http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fisk

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi.../1400041511?v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi.../184115007x?v=glance

No, I have not read the book. I intend to. Very impressed with his lectures. This is the most experienced war correspondent in the Middle East.

It takes a strong stomach and strong eyesight. Over 1000 pages and all of the gory details...

I don't like Fisk. I read a number of his articles on Afghanistan when the battles were first ensuing and his entire focus was on innocent civilians being killed, imperialist America extending its talons, etc. Precious little reference to 9/11 and the Al-Qaeda/Taliban connection. What impresses you about him, MM?

Here's some typical "back-at-ya Western hypocrites" example of Fisk's analyses, this one about the violent protests re. the Danish cartoons.
- http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk02062006.html

quote:

Had that cartoon of the Prophet shown instead a chief rabbi with a bomb-shaped hat, we would have had "anti-Semitism" screamed into our ears--and rightly so--just as we often hear the Israelis complain about anti-Semitic cartoons in Egyptian newspapers.

Yeah, but Robert, how many Moslems have the Jews killed because of those anti-semitic cartoons, published with regularity? Come on!

quote:

We can hardly exercise our political restraints to prevent Holocaust deniers and then start screaming about secularism when we find that Muslims object to our provocative and insulting image of the Prophet.

Such hypocrites we are, indeed! Tsk tsk.

quote:

And this is not a great time to heat up the old Samuel Huntingdon garbage about a "clash of civilisations". Iran now has a clerical government again. So, to all intents and purposes, does Iraq (which was not supposed to end up with a democratically elected clerical administration, but that's what happens when you topple dictators). In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood won 20 per cent of the seats in the recent parliamentary elections. Now we have Hamas in charge of "Palestine". There's a message here, isn't there? That America's policies--"regime change" in the Middle East--are not achieving their ends. These millions of voters were preferring Islam to the corrupt regimes which we imposed on them.

Of course it's all America's fault, Robert. We just knew you were going to get around to that. And, quite so: the Bush policies have achieved absolutely nothing to spark an interest in democracy in the M.E. Quite the contrary, as you've so clearly pointed out.

Sorry MM, I'm not with you on this one.

Reading the amazon reviews, there are charges of Anti-Semitism and Anti-Americanism and Anti-Anglo sentiments, and just as many claiming he is fair and balanced and none of those things.

I've got to look at my personal bias. How would God see this, not being a Westerner last time I checked?

The left does seem to like him. He strikes me as being anti-authoritarian and critical of all governments. This is a journalist's function, cry
Fisk and Moyers, etc.

I agree. Speak truth to power. Afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted.

Cockburn and Counterpunch, well... extreme, IMO.
Fisk seems a bit more neutral to me. He does not seem to take sides as far as governments, he is an equal opportunity critic.

At least, this is what I see so far...

"Who said this, and when?," Fisk asks.

"The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia
into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honor. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiques are belated, insicere, incomplete.

Things have been far worse than we've been told, our administration more bloody and inefficient than the public knows. We are today, not far from a disaster."

--T.E. Lawrence, Sunday Times, August, 1920

The left does seem to like him. He strikes me as being anti-authoritarian and critical of all governments. This is a journalist's function, cry
Fisk and Moyers, etc.

I thought a journalist was supposed to report the news?

This guy's spin is definitely anti-American. Just look at the article I parsed above. A key quote:

quote:

Now we have Hamas in charge of "Palestine". There's a message here, isn't there? That America's policies--"regime change" in the Middle East--are not achieving their ends.

How absurd is it to blame "America's policies" for Hamas' elections. To disregard the power vaccum there since Arafat's death is huge! And he certainly gives the anti-Semitism of the Palestinians a pass, doesn't he?

The few times I've read this guy, I've been reminded of Noam Chomsky, anti-American spin-meister par excellence. For these and others of like stripe, virtually everything wrong with the world is the fault of the U.S. How brilliant!

Hamas govt in Palestine as a reaction to U.S policy
does not seem very far-fetched to me. A contributing factor for sure. How could it not be?

Journalists are the fourth estate and protect democracy. They don't just shill for the administration. Since that is all most of us have seen lately, it's not surprising that few can see the difference.

I'll forever debunk the notion of a liberal media
in another thread.

It's important for me to remember that 49 out of 50 people spend their entire lifetime at mythic membership level. Chomsky is different, which may have something to do with his energy level and popularity, voted #1 public intellectual in 2005.

"Callest thou me good? There is but one that is good." -Jesus

This is an example for America. Call America good
and justify all manner of evil. This is very dangerous, IMO.

"People occasionally stumble across the truth, but usually pick themsevles up, dust themselves off and proceed on their merry way as though nothing had happened. " -Winston Churchill

"Democracy is the worst form of govt, except for all the others." -Winston Churchill

"You can fool all of the people some of the time, and you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." -Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)

90% of Americans have seldom agreed on anything, except lobbyists.

25% trust the govt, which is likely why The X-Files (trust no one) is the second most popular show in TV history. (After Star Trek which tried like all get-out to knock us out of mythic membership thinking).

"Let's look at the record." -Al Smith

Hamas govt in Palestine as a reaction to U.S policy does not seem very far-fetched to me. A contributing factor for sure. How could it not be?

What percentage do you attribute this to? It never happened in all the years Arafat was alive, if that says anything. Israel was there all those years, and U.S. policy is more committed to a two-state solution now than ever.

Again . . . Hamas openly states their commitment to the destruction of Israel, and has a long record of sponsoring suicide bombers who target buses, shopping centers, etc. of civilians. That's who the Palestinian people voted in to lead them, and they did have a more moderate alternative to choose among. Blaming the election of Hamas on U.S. policy while basically ignoring these kinds of factors is disingenuous, at best. Also ignoring the other movements toward democracy in the M.E. since the invasion of Iraq is also dishonest.

Using misinformation and logical fallacies to make a point violates basic principles of critical thinking, without which journalism is little more than propagandizing. And that, I'm afraid, is pretty much how I view Robert Fisk -- an anti-American propagandizer.

There are so many things that seldom reach the corporate media outlets. How many know that Secratary of State Madeleine Albright replied when
asked if she knew that sanctions against Iraq had caused the deaths of half a million Iraqi children;
"We think it was worth it."

Who is the we? Is it the Royal we? Is it the 1% who control more wealth and power than the bottom 95%?
Who thinks it was worth it? Chomsky has 22 books and thousands of interviews which bring up these unpleasant facts that tend to break down mythic membership consciousness, which is why he is vilified by the mainstream press, which serves it corporate masters.

Chomsky is the liberal media, and as a result is highly marginalized. William F. Buckley won't debate him or Gore Vidal sice he is smart enough not to engage in debates where he is likely to lose.

The Palestinians might well be reacting to the better part of a million deaths in a nearby country of people much like themselves during the last several administrations. That could provoke a strong reaction.

I have a great many blue meme mythic membership freinds, and they always react to criticism of the
Homeland as though someone was talking about their mother. Perhaps the Palestinians think blue meme mythic thoughts of a similar kind.

I'm just gonna have to let these kinds of things pass. But, fwiw, Michael, you've been putting on a splendid display of Green vMeme thinking, and how intractable it is to rational critique. Even the liberal U.S. media isn't Green enough for Greenies.

How do you do those green faces?

I've done alot of work around green, and those who are catching up are frequently green with envy.

There are so many things that seldom reach the corporate media outlets. How many know that Secratary of State Madeleine Albright replied when
asked if she knew that sanctions against Iraq had caused the deaths of half a million Iraqi children;
"We think it was worth it."

MM, I've been meaning to reply to this point. Do you have a reference to the quote? It's horribly callous and insensitive, for sure. Of course, the sanctions were actually imposed by the U.N., not the U.S., and they were designed to prevent Saddam from inflicting more torture and warfare. Also, these sanctions came to an end with the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Fewer Iraqis (especially children) have died since the invasion than in a comparable period before. . . not that there isn't room for improvement, here, of course.