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http://www.washingtonpost.com/...24841-2005Feb14.html I've only read the first chapter, but I like it so far. It explains in part why George Bush is steadily dropping about 1 1/2 points in his approval rating each month and is curremtly @ 44%. Less than twenty per-cent of America believes that abortion and homosexuality are the #1 moral problem facing the nation. Over two thirds say that GREED is the #1 moral problem. I agree. As Willis points out, there are 3,000 scriptures about money in the bible and none of them say "tax cuts for the rich".  veritas, mm <*))))))>< | |||
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Gee, ya suppose a hostile, anti-religious press and academia might have had something to do with this? In fact, until I met Phil, Johnboy and all the rest of you, my outlook on religion was relatively one-dimensional and incomplete. Most religious people are good, decent, no-nonsense people. Sure, some are zealots and nuts but I believe the higher percentage of these types exist on the Michael Moore side of the fence�and by a wide margin. Oh, for heaven�s sakes. What drivel. George Bush and America are not out for empire. And those who bring up Abu Ghraib at a moment�s notice, of course, have no axes to grind. That�s good, but no medals will be given out for stating the bleedin� obvious. MM said: Less than twenty per-cent of America believes that abortion and homosexuality are the #1 moral problem facing the nation. Over two thirds say that GREED is the #1 moral problem. I agree. As Willis points out, there are 3,000 scriptures about money in the bible and none of them say "tax cuts for the rich". I agree completely with those who say that the religious right has erred in making homosexuality such a big issue. But abortion is no small issue and it would be a travesty if even those of religious faith were to sweep this issue under the rug. As to 2/3 saying that greed is the #1 moral problem then I say "What is your proposed solution?" | ||||
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. . . "tax cuts for the rich". That's kind of a "red flag" for me when that term is used, as the cuts have been across the board. Besides, what do people think the rich do with their extra money? Put it in jars under the mattress? Their investments crank up the economy . . . which has been "cranked up" since W came along. Unemployment is pretty low and so are inflation and interest rates; the stock market is strong and steady . . . the economy has greatly improved, despite the recession setting in around 2000, 9/11, and the bursting of the hi-tech stock bubble. Willis is definitely on the left of issues, so his remarks are not surprising. People like him love to quote Jesus on non-violence (there is no clear teaching from Jesus on such), but ignore the fact that for 1,600 years, the Church has allowed for just wars when such is preferable to an unjust peace. For Catholics, the question WWJD is answered in the teachings of the Church. There is clear teaching on the lips of Jesus on this point in the New Testament. | ||||
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I'll have a great deal more on Jim Wallace as I see him as the most interesting centrist on the scene. Many evangelicals are going in his direction. It used to be that Baptists and Catholics were just as likely to vote Democrat. Someone has to take a stand for the poor, and I applaud Wallis for doing that. Raise taxes! Stop the wealthy from getting their grubby little hands on the Social Security trust fund. Send missionaries to the corporate world. They are obviously in great spiritual need. Change the values of the corporate culture. I thought busy executives were going in for spirituality as an anti-stress remedy. What happened? Mother Teresa said that we were materially rich and spiritually poor. I think she may have had a point. Wallis is an old Vietnam protester, and a mushy pacifist. I'm not agreeing with him about the war, but am glad there are a few Quaker types still around. Thomas Merton was against Vietnam too, he drew the line at violent protest, though. It's good to remember that God loves Iraqi kids too!  caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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Someone has to take a stand for the poor, and I applaud Wallis for doing that. Raise taxes! Yes. Let us take a stand for the poor! Lower taxes and create more jobs and more opportunity. Stop the wealthy from getting their grubby little hands on the Social Security trust fund. There is no trust fund. Money is paid out as soon as it comes in. What George Bush, in effect, is wanting to create is a sort of trust fund�a savings account, more or less. Send missionaries to the corporate world. They are obviously in great spiritual need. Change the values of the corporate culture. Actually, I like that idea -- a lot. While we�re at it, let�s change the values of the culture in academia and the media. In fact, since college professors or news anchors produce very little compared to a business executive or worker (and create a whole lot of mayhem via their lies and disinformation), let�s start there if there are not the resources to do all at once. Mother Teresa said that we were materially rich and spiritually poor. I think she may have had a point. Yes, but that�s still better, perhaps, than being materially poor and spiritually poor. You might disagree, but I do not think that it is automatically enriching and ennobling simply to be poor. I'll have a great deal more on Jim Wallace as I see him as the most interesting centrist on the scene. I think what we need are people who understand both the left and the right and who can use the best of both. To be a centrist in search of the truth is a bit of an oxymoron in my opinion. There are good truths on both sides and I certainly wouldn�t say that compromise is not a good thing, but too often these centrists do little more than "listen to both sides" and then come out with some mushy doctrine in the middle that has the strengths of neither and the faults of both. But I do hope you post more on Jim Wallace, MM. Let�s see if his idea of "centrist" is simply watered-down conviction. | ||||
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Shall I bring up spiral dynamics here? Jim Wallis' positions are Pure D Green, and so he reacts to Bush's Blue/Orange streak in predictable fashion. If he at least demonstrated a little more appreciation for the Blue and Orange contributions to the development of modern culture, he'd be a lot more credible. It's good to remember that God loves Iraqi kids too! Right . . . maybe so much so that He moved heaven and earth to get the U.S. military to overthrow Saddam and get those genocidal U.N. economic sanctions lifted. It's been rough in Iraq during the past two years, for sure, but fewer children have died since the invasion than during the two years preceding it. Not that you'll ever read that in a book by Jim Wallis. | ||||
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Ok, you can probably find something good about voodoo economics over at the Cato institute, but I knew a guy who helped the wealthy shelter their money in Grenada and Bermuda. Hows it going to trickle down from there? The same way it's been trickling out of the S.S. trust fund? God himself transfers money from the wicked to his people, and I can back that up with the bible. If the govt. won't do it, it will happen anyway. God knows a hundred ways to do this. I hope some millionaire send Phil a few hundred grand, so he can minister full-time! That's only one way...This is in the bible, from whence this cometh also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_social_teaching As I said, he's wrong about the war. I don't think he interacts with alot of Seals and Green Berets. As far as Jesus having an option for the poor, I believe that he has an option for all people, but is especially concerned about the orphan and the widow, etc. Merton was a centrist and so was C.S. Lewis and Billy Graham, I conclude, after the 900+ page autobiography, is a centrist too. I'd add J.I. Packer to the list and probably a host of other I can't think of at the moment. How about Dag Hammarskjold, Deitrich Bonhoeffer and Benjamin Disreali? No doubt this will become a lengthy thread... caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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Well, there's at least one lesson in that: High taxes drive people and their assets away. A lot of businesses fled California because of high taxes and onerous regulations. Washington State is unfortunately a state inundated by liberal politics and we are driving businesses away. Boeing has made no secret of this. I won't defend illegal tax shelters and schemes, but those offshore shelters such as Grenada and Bermuda serve a vital purpose: they help to set an upper limit on taxes and regulation. As long as there is a place to which people can move their money then there will be constraints on even the most spendthrift and anti-business politicians and bureaucrats. Re: Catholic social teaching. In my opinion, much of that stuff is in need of updating or clarification. For example: Well, you can treat the poor with platitudes or you can give them a robust economy, a solid education, opportunity and economic freedom. Hopefully the "traditional" (old-fashioned, really) idea of helping the poor will apply to those who can't help themselves or who need extra help. And, of course, in one's personal or church life one is free to help who one will. And, of course, in the Christian religion one is required to do so. But effective and humane public policy must recognize the dehumanizing and soul-draining effect of overly socialist policies that rob one of self, dignity and the capacity to use one's god-given talents. No doubt this will become a lengthy thread... I hope so, MM, because I learn a lot from your stirring and passionate defense of the centrists. It almost makes me wish I was one. | ||||
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George Herbert Walker Bush has an economics degree from Yale, and mine is only from "Yail," but then my name is Yohnny Yohnson. What did the President mean, "voodoo"? http://mirrors.korpios.org/resurgent/23More.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_Economics And what might Ann Coulter's nemesis opine? http://www.salon.com/news/col/huff/2002/09/05/voodoo/ It would seem that the idea has much political fuel but runs on fumes in acadamia. Feel free to bash Arianna around a bit, as she loves a good fight. thatvoodoothatyoudosowell.net | ||||
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_Loan_scandal Another breakout of greed run riot. This may be one of the reasons the U.S. congress, at a 37% approval rating, is not being trusted on the Social Security issue. They already cut the HUD budget by 11% this year. Poverty and homelessness are on the rise and who wants the people from Enron and Halliburton managing their money? Gordon Gecko types have already raided hundreds of pension funds and downsized and mergered and aquisitioned millions out of their jobs and retirements. This is like Revenge of the Nerds. Actually, with all the gerrymandering, they will most likely keep control of the house in 2006, so I'll have to find a reason to like them. Plus, I voted for them and my ego is on the line. disillusionedinDenver.com | ||||
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Poverty and homelessness are on the rise and who wants the people from Enron and Halliburton managing their money? Jeepers, all this time, and I hadn't realized that MM was such a (. . . drumroll . . . ) Liberal!    You raise some good points, here, MM, but surely you also know that Haliburton doesn't manage anyone's money. Rather, they *receive* our money -- big difference!  But this discussion raises a deeper, interesting point, and it's one that Brad has already addressed, which has to do with how one responds to the problems you're raising. Certainly, emergency relief is needed, and I don't hear anyone on either side of the aisle, here, advocating against that. But the question of what to do remains, and here there is a difference in emphasis, with conservatives (spiral dynamics Blue/Orange) wanting to strengthen the economy, the job market, standard of living, opportunity, etc. while liberals (Green) mostly want to re-distribute income, with the federal government playing referee and managing the books. Between these two extremes, there are many possible outcomes, the negotiation of which is ever an ongoing process among our people and government. The Social Security issue is a good example of this kind of discussion in the U.S. I've already started a thread on it so maybe we can post our comments on that particular issue on that thread. I will say one thing about the "God" part, however, and it's that I think liberals bring it up unfairly, and largely because they're "losing" lately in the debates. People like Wallis pull no punches in connecting their ideas with biblical principles, and so remind us that people like Jerry Falwell don't have the whole truth. But it's unfair to accuse religious conservatives of wanting something akin to a theocracy when all they're really doing is the same thing Wallis is doing -- forming judgments about political and economic issues in the light of their faith and moral principles. The only way around this kind of thing is to bring the discussion into a "neutral ground," outside of the realm of religious considerations, but Protestants are ill-equipped to do so insofar as they have distanced themselves from a "natural law" approach to morality--an approach that Catholicism has championed through the centuries. | ||||
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What did the President mean, "voodoo"? I think Bush 41 was simply wrong when he characterized Reagan�s economic principles as "voodoo economics". I guess he thought he could score points by using a catchy phrase. I suppose George H.W. Bush simply didn�t believe that if you put money back into the hands of those who earned it instead of putting it under control of the unproductive, wasteful and generally unimaginative hands of government that good things would happen. Not only is letting people keep more of their money a fair and just thing to do, but people can make much better use of money than government. Reagan�s (and Margaret Thatcher�s) economic policies brought untold relief, opportunity and wealthy to people who were being smothered under stifling socialist policies. George Herbert Walker Bush has an economics degree from Yale, and mine is only from "Yail," but then my name is Yohnny Yohnson. Nonsense, MM. I find you well-read and well-rounded. But allow me to round out your conservative education. You, hopefully, will do the same for me.They already cut the HUD budget by 11% this year. Poverty and homelessness are on the rise and who wants the people from Enron and Halliburton managing their money? You�re assuming, MM, that government is the best means to solve that problem. That, in my opinion, is an unjustified assumption. We�ve quite literally spent trillions on "The Great Society" since LBJ and we have not made even a dent in poverty. It is time that these old policies be added to the trash heap of history. We�ve seen these socialist experiments carried out in their purest form in the Soviet Union, China, and Cuba. We either learn from this (and the tens of millions of deaths that resulted from it) or we don�t. If we automatically assume that cutting government spending is equivalent to making a problem (any problem) worse, then we show, I think, that we have not learned from the past. This idea that "Federal money spent = compassion and help" is not always true, and in fact, may rarely be true. There are other means to help people other than using the strong arm of government to forcibly take money from one neighbor to give to another, although these means are often not particularly useful for certain demagogueing politicians to promote. Phil said: But the question of what to do remains, and here there is a difference in emphasis, with conservatives (spiral dynamics Blue/Orange) wanting to strengthen the economy, the job market, standard of living, opportunity, etc. while liberals (Green) mostly want to re-distribute income, with the federal government playing referee and managing the books. Between these two extremes, there are many possible outcomes, the negotiation of which is ever an ongoing process among our people and government. I think that�s a good outline of what we do, why we do it, and what we should continue to do. It seems abundantly clear by now, despite centuries of actual evidence on which to draw and years spent in school supposedly learning all the ins and outs of this stuff, that people (me included) are going to continue to see economics in terms of one of the other: the exploitive capitalists or the overbearing central-planning statists. Obviously part of this dichotomy is fed by the nature of politics and citizenship. We don�t, as citizens, spend enough time on the esoterica of economic policy (who in their right mind would want to?) so therefore we are vulnerable to demagoguery by ambitious politicians. But our unique life experiences also seem to lead us to favoring one approach over the other. You�d think that a good appreciation of both sides of this debate would be optimal (and I�m betting it would) but as long as the heads are butting from both sides of this debate it seems that, well, not an optimal solutions appears but one that is often "good enough". �but Protestants are ill-equipped to do so insofar as they have distanced themselves from a "natural law" approach to morality--an approach that Catholicism has championed through the centuries. That�s interesting, Phil. Score one for Catholicism. | ||||
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Jim Wallis' mentor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Day And a couple of his freinds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Berrigan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Berrigan He is also rather fond of Father Romero and Bishop Desmond Tutu.  This mean green meme is still working it's way through the culture and still has work to do. A fairly recent development is the presence of wheelchair ramps and handicapped parking spaces. It's taken thousands of years to reach this point, so let us celebrate the mean green meme. caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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MM, I didn't say anything about a *mean* Green meme, only a Green one. I don't think Wallis, Berrigan, etc. are mean Greenies at all. Somewhere we have a thread on the MGM, so maybe that would help. I'm all for Green, as it has helped to promote justice throughout the world. It's when it forgets the importance of Blue and Orange that problems begin, or, worse, when these levels aren't even much developed in Greenies to begin with. Then the lower Red and Purple layers bleed through -- hence, the MGM. | ||||
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I became a mean meen green memer for awhile there, and it's a phase of development. The problem is when as Carolyn Myss has pointed out, our "woundedness" becomes our power and the main focus of bonding and intimacy in the culture. Fortunately, I had some freinds who whacked me upside the head and said, "snap out of it!" Still, I'm great-full that attitudes toward the infirm and mentally ill are changing for the better. The Recovery Movement has been quite a social revolution, but victims have to grow up someday... http://www.adultchildren.org/ http://www.recovery.org/acoa/acoa.html http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ http://alcoholism.about.com/od/adult It's quite a change of consciousness when a whole generation breaks the silence. There is bound to be a strong reaction in the other direction, and this, I believe, has affected American politics. By the way, do you like Berrigan? which books are on Phil's recommended reading list? caritas, mm <*))))) >< | ||||
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http://www.westword.com/issues...14/news/feature.html This is a good example of a centrist experiment. Is this red, blue or green? The devil is in the details, but what would Jesus do? I could picture Jim Wallis speaking in a church like this. Would Falwell go there? ---------------------------------------------------- Secondly, to speak of a rhetorical victory of Orwellian preportions is to speak of pundits and libertarian apologists who have convinced the unsuspecting public to buy into voodoo economics. Can you find a scientific defense by an ECONOMIST? Can you find an American university course which which supports supply side economics? I'd really love to stand corrected on this... | ||||
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In search of fresh ideas beyond the old liberal/conservative arguments, and attempting to locate a Christian political view, I have traveled "Down Under" to New Zealand. Visiting my dad to celebrate my fourty-fourth trip around the sun and to watch the world end on NBC, he was telling me about his trip to the set of Lord of the Rings and how nice it would be to live and work there. http://www.nzine.co.nz/life/imperial4.html Imperial British Conservative Party? Where do I sign up? I like this one too, since cooperation is sought between Church and state. Could this happen here? http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mayhone/SWNZ.htm thinkingoutside&downunderthebox.com | ||||
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A fairly recent development is the presence of wheelchair ramps and handicapped parking spaces. It's taken thousands of years to reach this point, so let us celebrate the mean green meme. All made possible, I might add, by a robust capitalistic economy where the basis of that wealth is the notion of private property and the freedom of people to keep what they earn. I�m a big fan of kind hearts. It�s just that I have an expanded definition of what true kindness is. I don�t limit it to the peace activists and those who scoop off a percentage of the proceeds of free enterprise to build added amenities. It�s great that we can afford to do so but it is not simply a result of a generous will having been expressed that wheelchair ramps and handicap parking spaces get built. | ||||
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Looked like a Black Church. Doing it on principle as directed by Scripture is Blue; in addition, doing so with an eye on how the culture has repressed gays is Green. FWIW, I don't think there are many Churches that exclude gays from worship and membership. Ordaining someone in an openly gay relationship is another matter, as is gay marriage, of course.Forty-fourth trip around the sun! Wow, that's a lot of traveling you've done. I haven't even been once around. Of course it could! Only, the question would be the same one they'll have to contend with: who will pay for it? | ||||
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Wallis has to settle for a rather weak case against the war, IMHO, which he does not percieve as just, and is concerned about Bush's "bad theology" in feeling he is called to be president and has been chosen to carry out America's God-given mission. Guess that I have "bad theology" too... He's bringing out the shadow, mentioning unpleasant items such as America's continued support for right-wing death squads and Guatemalan dictatorships, and this Washington Post piece by George Will: http://washingtonpost.com/wp-d...16108-2004May10.html Something I learned as a twelve-stepper, "You've gotta hug your demons, or they'll bite you in the backside." He mentions every religious group in the world, with the exception of the Southern Baptists as being opposed to the war. I'd have to check on that, and has he consulted Aquinas or the Dalai Lama? PaxAmericana.org | ||||
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Wallis has to settle for a rather weak case against the war, IMHO, which he does not percieve as just, and is concerned about Bush's "bad theology" in feeling he is called to be president and has been chosen to carry out America's God-given mission. And, ironically, Wallis would like to do exactly the same thing, only with a different theology. It's a classic case of spiral dynamics Green reacting to Blue and Orange, and likewise on the other side. Only when one finally grows somewhat in the second-tier, Yellow level can one value all these levels and their unique contributions. | ||||
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It's a classic case of spiral dynamics Green reacting to Blue and Orange� For those who don�t fully understand Spiral Dynamics, allow me to illustrate:  ----- Disclaimer. I really DO find value in Spiral Dynamics and the above prank should not be taken to mean otherwise. But if you assume that I DO find value in a good prank you may fully assume this is so. | ||||
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Very interesting . . . Funny think is that you could switch around the colors for any of these three symbols and it would work OK. | ||||
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That's a natural for me, as I have lifelong experience with having a big yellow stripe down my back. Lot's of arrows sticking in there too! Wallis and Haynes from USA Today's Religion and Values Series: http://www.usatoday.com/news/o...n-valuesseries_x.htm http://www.usatoday.com/news/o...n-valuesseries_x.htm Religion need not divide us and Niether GOP nor Dems have a clue. I'm tracking with Wallis and I would not underestimate him by believing that he does not see in many ways the limitations of the MGM. peace(throughsuperiorfirepowerwhennecessary).org | ||||
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Those were good articles, MM. Thanks. I agree that the issues at stake in the culture wars are overly simplified when characterized in terms of moral values, for both sides really do care about such, only they have disagreements about them. The part that spiral dynamics clarifies is that the issue is more about the underlying value meme mindset rather than the content of the values. These vMemes are intrinsically adversarial, to some extent, and so it's not surprising that they're going at it with each other. I think it's even healthy; the "mean" version of each system is another matter, and, as I mentioned earlier, I don't see Wallis as a MGM. He's a good healthy Green prophet, and I don't think he has much use of the mean versions of anything either. But my point a couple of posts above still stand, however. While Wallis and other Christian Greenies denounce Bush and the religious right for acting as though they have some kind of mandate from God to use their power a certain way, a Wallis President would be doing the same thing, only in the service of Green, egalitarian emphases. This would please Wallis enormously, which is how the Blue evangelicals feel about Bush. Christianity and America needs to hear all these perspectives and negotiate who we are and what we stand for. Thanks an ongoing process, as you know, and sometimes there are winners and losers. Wallis' guy lost the last election; maybe it'll be different next time. The challenge for him is to try to persuade more people that his approach is what the country needs right now, and if he can do this through the Churches (like the evangelicals did with Bush), then that's what he should try to do. | ||||
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