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This one is worth seeing, IMHO, as for who looks good, Ann Coulter (my future wife), George Bush, veterans and their families, the Kurds, Iraqis, Democrats disillusioned with the left wing of their party such as actor Ron Silver and Mayor Koch, the Patriot Act, and for who looks very, very bad such as Michael Moore and everyone associated with him, Sadaam Hussein and everyone associated with him (such as French, German, Russian and Chinese officials who took bribes), the Kofigate food scam folk at the U.N.,and Americans who have not yet come out of denial and even oppose liberty. One quote from Edmund Burke flashed on the screen: -"All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." caritas, mm <*)))))>< | |||
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Thanks for the review, MM. I'll be sure to see it. Is it only in movie theatres or is it also out on video? | ||||
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Ann Coulter (my future wife) You can have her after me, MM. I'm going to be her second husband. (Or, given her temperament, her third, fourth, fifth or sixth). Check out this amusing interview with Ann. | ||||
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Brad, I'd like to read Witness by Whittaker Chambers sometime and learn more about Alger Hess and how communists infiltrated fairly high into our government at one time. McCarthy took up the "right" position against the communists, IMHO, but as Bill Wilson, founder of AA observed, most drunks are bankrupt idealists.(I resemble that remark) As his alcoholism progressed, it seems he became dishonest in pursuit of his idealism. Perhaps he had some neurosis from trauma in his early life and his "false self" was manifesting, but I just hate the way we perform psychohistory on everyone these days. (I think I just did.) Coulter seems pretty sharp and on top of things, and her book is likely to be as interesting as she is, and the DVD of Farenhype 9/11 is available. peace, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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Brad, I'd like to read Witness by Whittaker Chambers sometime and learn more about Alger Hess and how communists infiltrated fairly high into our government at one time. They did, MM, and Ann Coulter makes a good case for McCarthy. As she said in that interview, people have attributed more nuance and shades-of-gray to Hitler than to McCarthy. I'm pretty sure the conventional wisdom on him is all wrong but we must be careful not to commit the sin of counter-revisionism and paint him as an angel if he, in fact, wasn't an angel. But my back-of-the-envelope calculation is the Hoover, McCarthy and others were trying to protect this country from real villains, not phantoms � and they did for the most part. In this more libertarian age where everyone is entitled to their opinion we might not look too kindly on criminalizing belonging to the Communist Party. On the other hand, let's not be coy. There were many people who were giving aid and comfort to our mortal enemy. As much as people screamed and shouted about civil rights and witch hunts they willfully associated themselves with witches and were friendly with a government that would strip us of our civil rights in an instance if given the chance. I think most average Americans would be simply astounded if they found out just how many of the anti-war and anti-globalization movements were 100% bona fide associations of nothing more than Marxists. The same can be said of many in positions of power and influence, including teachers. The biggest mistake of McCarthy was to lose the public relations campaign. Now it's considered a major crime if one even dares to point out that so and so is an outright Marxist and hostile to capitalism, democracy and the United States. They've made it politically incorrect to point out that there are some people actively trying to subvert our freedoms. But as (Flynn?) said in one of those interviews, we've taken back much of the media and we can take back our educational system as well. I haven't read the Coulter book yet, "Treason". Have you? If so, do you recommend it? | ||||
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No, I haven't read Treason yet. A websearch at NR for Alger Hiss might produce some interesting results if they have archived articles of that vintage. All that it takes sometimes is one individual who will stand up for truth. I'm into a biography of Martin Luther and he would not back down in the face of attacks from a level of consciousness comparable to totalitarianism. Do you know an author named Frum who wrote The War on Terror? He was highlighted in Farenhype 911. caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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The U.S. Senate that censured McCarthy was not made up of communists. They recognized that McCarthyism was creating an atmosphere of hysteria, paranoia, and fear (COMMUNISTS UNDER EVERY BED!!!) way out of proportion to the actual threat. It was giving legitimate investigations a bad name. It threatened to undermine some of the most basic American values. Waving phony "lists of communists" and brow-beating people almost at random in public hearings did nothing to improve our security. We went on to do very well and win the Cold War without him. Weep not for Joseph McCarthy. Ann Coulter is a snarling low-class pinhead, the cable TV version of a professional wrestler...and just as honest. Markle | ||||
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Do you know an author named Frum who wrote The War on Terror? He was highlighted in Farenhype 911. Sorry, MM, I didn�t catch your question until Markle revived this thread. Yes, I�m familiar with Frum. I read him all the time over at National Review Online. I would consider him a quite serious thinker. Markle, I�m by no means a McCarthy expert but it�s clear that there�s a much more complete and balanced view of this story then the conventional one that has been told to us. What we�re hearing is, I think, at best "folklore" spun by the left rather than hard truth. For example, from "Why the Left Hates America" by Daniel J. Flynn: And Ann Coulter is a babe, no matter what you say. | ||||
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There were undoubtedly some "useful idiots" in Hollywood and elsewhere, as real communists called them, but the U.S. was never in danger from domestic communists to warrant the extent of the dark shadow Joseph McCarthy spread over this country. McCarthy was an unknown back-bench junior senator from Wisconsin until he saw a way to make a splash and make a name for himself. I repeat--the 1950's Senate that censured him was not a left-wing body. They saw what was happening and what he was doing. He was no hero. << And Ann Coulter is a babe, no matter what you say. >> To each his own. That tight face and the venom she spews don't do much for me. Of course, as I've said before elsewhere, her ability to unhinge her jaw like a snake could have its advantages..... Markle | ||||
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The Hidden Truth About Joseph McCarthy Daniel J. Flynn
And here�s a link that more or less gives the standard history. Notice how it starts with an attempt at character assassination. My gosh. Senator McCarthy liked to play poker! Markle, that last part in bold coincides with your understanding of McCarthy. I just think that impression is woefully incomplete and one-sided. I don�t doubt there are some skeletons in closet in the story of McCarthy. I�d just like to know which ones are real and which are propaganda. And I�d also like to know and acknowledge the positive sides to this whole story (and they may be overwhelming). | ||||
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Brad, there are legitimate criminal investigations ...and then there are fishing expeditions, hearings for show and publicity, false accusations in hearings with no legal protections, blacklists based on rumor and secret accusations, and on and on. Innocent lives were ruined by innuendo. McCarthy's hearings were close to the kangaroo courts of the evil empire we were fighting against. Once he used up whatever real communists (or sympathizers) there were in the government, he had to dig deeper and deeper into thinner ore to keep his hearings going and keep himself in the public eye. You're forgetting how his career came to an end--when the nation saw him on television dredging up a single mistake a man had made years before, and the man's lawyer said, That's enough, "at long last, sir, have you no decency?" And the country saw McCarthy sitting there, sweating with his mouth hanging open, his slimy methods openly exposed. This is America. We're not supposed to do things that way. McCarthy doesn't get promoted automatically just because liberals didn't like him. The majority of the Senate at the time were fed up with the embarrassment his methods reflected on them. It's way too late to rehabilitate the reputation of that monster. When I was a freshman at the University of North Carolina in 1966, before I transferred up north, my first American History professor was a courtly Southern gentlemen, whose eyes blazed when he talked about the damage McCarthy has done to the country. He finished by saying, "And then he went home to Wisconsin, where he performed his greatest service to his country. He died." Markle | ||||
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Markle, I know what the standard party line is concerning McCarthy and you state it rather well. My question though is "Is it true? Is it someone's self-serving fabrication?" Could it be that� or I think there's much truth to that. We've seen recently and repeatedly how successful the left has been at slandering otherwise patriotic, tolerant and upstanding people such as Ashcroft, Robert Bork or Clarence Thomas. It's not hard to imagine they did the same to McCarthy. | ||||
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THE TRUE HISTORY OF A GREAT PATRIOT The Late Senator Joseph R McCarthy narrated by Mrs Larry Lawrence Lent, his secretary published by The Government Educational Foundation, 1998
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Well, Brad, since my comments are nothing more than "the standard party line," what more can I say? Obviously I'm incapable of departing from my programming. I'm sure Joe McCarthy represented the highest attainment of humanity, the purest form of the human spirit, the greatest exemplar of the nobility of the human race in its neverending quest for perfection. They should erase George Washington from Mount Rushmore to make room for Saint Joseph's beatific visage. Thank you for setting me straight. Markle P.S. And they can blast off Lincoln's face to make room for Ann Coulter's, too. Lincoln was just another liberal believer in the federal government and a commie social engineer who deprived slaveowners of their god-given property rights. And don't even get me started on that atheist pinko Thomas Jefferson...... | ||||
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Obviously I'm incapable of departing from my programming. You may have nailed it, Markle. I haven't the time nor the inclination to become a McCarthy expert just to refute your view of things but it seems clear you're sticking to your story no matter what and any attempt to dislodge you with new information would be pointless. | ||||
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Interesting exchange! I've learned a lot about McCarthy that I didn't know. From what I've gathered as "from a distance" is that McCarthy's "charge" was to examine the extent of communist infiltration into various sectors of U.S. society, as there was (apparently legitimate) concern about this. If you read the actual resolution of his censureby the Senate, we hear: They go on to spell out other problems. This link also reviews what led up to the censure, and from what I gather, it wasn't McCarthy's patriotism that was the issue, nor, even the reality of the communist threat, but McCarthy's tactics, which had apparently over-reached the boundaries of ethical conduct, at least in the minds of his peers. | ||||
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Exactly, Phil! Precisely my point. Tactics. Methods. The devil is in the details. People can't do whatever comes into their heads just because they say their cause is right. McCarthy's methods are not validated because communism is bad. One of the very reasons anti-communism became suspect among some circles is because it became associated with the actions of that thug. McCarthy, in fact, hurt the cause of anti-communism in this way. "McCarthyism" became a dirty word. If the choice was communism on the one hand and a McCarthyite witch-hunting police state on the other hand, that choice started not to be so clear. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! Markle | ||||
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Happy Thankgiving to you, markle. What's your take on Oliver North? Just curious. caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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Here's another traditional take on McCarthy and I think it's rather a nice summary that includes the House's Un-American Activities Committee's dealings with Hollywood (which often gets smooshed together with McCarthy in the minds of people). It's gets quite ugly at times with base accusations made against McCarthy. If McCarthy is guilty of McCarthyism then it's clear he wasn't alone�and probably didn't start the practice�and that practice still goes on today. Here's another rebuttal of the standard view of McCarthy. It's in Q&A format and I thought was rather thorough: The Real McCarthy Record by James J. Drummey
Gee, that last bit sounds strangely familiar. It sounds like the job that was done on Bush in the last election. He *is*, after all, worse than Hitler. | ||||
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Paul Harvey reminds us of "The other side of the story." I was under the impression that he was a tad bit paranoid. Wonder where I got the misinformed view of him. Maybe from the liberal press? Moving along to one of Ann Coulter's favorite topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittaker-Chambers http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/C/ChambersW1.asp http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplo.../sempa_chambers.html See why Witness made Coulter's favorite book list and why next to Castro was Buckley's big obsession. caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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That's was interesting stuff regarding Chambers, MM. Most was news to me. So little time, so many Commie pinkos to uncover. (By the way, I couldn't get your Wikipedia link to work so I supplied another one.) Speaking of Wikipedia, and I have no particular bones to pick with that particular article, but it's interesting and quite good sport to see the current culture's view of things play out in things like dictionaries, encyclopedias and text books (even fictional novels � sci-fi used to be my favorite genre but it has become so liberally and politically correct obnoxious that the stories are mostly ruined.) It is true that many (but by no means all) in the left became disillusioned with Communism when Nikita Kruschev revealed the scope of terror under Stalin (not sure if he also exposed Lenin). That didn't deter the capitalist and America haters. They found new ways to hate our system and new methods and techniques to undermine it. But it is to Chambers' credit that he switched sides. It's interesting how people who have seen the other side (whether it's Michael Medved or David Horowitz, both leftist radicals at one time, just to name two) can put the situation into perspective so well. But I suppose that should really come as no surprise. And it's one reason I don't expect and don't want any politician to be "pure". We can learn much from our mistakes. The "McCarthyism" we have today in the rabid press and (particularly towards Republican candidates) and Jesse-Jackson-Democrats is not healthy. We ought to put into perspective mistakes done, say, 20 years ago, with what a person now believes (which certainly doesn't get Kerry out of his swift boat problem as he's been anti-military all his life). But on the other hand, we can't flinch from investigating and uncovering real problems. The technique today, of course, is for the left and liberals to shout "McCarthyism" at the drop of the critical or investigative hat. I believe this disingenuousness and double standard that is the real lesson of the McCarthy era. | ||||
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Re. McCarthy -- I'm sure that historians with a liberal slant have tarred and feathered him unjustly, but, OTOH, one does not receive an official censure from the Senate for just any old thing. Some of these writers attempting to rehabilitate McCarthy's reputation do seem to be glossing over this part, unless they're insinuating that some kind of vast left-wing conspiracy was at work even through the Senate. When I hear that Eisenhower (hardly a commie) feared the man and his methods, something's rotten in Denmark. Take this Q/A from the Drummey article, cited above: It seems rather gratuitous to imply that the 74 Senators who voted for censure did so because of "politics" and those who voted against were "principled." And, geez, this was the Eisenhower White House supposedly trying to play down the communist threat? We also read: Why is some of this starting to look like what happened to Bill Clinton? My point, here, is that unless one alleges "vast left-wing conspiracy" (as the Clintons did about the Right), it becomes pretty difficult to understand why all these people are so upset with this man as to have all these investigations and ultimately a formal censure. As is the case, more often than not, where there's smoke, there's usually fire, even if you can't prove it legally beyond a shadow of a doubt. Again, Bill Clinton comes to mind, here. . . | ||||
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<< The only people terrorized by McCarthy were those who had something subversive to hide in their past and were afraid that they might eventually be exposed. >> Man, how many times have we heard this one? "The only people arrested who need to speak to a lawyer are those who are guilty." "The only people who mention that the Constitution forbids making people be witnesses against themselves are those with something to hide." "The only people who don't want John Ashcroft going through their library records are those with something to hide." "You never have to fear the police if you're innocent." And on and on........ Asserting your rights as an American is automatically proof of guilt. Persecuting and terrorizing innocent people was EXACTLY one of McCarthy's biggest sins. I'm sure there's any number of books out there that tell us how unfairly Hitler and Stalin were maligned, too. Markle | ||||
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I'm saying that "you have nothing to complain about if you don't have anything to hide" is a sleazy argument that has been used before in the ways that I mentioned. We have rights in America. The line that you quoted was my representation of the attitude of those who say that if you stand up for your rights it must mean that you have something to hide. The framers of our Constitution were VERY sophisticated guys, and they were far too aware of abuses of power to believe that. That's why the Bill of Rights says what it does. Markle | ||||
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