From the Course Resources (see thread)

1. Section on Thinking and Feeling from Chapter 1, Tracking the Elusive Human.

2. "The Judging Functions" section of Chapter 7, Living Together, Loving Together.

3. Slides 6 and 8 of the online slideshow (good summary).

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Just a few points to note.

A. Where the two Perceiving functions, Sensation and iNtuition, pertain to what kind of information we pay more attention to--sensory vs. imaginative, respectively--Judging has to do with the evaluations we make about this information. Jung recognized two kinds of evaluations, both of which he considered rational: Thinking and Feeling.

B. T evaluates by attending to the logical implications and consequences likely to follow in the wake of any decisions made. Principles of truth and justice seem to be most inspiring to them, as does an "objective" and dispassionate approach.

C. F evaluates by attending to the emotional and relational implications of decisions. F knows what's "good" in terms of harmony and respect. The decision-making process for an F type is personal and warm.

D. An overwhelming majority of men are T types, and most women are F types. This is where most of the "Mars and Venus" business about men and women seems to come from.

E. As noted about E and I, N and S, there are no great advantages to being one or the other, although one could probably make the case for an advantage to F types in Western culture (since the T function will be developed somewhat through math and science classes).

F. Also as noted re. N and S, it's possible that in some people, T and F are more or less equally developed. This would be the case if they were the second and third preferred functions -- more on this later . . .

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Returning again to this site for a fun summary. I'd never heard T and F contrasted as "Logical" vs. "Ethical" but I think that works. Do remember that these are both "rational" approaches, however.

quote:

LOGICAL: his face is contemplative; emotions are contrasting; his interests are related to objective reality. Eyebrows are lower compared to the Ethical types and approach eyes. Look is somewhat dull, "without a glimmer". Sensing Logicians, though, may have a fixed and attentive look, but anyway it remains unlively and cold. Dynamics of emotions are vaguely reflected on the face, but can manifest in voice modulations. Very often Logic types make impression of being unflappable. They pay attention to facts and possess great erudition. Often they allow themselves unethical remarks, because “they do not want to hide the truth”. Their speech, compared to the Ethical types, is more strict, “dry” and logically relevant. They easily operate long complex or compound sentences. Their speech often includes foreign words or special terminology.

ETHICAL: their faces are changeable, depending on their mood, exhibiting a spectrum of feelings and shades of emotions. Their interest lies in people and their relationships; their own mood is depended on the mood of others. They are touchy. They often have a smile on their faces. Eyebrows are often raised over their eyes, and even bent upwards. The speech of an Ethical type seems to a Logician to be fragmentary, as if built on hints. However, the "hints" of the Ethical types can be distinguished from the associations often used by Intuitive Logicians by lacking the “second associative layer", their seeming incompletion is perceived by the Ethical type himself as total completion: he marked up an object with a certain emotionally colored word and thus gave it complete characteristics – why can't you understand then what I meant?

Speaking of somebody, an Ethical type makes estimations: “good”, “bad”; by contrast, a Logical type prefers to avoid personal estimations and instead of this to express only facts.

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Reflection/Discussion

1. Do you use Thinking or Feeling more when making decisions?

2. What consequences have you noted from ignoring the considerations of the opposite function, here?

3. How do you get along with people who are your opposites, here?

4. Anything else you want to share about your experience as a T or F type?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Phil,

I use F in making my decisions. Listening and not showing where I stand is always a challenge--never could bluff in poker. My face has gotten me in trouble more than on one occassion. In fact, a speaker once pointed me out in the crowd and said I had a "barometer face".

I have lived with a logical person and even mirrored back to him the "logical" image. He prefers the ethical image. We managed to make our marriage last 25 years before it ended. Now we are working on a friendship and it is difficult.

It should be noted that T types experience feelings and F types are capable of logical thinking. What T and F are about is how we judge, or evaluate.

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A few years ago, our oldest daughter broke up with her boyfriend and was grieving her loss. It saddened me to see her in such gloom, so I (a T type) decided to cheer her up by reassuring her that she was attactive, young, and there would be plenty of other opportunities -- some much better, I'm sure.

Now all you F types tell me what I did wrong.

Fortunately, my daughter was able to see my concern and look past the disconnect.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain:
It should be noted that T types experience feelings and F types are capable of logical thinking. What T and F are about is how we judge, or evaluate.

- - -

A few years ago, our oldest daughter broke up with her boyfriend and was grieving her loss. It saddened me to see her in such gloom, so I (a T type) decided to cheer her up by reassuring her that she was attactive, young, and there would be plenty of other opportunities -- some much better, I'm sure.

Now all you F types tell me what I did wrong.

Fortunately, my daughter was able to see my concern and look past the disconnect.

Please, F types, tell Phil what he did wrong, so I can avoid a similar mistake, which I have already committed many times

pax,
jb

I think my feeling and thinking functions are both strong, but perhaps feeling is a tiny bit stronger. I try to be gentle and considerate with people and to not rip into them, even when I think they've done something wrong (unless it's my daughter!!!). But I don't have any problem holding to the rules and policies in my work, even when the customers don't like it. I think my judging functions are a lot more in balance than my perceiving functions, where the sensing is way stronger than the perceiving. BTW, shouldn't this topic be called the judging functions, T and F, instead of S and N?

quote:

Originally posted by JB:

quote:

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain:
It should be noted that T types experience feelings and F types are capable of logical thinking. What T and F are about is how we judge, or evaluate.

- - -

A few years ago, our oldest daughter broke up with her boyfriend and was grieving her loss. It saddened me to see her in such gloom, so I (a T type) decided to cheer her up by reassuring her that she was attactive, young, and there would be plenty of other opportunities -- some much better, I'm sure.

Now all you F types tell me what I did wrong.

Fortunately, my daughter was able to see my concern and look past the disconnect.

Please, F types, tell Phil what he did wrong, so I can avoid a similar mistake, which I have already committed many times

pax,
jb

I am an ENFJ. My feelings are out there for everyone to see. don't try to "fix" me. I need to feel my feelings and have them honored. It is not "bad" to feel sad, sometimes it is our discomfort with others feelings that sends the message feelings are bad. I am going through a difficult time right now and my feelings are out there. I have a dear friend who is in such pain to see me sad and she wants to 'fix' it for me. I have to live through these and will but in my own time. BTW, I don't think Phil did anything "wrong" the timing was off.

Well, I think I should have just gone "awww," with the appropriate tone and frowny face. It would have really been more helpful to empathize emotionally before providing a logical perspective to her situation.

Not that I always remember to do this . . . still!

I agree with everyone on this. When we provide quick, cursory and facile solutions in an effort, however earnest, to dismiss a problem, we can end up dismissing a person, instead. By empathizing first and relaying, even nonverbally: Ouch! That MUST hurt, we are not so much validating a problem as we are validating a person. The same rule applies for those types of grief that ensue from the cessation of relationships, which sometimes comes, literally, from death, which always have the smell of death around them even when the other hasn't died but rather gone away or rjected us, which can be worse!

I think it was Carl Rogers who emphasized that genuineness, caring and understanding are often more important in therapy than the actual content of our counsel. Of course, whe it comes to emotions, we can help others discern whether their guilt, shame, grief is life-giving, life-enhancing (existential guilt, for instance) or life-detracting (neurotic guilt), but that discernment must be communicated in gcu's (genuineness, caring and concern), where the spoonful of sugar, sometimes, IS all the medicine required.

Jesus didn't come and answer all of the world's theodicy questions; His response was not an intellectual answer but a Loving, Healing Presence.

pax, amor et bonum
jb

See Stop! Drop! Roll!, if you're a thinking type; the Feelers already do this reflexively

I use Feeling more when making decisions. This can really get in the way when I must confront someone about an issue. I will go over in my head twenty times the conversation I intend to have...carefully choosing my words and tone so as to not jeapordize the relationship. There are times I can say what needs to be said regardless of how the other might react, but it is very difficult for me to do that.

Self awareness is important, but so is knowing the T or F preference of others. If I know someone is a T, I might be able to handle their sometimes abrupt manner of speaking. If I don't know that the other person is a T, then I might take their comments quite personally whether it was intended that way or not.