For me, the Grof book is such a joke in the context that Grof himself held seminars practicing crazy breathing exercises - take off on yogic breathing - in the 1970s that actually led to some participants having imbalanced kundalini awakenings, and other psychotic episodes. THis was during all the personal awareness technique experimentation, particularly in San Fran, (right up there with EST, etc. and not far from dropping acid) where I guess he was based. As far as I'm concerned, he's one of the bad guys in leading people down a lousey path towards transformation.

He also speaks all over the place, I've heard him and find him uninspiring spiritually, though loaded with all kinds of information, and philosphical approaches and incredibly self impressed in a low key, aren't I humble, sort of inauthentic way! (Am I being harsh enough?)

But he owed the world the "Spiritual Emergency," book, in my opinion, to make up for the fact he didn't know what he was doing. I read it long before I had a kundalini awakening and found it helpful in terms of putting what was happening to some people in a framework, particularly for the floundering social science community, but I wouldn't recommend it as any great insight into a kundalini imbalance. (unless some new edition has updates)

And addressing kundalini imbalances holistically is the only way to go, clearly, for most of us. But since none of this is my field of expertise in terms of the social sciences, language and study, I've only had TO LIVE through it, let me offer a practical explanation: combining so many forms of treatement is both time consuming and expensive, which is why most people must narrow it down to one or two at a time at the most. "Terating" my kundalini impairment has certainly drained my bank account, since a lot of the alternative treatments aren't covered by insurance, and unlike someone like Phil, I have been forced to alter my professional life as a result and basically cut back. And unless one indeed wants to live in India, for example, an ashram experience, full time, is a bit out of the question. (I suppose there are a couple here one could join, but what an alternative.)

Linda wrote, re: Grof's book: I read it long before I had a kundalini awakening and found it helpful in terms of putting what was happening to some people in a framework

Linda, that sounds like a good characterization. I purchased it years ago and read it (and lost it somehow) and I don't remember any particulars but my lingering impression has been that they contributed the notion (and I'll say this very generically) that sometimes there is something else going on with a client or patient, as an underlying cause of various symptoms, and that something else is, distinctly, a spiritually transformative experience or emergence.

Your sharing of your practical experience is generous and valuable. There are so many folks not receiving the full spectrum of available therapies, for manifold reasons, leaving their choices severely narrowed. This is true for people suffering severe trauma, deep grief, etc and would seem to call for some type of triage or prioritizing, maybe what SJ Thaikattil was calling "preparing the ground". I'm not sure how to properly frame up that issue, though. Maybe y'all have some ideas here, too? Maybe this is a tad difficult because it is hard to generalize about a phenomenon that is relatively rare and poorly studied in our western therapies?

I think this thread continues to hold considerable promise for at least framing up the questions that are going to have to be dealt with as these experiences become more widespread in the future, in the West. I've seen value in all of the perspectives, personally. We had some real doozies, in the way of threads, over the years, regarding East-West stuff - see these old Shalomplace Boards http://shalomplace.com/place/wwwboard4/wwwboard.html for a little fun While some come here looking for companioning and help and answers, others contribute much by helping to properly frame the many questions, most of which remain unasked, at this early stage of this Science of Love (as William Johnston, SJ terms it). Let's keep going, everybody!

Above all, Peace
jb

SJ Thaikattil wrote: I wonder what Phil/you mean by holistic spirituality and if Jung's psychoanalysis may be the science suited to the Kundalini impaired since Jung deals with all sorts of stuff from the unconscious, so that the Kundalini impaired may safely give scientific names to the energies they encounter from the fourth dimension. Doesn't Paul refer to the evil aspect of that dimension as the principalities and powers, with the heirarchy of angels representing the good spirits?

I don't speak for Phil but I get real excited speaking for myself about holistic spirituality Personally, I take my catholicity to an extreme both/and-ish middle ground, radically panentheistically. I see great value in a Thomist philosophy and metaphysics (and even some Aristotelean notions of causality) in approaching epistemology pluralistically, with critical realism, with an analogical imagination, etc I value Bohm, Sheldrake, Wilber, Richard Rohr , incarnational/ holistic-creation spirituality, inclusivistic approaches, treating the whole person ... I'll stop ... in response to the demands of charity and so as not to take this thread too far astray. Hence, I can see Merton's distinction between approaches that are primarily immanent, existential, apophatic and impersonal versus those that are primarily transcendent, theological, kataphatic and personal --- and see many grades in between. I don't endorse a facile syncretism or false irenicism but do endorse Jim Arraj's Two Fundamental Principles of East-West Dialogue and the Dialogue Decalogue that Len Swidler devised in his Global Ethic work with Hans Kung (whom I love, licentiate or not). Thus, Re: Paul's Quote, I'm no exegete or Scripture scholar but I do make a distinction between energies that are personal (spiritual beings) and those that are impersonal (say like, electricity, for instance, though I can think of others <wink>. Some energies which syncretists label the Holy Spirit, I believe, are anything but. I wouldn't, however, then label those energies, bad/evil spirits or principalities, either. Some are just subtle energies. Others are whatever. I tend to view the 4th Dimension or maybe the 5th Dimension as a Tacit Dimension involving nonenergetic causation and maybe a realm of formal and final causation. There may be some-non-thing that is aspatial, nontemporal, immaterial and nonenergetic, which is inhabited by Whomever, outside of space-time-matter-energy --- but heck if I know (ontologically undecided as I am). I mostly resonate with those Thomist approaches that Jim Arraj has framed up and with Jack Haught's cosmology, but can't articulate them back to anyone with the greatest understanding, fidelity or clarity (sorry). [I'll be glad when Phil returns ]

pax tibi,
jb

JB

I have been in the meantime going through the websites you recommended, very valuable indeed. Thank you! Getting the books though will take a while yet, since buying new books is not on my top priority list at the moment. I'll see what I can read on the Internet though.

re: Getting the books though will take a while yet, since buying new books is not on my top priority list at the moment.

Do take counsel, from Linda and others, on that Grof book. It is just too long ago in my memory. But it may have value as a good example of a bad example. I dunno. Anyone else come across Spritual Emergencies and wish to comment?

The other book __Fires of Desire__ was very different from most other literature I've come across but I found many personal tangents (and felt less alone with certain experiences).

Arraj, as you can tell, is very depthful !

pax tibi,
jb

re: I recommended holistic healing as a vital first step to handling even spiritual emergencies only because I'm of the opinion that if the body-emotions-thought patterns-spiritual fundament has not been 'cleared' first, all higher spiritual insights tends to get distorted by those sick areas, like water running into a gutter.

This brings to mind the additional problem of diagnosis, whether self-diagnosis or by professionals (trained or untrained, experienced or inexperienced, etc). It is problematical under the best of circumstances.

Also, Arraj raises some important questions, somewhat using John of the Cross in a normative way for discerning infused contemplation from other "activities", in prayer, meditation, psyche. If he is correct about his Jungian view of maintaining balance with psychic energies, then there is a legitimate concern regarding anyone's "unloading of the unconscious" and the suggestion that people should not be indiscriminately taking up various meditative practices and thereby unwittingly unleashing kundalini-type symptoms. Arraj specifically asks whether we should make a clear distinction between the goals of psychological work and of spiritual work, however "integrated" or holistic in our approaches. Keating and Pennington raise some good points and counterpoints regarding these issues, too.

re: The glaring ingnorance that we are all prey to is the fact that we tend to forget that those who went in search of mystical union with God devoted their whole lives to it, cut themselves off from the distractions of the world and spent several years living an extremely ascetic lifestyle and waited patiently for God to manifest Himself. But we expect God to do our bidding instantly, we want Him to behave like our trained dog after a crash course on meditation and we want mystical union with God while living very much in the world and without giving up any of the sensual pleasures. But sometimes He does answer our prayers and comes instantly at our bidding, leaving us crushed and exposing everything ungodly in us.

Good points. I am reminded of Teresa of Avila's suggestion: Let us desire and occupy ourselves in prayer not so much to gain consolations but so as to gain the strength to serve. There are so many cautionary notes, which can be sounded, regarding chasing after experiences. Sometimes, it seems that in reading John of the Cross or Ignatius that they are too severe in admonishing us to let go of experiences that come in prayer, whether ecstasies or sensory delights or other consolations and phenomena, but I think John of the Cross is calling us to purified sensory delight, to properly ordered appetites even in spiritual matters. Likewise, St. Ignatius set up good rules for discernment of spirits and called for ordinate attachments. There is the question of whether certain movements within arise from the world, the self, the devil, the occult, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, subtle energies, etc and anyone who doesn't have the requisite time or resources to obtain the types of direction, counseling, discernment, community support, etc might well consider staying clear and letting go of certain practices?

Thanks, SJ for your comments. They were on the mark, I believe.

pax,
jb

p.s. In the give and take, here, none of my musings are put forth in an over-against dialectic with others' observations. Also, while our discussions are going to be generally dispositive of and will touch upon some people's particular experiences, nothing is likely ever going to be fully exhaustive of any given person's experience. Thus, it is in the teasing out of the nuances and the fleshing out of the differences that our knowledge will advance. With this dynamism acknowledged up front, hopefully we can continue to gather divergent perspectives in a nonthreatening way. The personal sharing remains most generous; I know, because I like to pretty much stay in the safe zone of sharing ideas! Kudos and thanks.

JB

Following your train of thought about specialised counselling and your observation (shared by many spiritual teachers) that we usually preach or teach what we need to learn most (even some counsellors, psychotherapists and analysts who are honest with themselves admit that they usually specialise in their as yet unresolved problems in the hopes of working out a solution by listening and talking to patients with similar problems : Refer ‘ Mount Misery by Samuel Shem), I put together a list of books(not repeating some of the titles already mentioned elsewhere) for me to read based on some of the suggestions on these forums as well. Ask me in about 50 years to comment on my experience after reading them, as it is going to take me quite a while to get hold of those books in the first place, leave alone read them all and integrating them make take several lifetimes. (I don’t believe in reincarnation, so I suppose what I don’t integrate in this life time will remain unintegrated for ever and ever. I don’t worry about it though because I’m going to hide my pathetic self under the cloak of Christ.) I’ll share my ‘ secret ’ list in the hope that some of you may be able to get some ideas as well and probably will get to read some of the books much sooner than me.

JB you summed up everything perfectly when you wrote:

There is the question of whether certain movements within arise from the world, the self, the devil, the occult, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, subtle energies, etc and anyone who doesn't have the requisite time or resources to obtain the types of direction, counseling, discernment, community support, etc might well consider staying clear and letting go of certain practices?

I have nothing more to add to that. I went off tangent in my last post because I had been going through the websites looking for titles of books to put together to read to gain more insight into the serious topic we are discussing.

I must apologise if I gave the impression based on the satirical novel by Samuel Shem (who came to the far-fetched conclusion that only self-help groups can bring about any real transformation in a person) that there are no good counsellors, psychologists, psychiatrists and gurus. There are truly great ones (many have been already listed in many of the forums) who teach and preach out of pure compassion - some who have reached high levels of enlightenment, some well on their way, some still struggling... We learn from all.

Thank you for sharing your valuable insights JB in response to my observations and queries.

As to sharing my 'secret list', I thought that since I worked it out following the suggestions on the forums, it would be better for each one to make their own list.

I've enjoyed reading through this thread while traveling from Madison, WI back to Wichita (I receive the posts as emails and downloaded before leaving the hotel). What I'm moved to say is that that, in my experience, the kundalini process has been part of the cleansing and purification. This process absolutely demands as purified subtle body--including the emotiona/astral layer--and will work on making sure that happens. Where things are "stuck," there are the kinds of distortions that SJ mentioned. "Blowing them out" using Grof's holotripic breathing might be helpful to some, but, as Linda noted, there have been bum experiences coming from this as well.

Traditionally, Christian spirituality has emphasized getting one's act together morally and relationally as foundational aspects of the contemplative/mystical life. One was also to develop a conceptual framework to stabilize the mind and open it to transcendantal possibilities through mystical theology and spiritual reading. When the soils were ready, contemplative graces could be noted, and one could give consent. It would have been unheard of for spiritual directors to nudge people toward contemplative practices without first laying the proper foundation.

I'm somewhat concerned about the many today who seem to want to skip over all this and become "enlightened" or "mystics" by taking up contemplative practices before they're ready. Generally, there's no harm done, for nothing significant seems to happen for them so they give it up and go back to whatever they were doing before. Some, however, succeed in blowing open some of the chakras and "valves" in the subtle body, releasing high vibrational energies (not necesarily the divine) into the lower levels, causing much commotion in the etheric and emotional levels, not to mention distorted thought patterns which reinforce all this. For such, yes, absolutely, holistic healing practices are called for. In fact, I'm sure that even those mystics who come in through the "front door" when it opens of itself could use a little of that as well.

Good discussion, and good web links recommended. Thanks to all who are participating.

Phil

In the Christian tradition, Satan - represented as a snake in the garden of Eden; Satan who was permitted by God to test Job; and probably came to Jesus in the form of a desert snake - is called the tempter and purifier. The renounced psychiatrist, M Scott Peck , in his book ' The People of the Lie' who tried to develop a psychology of evil, calls evil the purifier too. The coming of the Holy Spirit was marked by great miracles, miracles of healing and wholeness and not by imbalances and illnessness.

How does such a view differ from the concept of purification in Kundalini? Kundalini imbalance is supposedly caused, as some try to explain it, when the 'coiled snake' enters the wrong energy passage - 'like an asparagus being pushed through the nasal passage instead of the mouth and causing damage to the nasal passages and getting stuck in the wind-pipe instead of going down the food-pipe' to use a poor example to explain the concept.

Kundalini Yoga has been closely associated with Tantric Yoga. Why? What are your opinions about it, particulary in the Christian context?

CORRECTION:

The RENOWNED psychiatrist, M Scott Peck, in his book: ' The People of the Lie, tried to develop a psychology of evil. He calls evil the purifier too. The coming of the Holy Spirit was marked by great miracles, miracles of healing and wholeness and not by imbalances and illnesses .

The central energy channel is called 'Susumna Nadi'.

Kundalini and Raja Yoga

Raja Yoga mentions nothing about this Kundalini, but propounds a still subtle, higher path, philosophical and rational, and asks the aspirant to control the mind, to withdraw all the senses and to plunge in meditation. Unlike Hatha Yoga which is mechanical and mystical, Raja Yoga teaches a technique with eight limbs, appealing to the heart and intellect of aspirants. It advocates moral and ethical development through its Yama and Niyama, helps the intellectual and cultural development through Svadhyaya or study of holy Scriptures, satisfies the emotional and devotional aspect of human nature by enjoining to surrender oneself to the will of the Creator, has an element of mysticism by including Pranayama also as one of the eight limbs and finally, prepares the aspirant for unbroken meditation on the Absolute through a penultimate step of concentration. Neither in philosophy nor in its prescription of methods of Raja Yoga mentions about Kundalini, but sets the human mind and Chitta as its targets to be destroyed as they alone make the individual soul to forget its real nature and brings on it birth and death and all the woes of phenomenal existence.

Kundalini and Vedanta

But when we come to Vedanta, there is no question about Kundalini or any type of mystical and mechanical methods. It is all enquiry and philosophical speculation. According to Vedanta the only thing to be destroyed is ignorance about one’s real nature, and this ignorance cannot be destroyed either by study, or by Pranayama, or by work, or by any amount of physical twisting and torturing, but only by knowing one’s real nature, which is Sat-Chit-Ananda or Existence-Knowledge-Bliss. Man is divine, free and one with the Supreme Spirit always, which he forgets and identifies himself with matter, which itself is an illusory appearance and a superimposition on the spirit. Liberation is freedom from ignorance and the aspirant is advised to constantly dissociate himself from all limitations and identify himself with the all-pervading, non-dual, blissful, peaceful, homogeneous spirit or Brahman. When meditation becomes intensified, in the ocean of Existence or rather the individuality is blotted or blown out completely. Just as a drop of water let on a frying pan is immediately sucked and vanishes from cognition, the individual consciousness is sucked in by the Universal Consciousness and is absorbed in it. According to Vedanta there cannot be real liberation in a state of multiplicity, and the state of complete Oneness is the goal to be aspired for, towards which alone the entire creation is slowly moving on.

KUNDALINI
(from the book 'Taming the Kundalini' by Swami Satyananda Saraswati (of Deoghar)

Kundalini (Serpent Power)

It is asleep. It is silent. It has encoiled itself. Its 'bedroom' is called Muladhara Cakra. This center is triangular in shape. Its aspect is gross. Its element is Prithivi (earth) Tattva. Tamoguna is its covering. It lies encoiling itself. It is called Kundalini. In Sahasrara Cakra it joins with Shiva. The power then manifests itself. It is like a hidden fire which can only be kindled by the force of spiritual power.
As the inner mind becomes concentrated and one-pointed, the power begins to awaken itself. As long as the inner mind remains gross or externalized, it sleeps.
It can be awakened by soul force or by will. But this is not the only means. It may be regarded as one of the methods.
It can be awakened by Hatha Yoga, but neither is that the only method. You can call it one form of scientific method.
It can also be awakened by practicing Samyama on the centers and realizing in experience their colour, elements, nature, Guna and the Bija. Nor is this the only method; you may just call it a good method.

To awaken the Kundalini

For purifying the nervous system, practice Hatha Yoga, take moderate food and avoid excitements.
For purifying the Prana, Pranayama and cleaning of Vasana-s will be practiced.
For purity of inner being, practice Yama-s and Niyama-s.
For purity of Samskara-s, dispassion and a detached attitude of a witness will have to be cultivated.
For purity of desires, Vairagya will have to be developed.
Vairagya will have to be cultivated also for purifying attachment.
For purifying the mental plane, thoughts will have to be silenced through Ajapa.
For purifying the intellect, keep ypur determination pure, firm and steady.
Center your memory on only one object in order to achieve purity of the Citta.
Purify the ego by transforming the objective of sleep.
Purify the inner errors such as desire, anger , jealousy and the like , by Viveka.
Conquer sloth by love for the ultimate objective.
Conquer sleep by any means.
Purify inner errors like pessimism, defeatism and doubt by cultivating patience.
Purify your beliefs and assumptions by liberal thought.
Purify the Rudra Granthi by means of two-fold Trataka and Samyama.
Divert the tendency of the sex nerves.
Change also the tendencies of the sensory nerves.
Purify the digestive system.
Purify the veins carring the blood.
Purify your defects of perception.
Purify distruction of thoughts.
Purify your physical distractions.
Purify your distractions of memory.
Purify distractions about the ultimate objective.
Remove distractions from your nature and make it pure.
Purify your distracted sentiments.
End the distractions and influences of the Vasana-s.

Forms of Kundalini

It is in this body. Its form is physical but its powers are superphysical. It is lying encoiled in teh triangle at Muladhara Chakra like the fine cotton thread, like a snake. If somehow it is awakened it straightens itself and becomes stiff. It fits its mouth in the opening of teh Sushumna. When the awakened power sharply contacts the mouth of the Sushumna, all the centers become active. When they become active, all the divine powers which form their base or which are installed in them begin to manifest themselves; the 'third eye' becomes active. The spiritual being becomes full of life and awareness of light is experienced.
Just as there is mental power in the body, likewise there is this power. The spinal column is the way it traverses on awakening. Sushumna is the medium and Sahasrara Chakra is the goal.
In persons living only on the gross plane, it remains covered by Tamoguna; it begins to stir in those who live on the subtle plane; it straightens itself in persons who have developed a transcedental attitude.
If the consciousness is on the lower plane and the inner being is distracted then it sleeps; if the consciousness dwells within, the inner being concentrated, then it starts moving. When there is no external consciousness, it is awakened. When it is aroused, one then experiences sudden tremours, heat, rising of thought currents and indifference to the external surroundings, and other things.
When it begins to tremble and move, the Sadhaka develops detachment towards material things and his mind centers on the subtle; his conduct and thought processes reflect their unworldliness and he gradually begins to remain in a state of absorption.
When it stirs automatically, he sees the form, the colour, the Bija, the deity, the nature, the element and the Guna of the first center. Likewise, as it begins to shake, the Sadhaka begins to experience celestial parfumes or to see the subtle form of Ishta.
The original form of the serpent power is coved by ignorance. In a slightly active state the Kundalini expresses itself in zeal, patience, and so on, and its aspect is full of Rajoguna. Its awakened state is full of divine power. Its final aspect is fully saturated with highest Sattva, knowledge, light and purity.
In the first stage of awakening the individual self is in an inert or a dense state; during its first elementary movements, it alternates between steadiness and distractions; when it straightens, the self experiences a state of deep concentration. When the Kundalini is attached to Sushumna it attains Samprajnata samadhi. When Sushumna is activated, then it acquires divine powers according to its course through the centers. When the Kundalini merges in the Sahasrara Chakra, it remains steadfast in itself.

Time of Awakening

The serpent power is filled with divine powers (Siddhi-s) at the time of awakening; when aroused it remains in an angry mood; in its waking, the state of the individual self is suppressed; in that state, the force moves unobstructed. At the time of its awakening, visions of gods are seen; visions of spirits are seen; the past is seen, impurities are visualized. Other beings attack the Jiva. Enjoyment in a disembodied state are experienced; greed and attachment become strong. At the time of awakening, the Ishta assumes a form during the three states and the Sadhaka experiences the intensity of the power. He works as if possessed by some force; he speaks, works, hears unconsciously; he still remains active in an unconscious state.

When Kundalini merges in Sahasrara Chakra

Great peace and contentment are experienced, the Sadhaka feels full within; no desires remain; no actions remain; no attachment. no sentiments. There is no Savikalpa consciousness, no sense of duality, no threefold planes remain; there is no object; the senses work in their own nature, so also does Prakriti. The seer turns his face away, Actions are performed but he does not do them. Thoughts come but he does not think. Success comes, but he does not know it; people are benefited but he is not aware of it. This Aparokshanubhuti or the state of intuitive experience is itself experienced.

SJ, that's quite a string of posts! It seems that you're trying to teach us what different Hindu schools have to say (or not say) about kundalini, and that you also have some questions about some of this, but I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for. Commenting on all those posts would take quite awhile, and we've already done quite a bit of that on this thread. My opening post there, in particular, is probably the best I can do in laying out some of the similarities and differences between kundalini and the Holy Spirit. And, of course, there is my book on this topic, which also explores these issues in depth.

I do agree that accounts of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit don't include mention of imbalances and what not, but you must remember that initially, many don't experience kundalini awakening that way either. Gopi Krishna, for example, had a blissful awakening, then later suffered from the imbalances. I had a blissful, honeymoon period when Baptized in the Spirit in Catholic Charismatic Renewal in 1973, then went through an emotional dark night of the soul in 1974-75. The Christian spiritual journey has never been described as all joy and bliss, and it may well be that the awakening of kundalini has played something of a roll in some of the struggles described by the Christian mystics.

Are you looking to clarify the relationship between kundalini and the Holy Spirit? Is this of interest to you for intellectual reasons, or do you yourself have an experiential struggle of some kind which is motivating these exchanges? I would certainly find it helpful to know more of what you are seeking here. Perhaps we can address it more directly.

Shalom,

Phil