Since that thread is about the "nap" of kundalini, at least, ideally , I'd like to tell you about something that is just about that, and I wonder what you think about that (and Phil and Alariel - you may of course continue your dialogue...)

I had a kundalini awakening right at the beginning of my spiritual journey, when I was practising mantra meditation for two hours a day. I wasn't Christian yet. After few months I had my first crisis, which was basically about that I couldn't be "good" anymore (I was very naive and basically had no knowledge about spirituality back then). For months being good and charitable was easy, but at a certain point I found out that my "bad" part didn't disappear, just went on holidays, and then he came back. You know what I mean, of course.

So it was I guess the most unpleasant about that crisis, but other things were connected to kundalini itself. I started to experience in meditation electrical shocks in my spine, and other disturbing phenomena instead of pleasant flow of energy I used to feel at the beginning.

I tried to deal with that, but many parts of my life became difficult for me and the fact that my meditation wasn't blissful anymore, was really hard to bear. I tried to get some help with that kundalini shocks and stuff, but the only person who I had contact with and who was in a powerful kundalini process, too, couldn't help me, even though I think this person was really willing to. After all, I felt confused and without any help.

So I decided that I will "stop" the process. First I stopped meditation for few days (you might laugh, but for me missing my hours of sitting was the first deadly sin, back then), then I started to sing mantras instead of meditating quietly. I tired all sorts of things. And I noticed that when I sit with my eyes opened and without any concentration, just looking into my mind, the energy was somehow easier to bear.
And this is how I found Zen practice. When I learnt that what I did was basically some kind of Zen shikantaza, I went to a retreat.

What is interesting, it seems like Zen really "stopped" kundalini in a way. Of course, not entirely, I still felt energy flowing and some phenomena occurred, but I ignored it all as makyo with such devotion of a new Zen-practitioner, that I guess by ignoring it kundalini sort of withdrew. At least, I didn't experience any upleasant things.

When I read my diaries, I see that kundalini was working (pressures in the head etc.), but somehow I ignored it and pretended I'm going on without it. I wonder if it is really possible to affect the process in that way.
After my Zen kensho energy seemed to disappear totally, which is also kind of intriguing, and during an aridity period of no-self experience it was hardly noticeable.

Yet since this December, when I gave up Zen, finally chose Jesus and surrendered to infused contemplation, kundalini came back with great force.
So two things seem to be interesting here:
(1) Zen affects kundalini process
(2) contemplative or devotional prayer seems to be quite at home with kundalini (or it's just individual feature of a person)

Now, when I wrote this I start to wonder if my kundalini really took a nap, or it's just my sense of it, because I start to remember many K experiences during my Zen times... After all, if you have anything to comment on or you wanna share your experiences with such "on and off's" - I'd gladly hear them

Btw, I never experienced a negative effects from kundalini, when I chose to ignore it - usually, it's on the contrary, if you try to stop it, you suffer.

Dear phil!

The last days have been very energetically intense, with lots of energy in the head and lots of integration goin on.

My answer to your reply has two parts :-) :

1. It is so important to trust what we feel and not let the mind kick in. The more we trust what we feel the faster the surrender goes. I have no other way to "make something real for me" than what i feel. Feeling is the way to intuition, and through intuition we learn to read christs guidance. This feeling comes through the 2. Chakra which carries feminin energy. Christ teaches us that we need to trust our gut feelings instead of relying on the mind, in this way we learn the difference of deception and thruth (for us).
The mind can only grasp the surface, intuition the deeper parts of ourselves.

If we are to fully accept ourselves we need to accept what we feel (the first step to understanding unconditional love). There is nothing wrong with it! if we rely on thoughts for understanding we can think and think, and believe and think, and believe and ... (thinking never finds and end)
Before we reach certain integration with christ we try to figure things out trough a thougth process (which is maskulin energy; doing). But in christ we get information directly through our intuitiv senses and then "assimilate" that into the feeling body. What we feel as right for us will change, depending on what "level" of integration with christ we are.

The key to living in the world while embodying Christ is to honor the way we feel. If we feel uncomfortable in a situation, then something is not right. If we remain, without leaving or speaking up to change the energy, we are allowing the world to control us. This can be very subtle, because the outward appearance can seem harmless and we may be the only ones who are uncomfortable. It always comes down to following the way we feel. Christ within us will be our guide, energetically directing us, requiring us to become more sensitive and aware in order to move into greater Christ embodiment.

having said that, brings me to the second part of my answer:

The things i have felt (which i described in my former posts)... came not from me. When we reach a certain depth of integration with christ he builds a christ body which becomes slowly integrated into the etheric and physical bodies. This body operates (is that the word? ;-) on its own, idepentent of the mind and the human feelings. What begins as intuition (and trusting our gut feelings; 2. chakra) becomes a real way of perceiving things (one perceives the human level and the deeper level simultaniously)and this christ body clearly shows if there are energies that are not pure or if something is pure. Through it we can perceive the things behind the surface. Things can look pretty well on the surface, but the christ body shows that behind the surface things are quite different.
One can not perceive this things without the christ body. I have met people who completly surrendered to christ and they told me about that, but i could not really get it until i started to experience that for myself.

much love to you phil!

alariel

Thanks for the love, aleriel! Back atcha.

I agree with much of what you write above, but there are parts that, to me, are clearly "problemmatic." But, for sure, to accept oneself as a feeling person, to listen to one's feelings, to take them seriously, to learn from them, etc. - we are on the same page. Same with the importance of surrendering completely to Christ and the guidance we receive.

I'm not sure we'll get anywhere with our disagreements, however, as they're based not simply on experience, but on differing metaphysical assumptions, different Christologies, and different ecclesiologies. These all do come into play in our manner of experiencing and understanding how the Spirit works in our lives. E.g., intuition also feeds the intellect, which is our primary faculty for comprehending truth (not feeling). Feeling tells us if something is agreeable to us or not -- very important information -- but that's not the best way to get at the truth of a thing. Intuitive intelligence is not a matter of "thinking, thinking, thinking" (deductive reasoning) but an inner listening similar to intuitive feeling. The Spirit moves through all 7 chakras, not just the 2nd, and we can receive some manner of guidance through them all.

My sense is that you have a lot of valuable experience to share on this forum, and I don't want to frustrate you with argumentation. I'm interested in hearing more about your spiritual journey, especially who your teachers have been and what books you've found influential.

Peace, Phil

matt, thanks for sharing your experience of how Zen affected your experiences of energy. My own is somewhat the opposite -- that Zen meditation activated the energy and left it with little grounding. In fact, it was only after making an 8-day Zen retreat and then giving up on that kind of meditation afterwards, returning to Christian prayer, that I saw how kundalini was a process that facilitated full embodiment of contemplative union between God and self. Iow, it seems that kundalini integration is optimized by a relational mysticism of the sort that Christianity, Judaism, Islam and some branches of Hinduism facilitate.

It could be that the non-relational, non-dual emphasis of Zen stymied the k process (although those pressures in the head you mention sound very familiar). The energy simply has nowhere to go, as Zen doesn't seem especially interested in embodying spiritual consciousness. Maybe I'm judging Zen too harshly, here, but my experience of it and from the reading I've done, it's seemed to emphasize spiritual consciousness without much consideration of the body.

Just a few thoughts that might have relevance to what you shared.

Dear Alariel,

Welcome to Shalom Place.

I am guessing by your sharing that you have been influenced by the work of Solomae. I was once quite involved in her teachings and benefitted much from many of her insights. However, I came to realize there is much deception tangled up in that whole system of thought. Most notably is the issue of diserning energies and how one's "Christ Body" is reacting as a way to determine truth.

Like you and the others here at SP, I am quite energy sensitive and often 'see/feel' into the spiritual/supernatural world. So I can relate to your conviction that you believe you can see who belongs to Christ, that Jesus told you to give up religion, etc.

In my experience, however, I learned that the problem with relying on this kind of feeling-with-your-"Christ Body"-knowledge and not needing anyone or anything to confirm or support your revelations is really foolhearty. It can lead to a complex delusional system. Sure, one cannot learn anything about kundalini from somebody who believes it's from the devil, but they may still be able to teach you a whole lot about one's areas of immaturity. One's 'level of integration' in Christ or the sanctification process seems to more complex than whether or not they have had your same experiences (the recent sharing my Matt on the other thread supports this).

After all, we are fallen creatures subject to our own wishes, fears, and fantasies. In addition, there are supernatural forces outside ourselves who FEEL loving (a kind of supernatural love that insulates us with grandiosity) and present themselves as Jesus. There have been many appearances of Jesus to a whole bunch of super-energy sensitive folks who have "gone off the deep end," in my opinion. Some of these people enjoy ecstatic states infused with love for all mankind, gushing heart chakra openings, etc. and still lack some basic understanding, intelligence, and wisdom.

The good news, as you state, is that a continual surrender to Christ will bring about more and more purification, and with it, clarity about what we do know and what we don't understand. At the same time, we cannot ever be perfect barometers of what the Holy Spirit is doing (as w.c. mentions above), no matter how energy-sensitive and surrendered we are at any given moment.

peace to you,
Shasha

I agree with all you wrote, Shasha.And although I haven't noticed poetry on SP, I'd like to share this poem by Symeon the Theologian (949-1022), translated by Stephen Mitchell.One of my contemplative prayer groups often starts with this, and it reminds me of the areas where I do agree with Alariel.You guys probably know it, it gives me pleasure to type it out, though.

We awaken in Christ's body
as Christ awakens our bodies.
And my poor hand is Christ, He enters
my foot, and is infinitely me.
I move my hand, and wonderfully
my hand becomes Christ, becomes all of Him
(for our God is indivisibly
whole, seamless in His Godhood).
I move my foot, and at once
He appears like a flash of lightening.
Do my words seem blasphemous?Then
open your heart to Him,
and let yourself receive the One
who is opening to you so deeply.
For if we genuinely love Him,
we wake up inside Christ's body
where all our body, all over,
every most hidden part of it,
is realized in joy in Him,
and He makes us utterly real,
and everything that is hurt,everything
that seemed to us dark,harsh,shameful,
maimed,ugly,irreparably
damaged, is in Him transformed
and recognized as whole, as lovely,
and radiant in His Light,
we awaken as the Beloved
in every last part of our body.

bdb:

That's lovely. The trouble for me is how that may be, in a saint, a genuinely grounded state of being; whereas in somebody, more like myself, often looking for an experience to ease psychological pain, a kind of spiritualized form of dissociation.

And so I'm left wondering as to the relationship between these deep mystical experiences and everyday virtue. There are so many stories of how people discover, with great embarrassment and sorrow, the shallowness of their moral development right after a long retreat or cloister where the heavenly realms have opened up to them.

I'm not married, but boy . . . marriage would be the litmus test for all of this, or at least a close community where folks know your sh. . . stinks just like theirs! I'd imagine Jesus' disciples, who seemed increasingly uncomfortable with themselves the more they were around Him, wouldn't have given much importance to anything that didn't place genuine virture/maturity at the top of the list; for anything else gets seen through as a sham. And it doesn't take God in the flesh to notice when the false self has rediscovered itself via kundalini-driven addictive "spirituality." I'm guilty as charged, and at least somewhat relieved to know it.

Yes, yes, different for all of us,but our sensitivity which makes us more susceptible to the HS,imo, also subjects me to toxic shame (I had quite a bout over my post to Arariel, still not sure, add excruciating self-doubt to the mix) and hypervigilantism, which don't help me see myself well, my patterns of behaviour, but get used by the FS to create more obstructionism (is that a word?) I love what Shasha wrote, which I remember loosely as to just keep surrendering and staying open with whatever practice we have.What monk said,we rise up,we fall down,we rise up...and also,I have to remember Julian of Norwich's all will be well,and all manner of thing will be well.I am married and live in an intentional community, and I assure you, I can deflect the truth of my behaviour pretty darn well.And still, my life since I became a Christian just gets better,less anxious,less driven...more moments of gratitude,and self-offering and wonder.

Yes, lovely poem, bdb. And thanks for the reflection on it, w.c. Marriage is indeed an ongoing test of one's spirituality -- and a joy when both partners are committed to loving one another.

Here's the nuance I'd make about Christ's body and ours. It's great good news that we become grafted into his Body, which becomes, then, the source of our new life in the Spirit. The theotic process, however, is much more about how His life become ours, along the lines Paul talks about in Rm. 12: 1-3.

quote:

1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God�this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is�his good, pleasing and perfect will.

So we do not look to another mind to discover God's will, but we find the answers in our own transformed minds. We've been "re-wired," as it were, but in such manner that our native faculties and subjective essence remain intact. I think that's what St. Symeon is talking about -- how his body has been renewed to such an extent that it has become a "cell" in the mystical body of Christ.

An intentional community is probably what I need.

What occurs to me as I read your post is how childhood attachment impairment can lead to such shame. Not sure of your background bdb, and this thread probably isn't the place for it, but in watching my friends parent their kids, it is astonishing how shame replaces wounds that cannot be openings to further being known and understood in the midst of loss. The poorly attached child is alone with a sense of basic disconnection, plus whatever the recent pain happens to be, and blames herself for all of this as she hasn't had the kind of enduring connections to emerge from her infantile narcissism (I don't think infants and toddlers are narcissistic in the way adults can be, but it is a partially informed expression of having to let go of entitlement that is appropriate for the first 10 months of life). To emerge from that and not have shame be the primary emotional response, we need to have the empathetic responses that abide our grief at losing childhood entitlements, which is a painful grieving process for every kid. To become a real self, this grieving must happen. So feeling understood, having boundaries gently and firmly put in place by the parent so the child's energy cannot manipulate others, sets the stage for letting go into increasing self-other intimacy. I see my friends kids actually emerge as more whole human beings as they have these moments. They are so blessed, as I know the pain they would be left with otherwise.

Sorry for the tangent, but I think it may bear upon the thread in some ways.

I first got in touch with my grief-stricken little girl (my brother died when I as 8) once I had established regular times of centering prayer.The insight didn't come during prayer, it came in a series of shattering dreams.So,I don't have any answers,I just think that you may have "kundalini-driven addictive spirituality", but you also have the real deal, too,w.c.

Sorry,need to finish the thought.I was "shattered",but had no trouble being an adult in the world, and 48 hours later, I had a sort of daydream as I drove for about 45 minutes,in which the grief was resolved into understanding and love.The prayer unearthed the pain, and then gave me a way through it.

bdb:

It seems we need all sorts of relationships to activate and heal various parts of the unformed true self, especially as these parts are mired in false self compensations. And that goes back to the importance of community, as Phil has emphasized so much. I'm short on "community," where I attend Mass, enjoy my coworkers and friends, but live mostly in solitude. This is protective, and so I do need more exposure and contact. As for the thread topic, I'd say kundalini is about as creaturely/non-supernatural as any instinct it governs, or embodies; it also embodies or enshrines our souls, but as a creature is prone to subtle distortion due to fallenness, or the nature of the "flesh." So for those of us with the poorly formed self sense from childhood, it must awaken, but is completely insufficient left to itself, i,e, without formative relationships.

Last night, or early this morning, I dreamnt I was being pursued by the most loving mother. I was a little kid, maybe 3 or 4, and was running around inside a house, trying to elude her. The whole dream was this very painful energy of needing to be pursued and known, and dread of being known, as my own mother would never come looking for me when I ran away from home, repeatedly early on. And that sad affair was itself merely symbolic of her self-absorbed cruel personality refusing to relent even to the most powerful mothering responses. So in the dream, this woman is gently relentless in seeking me out. I hide, she plays along, but is playfully conveying this constant sensual delight that I am hers and there's no love to be lost from her pov, regardless of how frightened I am of being known, or how much I test her with rage and mistrust. Her voice reminds me now of what the 4 year old boy said:

"When someone loves you, the way they say your name is different. You just know that your name is safe in their mouths."

And so my name is being sung by this Divine Mother, and her pursuit is full of the same quality, melting away resistance like no therapist could ever procure. It is a colorful, luminescent dream, with pastels melting around walls and water gently splashed at my feet as she softly rounds a corner letting me just disappear before being fully seen. The dream ends as I turn toward her, still unseen, and cry out "Mommy!" full of grief and hope. The effect lingers and is really delightful and raw. To say that word, from deep inside the worst of pain, is nearly impossible and absolutely necessary. I have the sense that no soul will be lost who can utter such a word, as God is this and more to any of His creatures. So God couldn't have picked a better way to haunt me. And, it may be my recently deceased mother attempting to give me what was missing; she's already appeared twice. For that I'm still not fully on board, as I'm reluctant to deal with her again on either side of the veil. But if it's her, I'd rather her do this than not.

I'm having really hard time those days, so I can't write much...
But it's good to know that you are here on SP.

W.C., I just love some of your stories - I like your intellectual side, but the most I love it when you write about your visions, dreams, experiences... this is so pure and beautiful. Have you written any books? You definitely should, man! When your spiritual autobiography is published, I'll be first to order in on the Amazon.com...

since Monday dreadful aridity came along with kundalini induced pain in the 5th and 7th chakra. Sometimes I wonder how I even manage to do my job and other stuff.

Thank you again, W.C., for your short remark on the sense of abandonment that accompanies aridity. I really can see into and through it now. Maybe I'm beginning to accept, to surrender, for the first time?
Alariel, thanks for your "surrender post" - it also came inspiring.
Shasha, nice to read you again

I see that the subject of community appeared. Interestingly, I gave it a lot of thought those days being in the desert. Maybe we can share a bit about it.
I suddenly realize that I'm invited to look for Jesus in relationships while He seems to be gone from my heart (again, he only FEELS to be gone, I know by faith He's VERY MUCH THERE). And I happened, by grace, to find Him in others and among others, while in this all dry, suffocating pain...
Ok, my head's hurting, I gotta go...

Thank you for your encouragement, Matt. No, nothing published at this point. SP has given me many years to exchange with bright minds and souls more mature than myself. It has been a staple now for about seven years. The time has passed almost quickly. As I exchange with folks like yourself, and do the hospice work, and attend Mass and pray daily, there is an ever growing urgency to give Him all, and an accompanying grief for not doing so, even as I know the full surrender would be His own doing. So as you guys open to Him more and more, I feel drawn more and more as well. In the end, it seems that the heights and depths of grace, when we are purified enough to embody them as virtures in simplicity and utter realness of character, will have as their purpose our delight in the happiness of others for their own sake. So whoever consents to the Dark Night of the Spirit most fully will be there serving the rest of us so we are less afraid. "The first shall be last, and the last, first." Like holding open the door until all are through. Blessed be the dooorman, whoever that might be.