This tread is for those who would like to discuss Christian topics and views which may not be widely accepted by mainstream Protestant or Catholic Christians.

This thread has the blessing of the owner, Phil.

Hi Wopik
I think this thread is a good idea, and I hope you get the dialogue you are looking for. My brother-in-law is a Seventh Day Adventist, which I presume you are, and he has taught me a lot about Sabbath-keeping in particular...he keeps it in a much more wholistic way than many of the go-to-worship-and-run Christians I know, self included.
My question for you is, why is some of this stuff so important to you? The day of Sabbath, for instance. Or dietary stuff. Or the Christian calendar? I agree with John Wesley who said, "So long as it does not strike at the heart of Christianity, think and let think." Truly, much of what you have posted about on other threads doesn't seem to be "the heart of Christianity" ...why does it matter so much to you?
Wondering,
Revkah

Hi revkah,

I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist. I used to hear the old Worldwide Church of God on the radio decades ago, and that got me interested in looking at "doctrines", Christmas, Easter, Sunday, etc.

Perhaps some of thoes WWCG preachers had their roots in SDA, I have no way of verifying that.

quote:

why does it matter so much to you?

Because I like "staying on track". If the Apostles practiced it, I feel that is the way to go, and stay.


If the Apostles didn't practice it or observe it, I don't want to either. They were closest to the Source; they got information first hand.

I don't see these jewish Christians keeping Sunday or an annual resurrection ceremony.

O God, do not keep silent;
be not quiet, O God, be not still.

See how Your enemies are astir,
how Your foes rear their heads.

With cunning they conspire against Your people;
they plot against those You cherish.

"Come," they say, "let us destroy them as a nation, that the name of Israel be remembered no more."

With one mind they plot together; they form an alliance against You--

Psalms 83: 1-5


It is a prayer we might well make on behalf of the United States as well as Israel.

But God offers his promises of prosperity and protection to those who keep His laws, observe His Sabbaths and holy days and put their trust in Him.

Isn�t it interesting that Israel is the only nation on earth that pays national respect to the Sabbath as a day of rest and worship?

Could it be that the phenomenal prosperity of the United States might be linked to our alliance with the only nation on earth that keeps God�s Sabbath and holy days?

A relative handful in this nation pay any mind to God�s laws.

Our religious leaders are foremost in demanding that His laws are not binding.


Where will we turn when the first Islamic detonation hits our soil? To Kofi Annon?


http://garnertedarmstrong.ws/M...oms/manews0063.shtml

wopik, I do recall you mentioning sometime back that you were a member of the Seventh Day Adventist church. Seems most of the beliefs and concerns you want to discuss here are pretty much identical with the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Whatever the case . . . glad you took me up on starting your own thread..

Wopik,

I was blessed to meet a Carmelite sister. I spoke to her through a grill, and was impressed by her devotion to Theresa of Avila. and her prayers for my conversion and the Theresa of Lisieux medalion which she gave to me, and the Baltimore Catechism that I still have. She used to be a Seventh Day Adventist, and I wonder if she still washes the feet of the faithful.

I enjoyed a brief sojourn in a Seventh Day fellowship. God bless you!

quote:

Originally posted by wopik:
[qb] Perhaps some of thoes WWCG preachers had their roots in SDA, I have no way of verifying that. [/qb]

On the roots, here is a detailed article:

"The Worldwide Church of God was founded in 1933 by Herbert W. Armstrong as the Radio Church of God. Armstrong was a minister in the General Conference of the Church of God (Seventh-Day), and his church (at the time, actually a small church congregation of adherents with a radio ministry) was initially not a separate entity..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Church_Of_God

"Oh, how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day.

You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies; For they are ever with me.

I have more understanding than all my teachers, For Your testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, Because I keep Your precepts. I have restrained my feet from every evil way, That I may keep Your word.

I have not departed from Your judgments, For You Yourself have taught me. How sweet are Your words to my taste, Sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way" (Psalms 119: 97-104).

------------------

The psalmist loves the law because it gives him an edge in life. What is it worth to be wiser than your enemies, to have more understanding than your teachers, to know things even the gray heads don�t know?

Why would I not love something like this, and why would I not hate anything that threatened to take it away?


http://www.rondart.com/Book%20...gsaw%20principle.htm

Hi all,

Wopik, I think at heart I share some of your concerns. I have often worried that we are supposed to be keeping the law and that tradition stopped us from doing it and God actually intended for us to continue keeping the law. We would then be living contrary to the will of God. Perhaps God will continue to lead and guide me on this issue, but all I do know is that I am tired of being so confused all the time. God is not the author of confusion, so somewhere I must be getting it wrong. (alas, but where, my journey and confusion continue )

Jacques,

Here are two interesting links you may find some useful information in ---


http://intercontinentalcog.org...C/Lesson_Seven.shtml


http://www.intercontinentalcog...GCC/Lesson_Ten.shtml

Jacques

quote:

I have often worried that we are supposed to be keeping the law.....

don't worry, just ponder.

-


Heb.
1:1
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,


1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;


Heb.
1:8
But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.


1:9
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."


God loves RIGHTEOUSNESS. "all your commandments are RIGHTEOUSNESS" - Psalms 119:172.


God hates LAWLESSNESS (INIQUITY). "depart from Me, you that work INIQUITY."


We all sin every day. Perhaps God is looking for those who are trying to overcome --

Rev. 2:7
Rev. 2:11
Rev. 2:17
Rev. 2:26

REV
2:17

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.


--


John
16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.

Hi Jacques,

You wrote,

quote:

Perhaps God will continue to lead and guide me on this issue, but all I do know is that I am tired of being so confused all the time. God is not the author of confusion, so somewhere I must be getting it wrong. (alas, but where, my journey and confusion continue [Frown] )

I wonder if there is any one of us who has not felt the kind of confusion you have expressed here. I know that I certainly have. And I think that Wopik's quote from the book of Revelation is just what the doctor ordered. There are so many churches with so many voices and so many books on the bookshelf that confusion may even be more likely than not. However, the more we nurture and develop the ear that hears the still small voice that comes from within (a hearing which is a faculty of the soul, not the body) the more readily we move out of the confusion and into clarity.

I am sure that this is probably already a part of your spiritual life. But I can tell you from experience that the more you transcend the ear of the senses and nurture, instead, the ear of the heart, the more attuned you will become to the Spirit who would lead and guide you into the way of all truth.

God bless.

Hi Wopik, Roger,

Thanks for the replies.

Wopik, I thought you might enjoy a look at these guys...they seem to take what you are saying to it's logical conclusion. Tell me what you think!
NCCG

Roger, I am trying to grow in heart listening...I hope the future proves that I have been opening my spiritual ears

NO VICTORY, NO PEACE


http://garnertedarmstrong.ws/M...oms/manews0070.shtml

I don�t believe Christians know what they have, or they would be moving heaven and earth with it.

Luke tells us what happened to the disciples in Thessalonica while Paul was still there. Some of the Jews in the city incited a mob and set the whole city in an uproar. They wanted Paul, but only found Jason. Him they dragged to the local council. Their statement: �These who have turned the world upside down have come here too� (Acts 17:6 NKJV).


Think about it. Even allowing for an overstatement by the mob, two men were having a profound effect all over the empire. How did they do that? With a million man march? Demonstrations in the cities of the Roman Empire? No, they did it with words. One thing you can say for Paul, he knew what he had.


http://www.borntowin.net/ltwcontent.aspx?ltwno=117

The holy days not only teach us God's plan of salvation, they point us directly to our Savior Jesus Christ.

Christ is our Passover. It is by putting on Christ that we put out sin (Unleavened Bread).

Christ was the first of the first-fruits, and it was through His resurrection that we can receive the Holy Spirit as Counselor, Comforter, or Advocate (Pentecost).

It is Christ who is going to intervene in world affairs on the Day of Trumpets and become King of kings and Lord and lords.

http://www.intercontinentalcog...GCC/Lesson_Ten.shtml

The Pope:
I thank the Lord for the opportunity he gives me to visit (Germany), for the first time since my election as Bishop of Rome, Bavaria, my native land," he said.

"Accompany me, dear friends, on my visit, which I entrust to the Holy Virgin," the Holy Father added.


http://www.totalcatholic.com/u...0&arcyear=&arcmonth=


The Bible plainly states that the dead "in Christ" are graveyard dead till they are "made alive" again at Christ's return (1 Cor. 15: 22-23).

This would include the dear mother of our LORD JESUS.

The Thread: God�s Appointments With History
by Ronald L. Dart
Paperback ISBN 978-1-60047-029-5
Hardback ISBN 978-1-60047-030-1


There is a thread that runs from the beginning to the end of the Bible that few seem to understand. There are specific points along that thread where God chose to act in history. In the Bible, these are called, �the appointments� of God. Because they occurred in connection with events in Jewish history, the days took on the meaning of those events. But then came Jesus, and the great events of his life and work also took place on these appointments. Moreover, the future plans of Christ are also reflected in these appointments along the thread.

Traditional beliefs say that the festivals came in with the old covenant and went out with the cross. But as you follow The Thread, you will find that explanation will not hold. The feasts we find in the Bible are transcendent, and from the very beginning pointed, not so much at Israel�s history, but at the work and ministry of Jesus Christ in history.

As you pick up The Thread and follow it, things will become clearer. The Festivals of Jehovah mark places where we can most easily find The Thread. You will understand how each of God�s holidays points to Christ and impacts your life. Understanding this will simplify the Bible and deepen your understanding.


http://www.wastelandpress.net/Thread.html

Thank you, and God bless.

quote:

Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover." "Where do you want us to prepare for it?" they asked. He replied, "As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, and say to the owner of the house, 'The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' He will show you a large upper room, all furnished. Make preparations there." They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God" (Luke 22:8-16).

There is no question but that Jesus called this meal they were eating "The Passover".

I hope the significance of this is not lost on us. This ceremony which we may call "The Lord's Supper" or "Holy Communion", in its origins was "The Passover". And this carries with it some important implications regarding the frequency of observance.

The Passover was an annual observance. It was not done weekly or quarterly, or whenever you got around to it.

The dropping of the name of the observance has allowed a variety of times of observance. The Passover, which should draw us all together on the same day, got changed to "The Lord's Supper", or some variant, and an important aspect of the day was lost.

quote:

In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk (1 Corinthians 11:17-21).

It is from this accidental reference that the term "The Lord's Supper" passes into the language as the name of the event. But Paul is making the point that they are eating their own supper instead of the Lord's Supper which, as we will see, is the Passover.

quote:

Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not! For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,

Note. Paul establishes the authority for this observance by quoting Jesus' instructions given personally to him. An important part of what he received of the Lord was the time of Jesus' observance: "the same night in which he was betrayed." The Jewish day began at sunset, and Jesus was betrayed in the night leading up to the day of the 14th, the day of His crucifixion. Paul and his readers understood that this is an annual event, not an occasional event.

quote:

and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes (vv. 24-26).

Once the observance is cut loose from its identity in the Passover, this can be taken to mean that you can do it often. But when you start from the premise that it is an annual observance, which the Passover was, then the passage doesn't support occasional observance. The emphasis is on the meaning, not the time. Paul is simply saying that "When you eat this bread, and dring this cup, you do show the Lord's death till He come." And of course, the time to do this is on the anniversary of the Lord's death.


reference: The Thread, by Ronald Dart

How interesting, the history lessons on
salvic hol(i)day(s) - preceding "passover" and the feast of unleavened ("we're outta here")bread, with manna, and; thence, in the same manner: True Manna, as continues from that amazing grace of the Lamb's Flesh and Blood from covenant to covenant; and each with His attendant COMMAND: "DO THIS...", ALL just to get us to enjoy His Real Presence. Amazing!

Welcome, philr.

I'm not sure wopik was going in the direction of appreciating the Eucharist, but I think you make a good point.

Wopick

This were you and I would part ways. Your writing reminds of Acts 1. Here we have Paul entering the House of a Gentile told to enjoy Gentile food and custom despite the fact it violated jewish law and tradition. No where here in this passage is Cornelius commanded to follow jewish law and custom. What is expected is Baptism.
ESV Bible
"Acts 15 really lays with Peter's speech against the judiazers( the followers of old jewish custom and law)Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you,(U) that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear(V) the word of(W) the gospel and believe. 8And God,(X) who knows the heart,(Y) bore witness to them,(Z) by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and(AA) he made no distinction between us and them,(AB) having cleansed their hearts(AC) by faith. 10Now, therefore, why(AD) are you putting God to the test(AE) by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples(AF) that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we(AG) believe that we will be(AH) saved through(AI) the grace of the Lord Jesus,(AJ) just as they will."

My point here is plain im not a fundamentalist I do not like to use proof texting you the follow the line of thinking in the writings of Paul through the Christians who studied under the apostles such as polycarp and others and in the writing of the Didache you see the developments from when the Church was kicked out of the synagogues forced underground and the development of worshiping on sundays, and then as Christianity grew the adaptation of the legal holidays and marking of a calendar for Christians to remember those who died the virgin mother and the life of Christ. This would develop into elaborate as the Church became more popular in the early centuries and standardized at Church counsels. Some difference developed between the East and West Greek versus Latin. My point is if you read the new testament it denounces those who preach that you have to return to Jewish ceremonial law. Again this can be found all over the writings of Paul especially.

Concerning devotion to the virgin mother and the dead in Christ. Would you agree there is no time with God.

1Peter 2:3-8 the Message
8-9Don't overlook the obvious here, friends. With God, one day is as good as a thousand years, a thousand years as a day. God isn't late with his promise as some measure lateness. He is restraining himself on account of you, holding back the End because he doesn't want anyone lost. He's giving everyone space and time to change.

My point of bringing this up whether you beleive in soul sleep which is typical adventist and definitely worldwide church of Christ beliefs or the catholic view of being with God would you not say if God is above time thier with him either way because is there already. the honoring of Mary and the apostles is already found in the 2nd century in the catacombs and the writings that survived that horrible period. Again the holidays incorporated by the victorious church after horrible Roman persecutions were to help Gentiles understand the faith and led to development of Calendars which if used properly can lead to holiness.

This does not following Jewish custom was outlawed but it was never required even by the earliest Christians and Christianity as always adapted to the Culture it finds itself in. What was important were the two Sacraments of Baptism and Eucharist, Bishops, Deacons and the Community. Later as the need developed Presbtyers ( were the English word for Priest comes from) were appointed to be extensions of the Bishop at various congregations. The Judiazers were considered the 1st heresy of the Church especially Paul's position on Grace.

Christianity is a progressive revelation that is rooted in what formed after the Christians were kicked out of the temple and synagogues because of the number of conversions and the burning of the temple and found expression through art, council and the Church Fathers. Even the Hebrew canon of the 2nd was a reaction the use of messianic jewish use of the septuagint as a tool for teaching the Christian message. This points to the fact that Christian faith formed its own identity and continued to grow sometimes sadly splitting forming varied forms and movements.