Since several of us have the book, and it was delivered to me by supernatural means, and offers a different approach than John Main and Contemplative
Outreach, I feel it may be appropriate for discussion. How do others feel about this?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi.../0877936412?v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi.../0877934509?v=glance

http://www.spiritualityhealth....review/excp_872.html

http://www.spiritualityhealth....review/item_872.html

http://www.quakerbooks.org/get/0-87793-641-2

Thanks to geridoc for the idea, mm

MM:

I've ordered the book, so this might be a good way of discussing prayer as each of us utilizes the author's guidance. Of course, I don't have anything to go on other than geridoc's recommendation, and those at amazon, but usually those reviews are worth trusting. The limit to books on prayer is that they don't substitute for the actual experience, and so any good evaluation of a book is only as good as those attempting to incorporate its meaning at a very practical level. IOW, we often make more time and energy to read about prayer than to commit ourselves to its discipline and the powerful claim of God it ushers into our lives.

WC Said:
" IOW we often make more time and energy to read about prayer than to commit ourselves to its discipline and the powerful claim of God it ushers into our lives."

AMEN to that WC, AMEN to That!!!
Sista Glory Allejuia

Pauline:


You're not rolling in the church isle, are you?

I don't really mean to be mean to you Pauline, but for some reason you just make me want to watch a lot football and go back to chewing tobacco. Everyman man has a cowboy archetype trying to saddle his horse.

Oh shucks WC, I could help you with that !!I love to ride horses !!!!
(Not really, I don't have the patience for taking care of them, but I have several girlfriends who jokingly refer to themselves as "pony whores" )
You'd most likely prefer relating to Sister Immaculate Conception, Sister Flowing Grace or who kmows...maybe..Sister Florid Pointed Rose Petal..
I'll tone it down for ya' if it's really a problem. ...Writing tends to bring out my more frisky side..in person I'm rather quiet actually.

The limit to books on prayer is that they don't substitute for the actual experience, and so any good evaluation of a book is only as good as those attempting to incorporate its meaning at a very practical level.

One thing I've done, WC, is to try to make prayer as completely and childishly honest and innocent as I can. If I think I find myself trying to have an "experience" out of it, it feels exactly like the reason I often have a hard time connecting to people in real life. I tend to view them as objects to be used for my gratification. Now, lest one think there's a psychopath in your midst, isn't it quite common for the somewhat dysfunctional to orient themselves to trying to get other people to fix them, no matter how subtly we may have this in our mind? I'm learning, I think, to take a different orientation toward people which, of course means receiving (graciously and attentively, if possible) as well as giving. But I was often trying to force things and therefore my "receiving" too often became a "taking". And people instinctively are repelled by manipulation and can sense it no matter how subtle and unintentional one is about it. And then I thought, gee, that's exactly how I've often been approach god in prayer.

Long story short, I stopped trying to be fancy. I try to be just as honest, unsophisticated, child-like and unpretentious as I can without trying, also, to make the error of thinking I have to do it perfect. Sometimes I just speak out loud as if talking to a friend standing right next to me. (For obvious reason, I avoid doing this in public.) And sometimes the words are silently said in my head. And sometimes I am just quiet, not trying to do anything, nor am I hopefully trying not to try to not to do anything. I just sort of soak it in. In either and all cases, I try to let the prayer suit my mood and not the other way around. Sometimes it's quite informal. I might literally be doing it while slicing a carrot. Other times I feel the need to set a side a place, maybe in the dark, maybe with no noise or other distractions. For me this feels like a liberating way of doing it. I try these days to avoid getting caught up in trying to duplicate a technique which inevitably makes me feel like I'm praying to something that I have no feeling for or conception of. It doesn't feel personal or personalized, if you know what I mean. And it doesn't feel like I'm being honest and open. I used to sometimes feel like I was trying to be Nadia Comaneci on the balance beam trying to get things just right, 'cause goodness knows I often have felt that I need to score a perfect 10 in prayer in order to heal my deep wounds.

This book was the result of about a decade and a half in the priesthood, and the years it takes to become a Jesuit, a twelve year process, I believe.
We all benefit from this individual's commitment to
Jesus' instructions to make disciples. This is about
as good as it gets. About 60 pages to go for me, and
it suits my level of prayer.

Drinking From a Dry Well covers many more years of experience, and contains the Jedi instructions for
more advanced practitioners like Phil and w.c.

Although reading books such as this is an important part of my practice, I spend a great deal of times wrestling with the demons and being
at peace and crying out to God in the midst of affliction. Desperation and the four letter "help"
prayer often bring an answer, if I truly want one.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

Brad:

That simplicity can really cut through the muck, Brad. The mind can't, it seems, manage to keep its id-driven identity going with such tender openness, as wonder dilates awareness, and the polarization of passion temporarily alchemizes in the heart. My rediscovery of simple prayer about 8 years ago was partly made possible by a Gestalt method, where I'd imagine Jesus sitting next to me, and just letting myself be in His presence. It was silly, as in Mr. Rogers silly, at first, but that child-like assumption allowed my mind to rest and gave my heart a chance.

MM:

It is really so sadly simple and basic. There's no sense of being advanced at all. I'm more ordinary than I've ever realized, and sad at how arrogant and resistant I am to giving and receiving love. That's all God seems to want for us: to become good, intelligent lovers via letting ourselves be known by Him. But receiving Him is so simple, as He really does the work, that the mind fears losing its conventional purpose. We're all the same at base. The first shall be last and the last first. The rest is only worth laughing about.

That simplicity can really cut through the muck, Brad. The mind can't, it seems, manage to keep its id-driven identity going with such tender openness, as wonder dilates awareness, and the polarization of passion temporarily alchemizes in the heart. My rediscovery of simple prayer about 8 years ago was partly made possible by a Gestalt method, where I'd imagine Jesus sitting next to me, and just letting myself be in His presence. It was silly, as in Mr. Rogers silly, at first, but that child-like assumption allowed my mind to rest and gave my heart a chance.

I really love the sound of that, WC. That's right up my alley, I think. If I can restate what I think about prayer, in general, in hopes of doing a better job of it, the approach I'm fond of (which can be one of many approaches, of course) is one that amplifies, ratifies, and fortifies the quite cogent notion that god is not far, is not unclear, and is not theoretical.

I think that technique of imagining Jesus sitting next to you is delightful. But might we even step that up a notch ever so slightly in existential potency? We admit, of course, that imagining Jesus beside us is just a technique, a procedure, a method because those are the kind of words we use to describe it. What I'm suggesting is that instead of acting "as if" in terms of God or Jesus, we imbibe, with positive, crystal clear certainty, that He is right there. No need to shout�or even to whisper. No need to squirm with difficult techniques, complicated procedures, or even delightful imaginings. He's as close as your intention to treat Mr. Existence himself as, well, at least as real as our own existence. We do not, after all, try to recall some event in our lives from yesterday by an "as if" technique. We don't simply imagine some replica of ourselves having done those things. We imagine our real selves having done them. I don't thing it particularly matters where, how, or when you pray as long as it is authentic. And I think authenticity starts with really receiving the other as more than an imaging or a technique, but as crystal-clear real. I would start off, if necessary, by praying for this kind of knowing and going from there.

All simply presented as fodder for discussion, of course. I sometimes find myself in prayer talking to god as if he/she/it were a therapist. Other times I just sit quietly with Him/Her/It in mind as if out of respect. Sometimes, if I'm feeling good, it will be just sitting in silent thanks. I just find it so much easier to be able to not have to sit down a "do" prayer in a "proper" way, if you know what I mean.

w.c.,

Yes, it is simple in that it is a relationship. This is where the Eastern philosophy errs, IMO, that they must become their own God.

Several times this week, I felt the Presence of "something in the room with me." How much is real and how much is my imagination I cannot say, but it is clear that I am in a relationship.

The work you are doing now, w.c. requires practice
and it can take a long time for the water to go clear and free from sediment.

Helping others worked for Thomas Green, and it worked for Theresa and John of the Cross, and it works in 12 step process. This is another weakness
of Eastern paths, IMO. Christianity says go help someone WHILE being sanctified.

I am quite susceptible to spirutual piggishness and spiritual priggishness and when I quit growing
and start swelling, people let me know. When I overintellectualize, they let me know about that too. (Finger thumping on my chest, thump! thump!)

Resting in His arms and crawling up into His lap,
crying on His shoulder and allowing another to do same.

All shall be well...

Indeed.

Christianity says go help someone WHILE being sanctified.

I think that's a beautiful distinction, MM. If we had to wait until we were perfect, would we ever do anything? And just how does one become perfect without the wisdom gained from making mistakes? And yes, sometimes we can touch people adversely with our imperfections and obsessions. We must be careful (and learn to say "I'm sorry" a lot, eh?) And a good dose of humility will surely keep any potential harm miniscule in comparison to the good and the love that we help spread. But there can be a sort of alchemy even in the imperfect interacting with the imperfect. There's no way for us to plan just exactly how to do good perfectly. So, yeah, maybe mountain tops are better for site-seeing than navel-gazing where one waits until enlightenment strikes before we do some good in the world. But I'm sure the Buddhists, for instance, would whack us over the head with their "Right Action" idea in rebuttal, huh?

Yes, it is simple in that it is a relationship. This is where the Eastern philosophy errs, IMO, that they must become their own God.

I agree, although I still think the truth is somewhere in between the notion that we are gods ourselves and the notions that we are not god, not divine, in any way, shape or form. Probably few cling to either extreme. (Although we may have run into one of those few lately, eh?) And for those sort of nearing the humans-as-divine end of the spectrum, they miss out on the real benefits of relationship, as you pointed out. And if I may be so bold, when you said Several times this week, I felt the Presence of "something in the room with me." How much is real and how much is my imagination I cannot say, but it is clear that I am in a relationship. I think you showed much humility in that statement�which is quite possibly why you had that sense of presence in the first place. And I don't think it's your imagination, but such graces seem to evaporate as soon as we claim them in such a way as to activate our egos. And that's why I believe the presence you have is absolutely real, because of the way you described it.

On the other end of the spectrum, I think we do lose a little something if we think of humans as completely un-divine. And, frankly, I don't know many who really truly do so. Human life and existence are quite incredibly. There's no way to be sort of "blah" about all that, although you will, of course, run across some who will say "Ah, humans. Pffft. We're nothing special in this universe." Nothing special? Whuh-whuh-whuh-what? And so it's this arrogant attitude in the opposite direction that is something that I tend to keep mindful of. Yeah, you're darned right we're special. And how can there not be at least a sprinkling of divinity if we are products of the Divine? No, maybe we don't have the equivalent of a "Made in Japan" sticker on us to prove it. But maybe that's what our belly-buttons are for.

We are the children of God. Are we children that never grow up?

If we are the children of God and common sense says that all children must grow up. What then are we when we become spiritual adults?

What are we here to learn? What is the point of learning if you die and then decompose?

When the universe dies what then?

After God's plan is over what of things then?

What are we to ever do with ourselves in heaven?

In this unviverse if there is no goal then EVERYTHING is pointless?

Even just "being" seems pointless at times. Because when I die then there will be no "being".

So is my existence a pointless temporary experience or is there an ultimate goal?

I don't want to even finish college because isn't it a waste of time? WIll I take my degree to the grave with me? There are better things to do than put all my stakes in this life.

I think I'll just roll the dice and be a free spirit. Either way it doesn't matter. None of us are getting out of here alive. Go eat drink and be merry.

Unless there is a goal or point to everything? Hmmmm...Maybe I should play it safe...SHould I then be luke warm?

If I live in the middle that is even worse then the other two choices. Becuase then I never had the confidence to make a real choice.

Funny thing that the choice is mine.

Will I go through life in the middle ground? What if I die tomorrow? What am I putting off? Why the confusion? Why no answers? Why is there even questions?

Sorry. I think I strayed way off of topic here.

Merry Christmas, Eric!

From the last page of When the Well Runs Dry:

My Lord, My love,

You have called me

To float down the dark river
which leads to the kingdom of light.

May my journey be for the healing

Of those to whom you send me

Who walk in the shadow of death.


In Thomas Green's case, I would say that the road to heaven is paved with good intentions.

Merry Christmas, MM.

I think I am going to sit down and read that book someday soon. That was a very enlightening verse.

We are the children of God. Are we children that never grow up?

If we are the children of God and common sense says that all children must grow up. What then are we when we become spiritual adults?

What are we here to learn? What is the point of learning if you die and then decompose?

That's a fascinating question to me, Eric, and once again I think you fleshed out a rather complex idea rather well. And synchronistically, that's something that I've been sort of thinking about thinking about. This might not be the right place to do so, but what the hay. Maybe MM can work his moderating magic and cut and paste this into a thread. Not sure what that title of that thread would be. It's sort of about the purpose of the universe, but it seems to be about something else as well. Perhaps how existence itself (our world, our earth) fits into the Big Picture.

Why have physical reality? At the moment I'm confident of the existence of some kind of Other realm, although I couldn't begin to tell you what that realm is or what it's like. And I don't feel for sure one way or another whether I will be a part of that, but I feel quite assured that there is nothing to worry about, that I will be taken care of. In whatever faith or connection I've made now, I have a warm feeling of confidence that, just like Julian said, ..all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well. But I'd change all them "shall's" to "are's". Maybe that's a quibble, but I don't think so. It's the difference perhaps between seeing the earth as a sinful cesspool and seeing it as a bit of creation growing in love. I don't care to sort of split off physical reality from Transcendent reality. I don't see the latter as being some kind of reward because the former is so hard, although I readily admit that surely this is probably partly true. But I deeply believe there is an Essence to this world that is to be fully grasped and not just be shuffled off as if the earth were a booby prize, second best, a test, a school, even though, again, I think there's some truth to all of that.

I hope you proceed with other thoughts, Eric. Yes, what is the point of learning if we just die and decompose? And that strikes a similar thought in me. What would be the point of a spiritual life, connection, and reality, and all this flowing love that cements it, if it were to just disappear?

What are we to ever do with ourselves in heaven?

I think our creative imagination (and humility�and perhaps piety, especially prudity) has trouble grasping a conception of heaven; perhaps because that conception is perhaps not "earthy" enough (thus we might sort of connect the two realms here�and perhaps expect to see a connection.) I've read something lately about whether or not there would be sex in heaven. The answer was sort of "yes, and no". The idea was that there would be something far more pleasurable to it so it really wouldn't make sense to have "just" sex. The analogy the writer made was it was just like asking some kid if there was anything in the world he or she would want more than some candy? Well, candy is one of their greatest pleasures. They can't comprehend this adult thing that we do would be better. So they'd surely take the candy. And so regarding what we might do in heaven? First off, you'd think it would be a bit boring. But I think that right here on earth we get a sampling for the pleasures (spiritual or otherwise) that are to be had. I think too often we separate heaven and earth needlessly. I think we all assume we'll just float around some vast space with some endless buzz of joy and love. But that sounds like a dumbed-down heaven to me. Think about those fantastic spiritual experiences that you've described, Eric. Now use your imagination. Endless orgasms with 72 virgins probably wouldn't even make us do a double take.

And surely there's always video games.

I don't want to even finish college because isn't it a waste of time? WIll I take my degree to the grave with me? There are better things to do than put all my stakes in this life.

I think that's another fantastic question. But I think we have to phrase things right, or put them in the right context. We have to, I think, see the larger context, and that, at least to my mind, is a universe created by love, for love. Evolution exists because the point of it all is to freely move toward love. And, damn, what a great feeling love is. So all that college stuff, all the jobs, the wives (well, hopefully just one), kids, house, everything, are simply amazing vehicles for the expression of love. They only become mere things, possessions, controlling devices, ego trips, and, most importantly, mere temporal things when we haven't yet grasped the big picture, when we extract them out of context.

I don't know what the Big Context is, Eric, but I do think there is surely one. And you ask some most tough and logical questions, I think. Why earth? Why complete anything here if it is just going to just decay and be left behind? And I think we need to come back to love. The real question is why is our physical existence needed for its cultivation among distinct and free beings? I haven't a clue. But I do think that every loving thing we do has great power. It will not be forgotten and is not forgotten. If this universe is created by love and fore love, then imagine the wonderful and surely permanent graffiti our loving actions make. Let's not split heaven and earth too quickly just yet. Let's not say that one is going to heaven and one is going to hell. That, I think, is what we get when we applied our rather limited human minds to the problem. But it seems to me that that is just running into the same problems that you're running into when one isn't considering things from a mor e integrative perspective. What if the Big Picture isn't about separating but integrating?

You've probably noticed that the universe is put together in such a way that even if you don't grasp the big picture, one can still make a life. Even if one isn't particularly religious and has no overt connection to god, one can still have fun and do loving things. My integrative guess is that this loving god is just going to take everyone and let them share their experiences together at some point. Throw it all together in the kitty, so to speak. Are we not told to love one another? Well, instead of perhaps the point being to separate the saints from the sinners, we'll all be able to share the best of all of our experiences and sort of bring along the stragglers, those who were running behind. Wouldn't that be the loving thing to do? And after all, we do, in a sense (and as so may often tell us) seem to be a part of a whole. Then why the heck wouldn't we at some point make use of this fact? I say that the nature of this physical universe indeed foreshadows what to expect. And part of that nature is that it is very efficient with how it goes about things. It's efficient. Even clever. If we're all one then, yeah, that's going to be significant somewhere down the line. It's more than just some schmaltzy new-age concept.

Our time here is all about motion toward love. And maybe we'll be able to pool our resources. Heck, why does prayer work right now, right here on earth? Doesn't that perhaps show the kind of loving connection between all creatures?

And so, Eric, all the loving that you do here now, or whenever, and forever, helps to create goodness. I read your wise words and feel that happening right now in me.

Merry Christmas.

"It's not that life is too short, it's just that you're dead for so damn long..."

BTW Mery Christmas, Brad...

quote:

Evolution exists because the point of it all is to freely move toward love. And, damn, what a great feeling love is. So all that college stuff, all the jobs, the wives (well, hopefully just one), kids, house, everything, are simply amazing vehicles for the expression of love. They only become mere things, possessions, controlling devices, ego trips, and, most importantly, mere temporal things when we haven't yet grasped the big picture, when we extract them out of context."

Yea I am getting this more and more as the little "I" and "me" settels down more deeply into my soul. I think for me, getting too caught up sometime in the the more etherial, cosmic aspects of love, or the ideals of love, it is easy to discount the oppurtunities to love in just the every day affairs of life. Lofty ideals and inspiriations have times taken me out of the moment, and still do.. And yet, this is where reason can help us determine where it is we want to put our time and energy, and most importantly "how" we put our energy out there... as it does ineveitably seem to come back around. But we can always transmute energy too, especially the more we understand the laws of nature..the mind and the soul..(you'll have to see my last post on the universe for reference to my meaning on that...I'm too lazy to rewrite it, but in this case it's an efficient intelligent use of being lazy!!! at least for me..)

I much preferred "When the Well Runs Dry" to "Drinking from a Dry Well," which has its moments, for sure, but ends up re-visiting the old arguments in favor of "acquired contemplation" using the Cloud of Unknowing as the basis for the argument -- sort of a la Thomas Keating.

Fr. Green came to the Spiritual Life Center in Wichita a few years ago while I was still working there and we visited about this briefly. He acknowledged that John of the Cross didn't necessarily recommend contemplative prayer methods like CP, but he thought they could be helpful to some who'd come to aridity but weren't experiencing infused contemplation. And that's generally true, I think.

WTWWD was a lot better in its exposition of John of the Cross' mystical teaching. Highly recommended. Of course, things hardly ever seem to happen the way St. John described.

Another good quote from the book:

With the drawing of this Love and the voice of this
Calling

We shall not cease from exploration,

And the end of all our exploring

Will be to arrive where we started

And know the place for the first time.

-T.S. Elliot, Four Quartets