wopik, you seem to be insisting on the definitions of Hebrew words as the norms for Christian metaphysics and philosophy. It's impossible to dialogue given such a set-up. It almost seems like your real point is to say that Christian tradition is at odds with divine revelation, which was made known through the meaning of Hebrew words, and even that, only the way they were used in the earliest parts of their tradition.

- - -

Here's an interesting "take" on the subject at hand, however. Given the traditional Christian understanding of a human being as body and soul, it follows that a soul without a body is metaphysically deficient, existing in a realm theologians call an intermediate state. Because of sin, the body dies, but through faith in Christ, we become joined with him in such a manner that our soul becomes grounded not so much in its mortal body, which is passing away, but in Christ's risen, ascended body. Hence, the soul, even after death, continues to live not simply due to its immortal spiritual nature, but by virtue of its connection with the sacred body of Christ and the life-giving Spirit Who flows through Christ. Even those who do not value the contributions of Greek philosophy to Christian thinking ought to be able to affirm such a continuance of the life of the soul after death. Unless one equivocates body and soul, so that the loss of the body means loss of the soul, or else view the gift of salvific grace given the soul as contingent on the existence of the body, then I don't see why this couldn't be affirmed. Actually, the obstacles to such an affirmation seem to be heresies that have been formally quashed.

quote:

Even those who do not value the contributions of Greek philosophy to Christian thinking ought to be able to affirm such a continuance of the life of the soul after death.

It sounds like you're saying, because the Church teaches the immortality of the soul, the soul, therefore, is immortal?

No, that's not what I'm saying. Read the sentences before for proper context.

- over and out . . .

wopik,

Thank you for the links and I read them. Allow me to share with you, if I may, how I learned and my intellectual path to the Christian faith. I was not very well educated, which is the condition of most Christians, I fear. (40% of Americans believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old )
I grew up Lutheran, and feel that I gained a good foundation there. Around 21 I had an infilling of the spirit and began to pursue alot of evangelical and pentacostal teaching on Christian television. I watched about five hours a day for years. I sent for their tapes and books. I found out who their heros were and started working my way back through the history of evangelicalism.
Eventually, I worked my way back to Luther and Calvin.Then about 5 years ago I became interested in mysticism and this took me back though 1500 years of Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic teaching. I am just finishing Paul Johnson's History of Christianity and I feel so blessed that
I am getting the big picture now.
I am finding out that Christianity is a mystery religion and sometimes all I can do is surrender to the mystery. I really made myself miserable for years when in my desire to figure it out and control it, I was worshipping the book rather than the author and I got really confused by this approach and found that it is not the only one.
A fellow I know wrote a book called The Seven Deadly Needs and one of them was the need to be right. That one has caused me alot of trouble. Sometimes when I need to be right, I get left
Blessed are those who continue to seek with an open heart and mind
caritas,
michael <*))))><

Plato and the Bible say the exact opposite things.

Plato says the soul would never perish, die or be destroyed;

Plato says the soul [psuche] cannot see death [thanatos]; James 5:19-20 says when we turn a sinner from error, we save a soul [psuche] from death [thanatos].

(see, 1 Timothy 4:16.)

Christ told one of the thieves crucified with Him that he would be in paradise (Luke 23:43).

Since many believe in continued consciousness, they placed the comma before "today".

"Today" was the day Christ made the promise, not the day they would be in paradise.


Jesus emphasized "today" because the thief repented and believed in Jesus that day. The previous day he was lost.

Moses uses the word "today" similarly in Deuteronomy 30:16-18. In verse 16, he commands them "today" to follow the Lord. He was not saying they only had to follow the Lord that day. Just as Moses gave the command that day, Jesus gave the promise that day.


Then Moses says, "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish . . ." (Dt. 30: 17-18).

They did not perish that day. In fact, they did not even perish the first day they turned away, because of God's patience and mercy.

Hello to all the wonderful folks at Shalom Place.

some excerpts from Holman Bible Dictionary, article: soul -----

In the Bible, a person is a unity. Body and soul or spirit are not opposite terms, but rather terms which supplement one another to describe aspects of the inseparable whole person.

Such a holistic image of a person is maintained also in the New Testament even over against the Greek culture which, since Plato, sharply separated body and soul with an analytic exactness and which saw the soul as the valuable, immortal, undying part of human beings.

According to the Bible, a human being exists as a whole unit and remains also as a whole person in the hand of God after death. A person is not at any time viewed as a bodiless soul.

http://www.studylight.org/dic/...iew.cgi?number=T5974

wopik, there were many views of human nature in biblical times.

Nevertheless, the sola scriptura approach often brings different perspectives from Christian theologies also informed by Sacred Tradition. Perhaps it is your desire to expose that reality? Whatever the case, I concede your point, and have no problem with it.

Now, then, perhaps you tell us how one can continue to be a "whole person in the hand of God" after death when the body rots in the ground.

Good day, Phil ---

The dead body (nephesh), the dead soul (nephesh) will be resurrected back to life, sometime in the future.

Num. 9:6, 7, 10 --http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html

Nephesh is used of man, as actually dead, in thirteen passages, and is rendered in three different ways --

1. "the dead" - Lev. 19:28; 21:1; 22:4. Num. 5:2; 6:11.

2. "dead body" - Num. 9:6, 7, 10.

3. "body" - Lev. 21:11. Num. 6:6; 19:11, 13. Hag. 2:13.


http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html

the thing is that if we belive in imortality we are then beliving the devil lie wich said that we are inmortal , in facth it was the lie tah he told the first couple. they were not inmortal , yet because they have to eat outh of the tree of life and since they were forbidden to do it . they became mortal , not because of the sin but because of not eatin from the tree of life. ok God did not permit them to eat from the tree because they were some kind of poluted with the first friut, so he make a provision to take away the polution outh of this body on a future time.please visite my new page lared cristiana

directo, immortality is different from eternity. Immortal creatures have a beginning but not end; eternity is no beginning and no end. In fact, the first ones did die, if death is understood to be the end of life in the body. To say that their spirit lived on is not to say they went to heaven, however.

I'm wondering if you, wopik and others really believe that human beings have a spiritual nature. Spiritual beings are immortal. When they leave the physical body with death, they continue to live. The angels are spiritual beings; even after the Fall, the bad ones continued to live, though in a state we call Hell. Falling from grace doesn't mean the end of the existence of a spiritual being, for if it did, we would have no evil spirits. You and wopik are not taking any of this into account with your text-proofing method.

Of course, if you don't believe human beings are really spiritual--i.e., that we only obtain a spiritual nature through faith in Christ--then your view makes sense. That reduces human nature to a body and psyche, however--a view which not even Scripture proposes.

bery god, then imortality is not the same as eternal, thats why God is eternal and we can be inmortal in the name jesus name. the inmortality wil be diferent of those of the spirits? also thw spirits are mortal or destroyable, remember the fire that fall from haven in the land of goog and maggog? and the lake off fire was prepareed for the devil and his allies which are if im not cunfused spirits, jesus come the new awernnes of the posibilitry of manipulate the matter with the spirith , we call it miracles , even mary baker said that the matter do not exist wich is a litle faar of but not too much , because the apostol paul said that the flesh is against the spirit, and that we will be a new creation and that even the nature will enjoy the freedom of the children of God wich i presume is everlasting life