains unread atop my bookshelf, and I have not yet taken RCIA classes, so I remain woefully unqualified
to answer the question. Unlike many mystics I know, I still place my trust in Jesus and feel that I belong to him in a mysterious and personal way, although my Christology will change as I get to know him better. Good luck on the Quest for the
Holy Grail
michael <*))))><