Les,

Enlil is a Sumerian god of air and Enki also a Sumerian deity. I don't think they are real authors of this book which seems to me sth like Da Vinci Code...

Tucker, of course Yahwe and El are the same :-) El means God and Yahwe is the name of this God (I AM) revealed to Moses. Btw, Pharisees believed in the afterlife and in resurrection, only the aristocratic temple party of Saducees denied that. Since 2nd century B.C. Jewish religion was very apocalyptic (Daniel, Maccabees) so of course they believed in heaven :-) It's true that in older literature like some Psalms there is vague idea of afterlife. But it developed in time.

Re: Phil, Tucker and Les discussion,

I've been for years an Augustinian scholar and St Augustine has an excellent contrbution to this issue. It is not commonly known that Augustine's way back to the Church was through his spiritual experiences based on reading of Pagan Neoplatonist Plotibus (see book seven of the Confessions). Augustine claims that he experiences then God and his soul as absolutely incorporeal, non-extended, non-localized, placeless brings which has a liberating effect on him. But what he criticized Pagan Neoplatonists for was that they saw God within their souls but didn't praised him as the Lord. He boldly claimed that Pagans experience a true contemplation of God as That Which Is. But what is lacking is humble confession of sins and praising God as distinct from the soul, the Creator. I think that is valid today as well...

quote:

BTW, the tablets author is EN.KI, and his half brother is EN.LIL... which is what led me to make a possible connection re: Tucker’s post...

I'm still not following what this all has to do with the discussion, as El and YHWH are just different names used for God by the Hebrews (as Mt noted, too). I'm not familiar with the tablets you refer to nor their archeological and historical significance. I've browsed a little to see what I could learn and it seems that some sites take it as literal history, others as more mythological. What does seem clear is that the author of the book you mentioned has taken the material and adapted it as a science fiction read.

quote:

Originally posted by Les:

quote:

Originally posted by Tucker:
@Les

Les you are a fellow mystic and you have been up the pike a bit to say the least . And I am one of those mystics and yogis that has sat their life away, I have thousands and thousands of hours of meditation and meditative prayer experience. And Les I would like to read some of the other things that you have written if that is possible. And this is with the understanding that what a mystic writes one moment can become written different the next moment because of the constantly expanding cognitive leaps in understanding .

LOL... true. The only thing I've written on this subject is a concise recollection of my own journey to date...

The Making of a Christian Mystic: On Awakening and Enlightenment
https://www.amazon.com/Making-...-ebook/dp/B06WWD2QJJ

I left a great deal of the journey out, simply because I didn't want the reader to get lost in the detail, but rather just the message. Everything else I've written has been professionally focused, primarily on "Implicit Negation" and "Non-linear Logic", some of which I came away with because of the enlightenment experience. It allowed me to visualize and codify in both printed form and applied form as a database architecture. I simply now see things in 'sets' as 'objects', which is very difficult to teach because most think in linear terms vs. non-linear.

quote:

About the disconnect, I also experienced that. The way that I solved that was to come to the understanding that was that the God of the Old Testament, the God of Moses that the Jewish folks worship is not he same God as the Father. Originally the God of Abraham was El and the God that Moses made a covenant with was Yahweh. Nowadays they say that they are both the same, but originally they were not. I can't worship the God of Moses, He is too mean. But I can worship El the God of Abraham and He was the Father of the Heaven folks. The Jewish folks do not believe in Heaven because they worship Yahweh who was not a member of the Heavenly host. The reason that there is confusion in the Old Testament is because there were two Gods with El being the loving God and Yahweh being a war God that Moses made a covenant with. So to me the Father that are in Heaven, the Father of Christ Jesus, is the God of Abraham, not the God of Moses. Once I came to that understanding the transition from God the Absolute to God the Father no longer created a disconnect. Because, God the Father and God the Absolute are loving.

Anyway Les that is not Christian. It is just my way of solving the disconnect problem. The God Yahweh is not the Father of Jesus that Art in Heaven and with the God Yahweh, the God of Moses, there is no Heaven, there is no afterlife. Which also means that there might have been a deeper conflict going on between Lord Jesus and the Jewish religious leadership than what is usually speculated as the conflict. Their God had no Heaven (when you died you died) and Lord Jesus came from the Father who art in Heaven and He went to make a place for us in His Father's house. The only one in ancient Jewish history that was the Father in Heaven was El the God of Abraham.

Thanks! It fills in the gaps from your other posts. It's interesting for a number of reasons based on my own experiences and things I've considered along the way. Have you read what I consider to be Sitchen's opus?

The Lost Book of Enki
https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...ef=kinw_myk_ro_title

Based on what you've shared, you really need too if you haven't, especially with corroborating evidence uncovered since 2002 (Iraq). I mean you REALLY need to read it

Namaste'

Ok Less I will read it and thank you! And I am looking forward to reading your Making of a Mystic book also. Les I would like to share with you where I am at this point in time relative to the meditation that I am doing at the present. The center pillar (an energy column that runs straight up the center of the inside of one's physical body) is the Father as the "Just Is", the physical body is Christ Jesus as the "Just Is", and the energy fields that surround the outside of the physical body are the Holy Spirit as the "Just Is". And in this state the areas above the head become an infinite expanse of the mind, for lack of any other term, of the "Just Is". And I hold this meditation with no thought or expectations. Just quietly on and aware in an infinite way. I was feeling guilty about bothering Lord Jesus about the little things that I am seemingly having a problem with and I told Him that I was glad that He could multi task so that He could do all of the things that He does without my small things taking up too much of His processer time. When I said this He showed me the state of being that He was in when He was multi tasking. So I have been practicing being in this state of being for about a week now and I am starting to get pretty good at holding it while I am doing other things. I don't have any idea where it will lead over time but it is something new to explore .

Love,
Tucker

Les I do not have a Kindle reader.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:

quote:

The God Yahweh is not the Father of Jesus that Art in Heaven and with the God Yahweh, the God of Moses, there is no Heaven, there is no afterlife. Which also means that there might have been a deeper conflict going on between Lord Jesus and the Jewish religious leadership than what is usually speculated as the conflict. Their God had no Heaven (when you died you died) and Lord Jesus came from the Father who art in Heaven and He went to make a place for us in His Father's house. The only one in ancient Jewish history that was the Father in Heaven was El the God of Abraham.

It's all the same God, Tucker, just different names. What's going on in Jewish religious history is an ever-deepening revelation of God, which culminated in Jesus' revelation of Abba and the Trinity. From everything we know about Jesus, he was thoroughly Jewish and frequently quoted the Jewish scriptures in his teachings.

Some of the religious leaders of his day did believe in an afterlife, but the revelation of heaven as we know it today came through Jesus and the teaching of the early Church. One strain of belief holds that prior to Jesus' death and resurrection, there was no heaven; when a person died, they went to Sheol, a realm of shadows. Jesus opened all that and made heaven available to all.

That is interesting Phil and thank you very much for the input. I don't pray to God anymore, I pray to The Our Father that art in Heaven in the name of Christ Jesus just in case. And I do not pray to El either . Just to the Our Father. And it seems to work for me. To me the key is Christ Jesus anyway and He will sort out whoever it is that you are talking to if you approach things through love. My problem is Phil that I have met so many different entities during my travels as a mystic that I was not aware of even existing that I am shy about who I am talking to when it comes to the spiritual realm. And I do not think that normal Christians should worry about it because it was just a personal problem of mine .

Love you,
Tucker

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
Les,

Enlil is a Sumerian god of air and Enki also a Sumerian deity. I don't think they are real authors of this book which seems to me sth like Da Vinci Code...

Tucker, of course Yahwe and El are the same :-) El means God and Yahwe is the name of this God (I AM) revealed to Moses. Btw, Pharisees believed in the afterlife and in resurrection, only the aristocratic temple party of Saducees denied that. Since 2nd century B.C. Jewish religion was very apocalyptic (Daniel, Maccabees) so of course they believed in heaven :-) It's true that in older literature like some Psalms there is vague idea of afterlife. But it developed in time.

Thank you for the input Mt, it was interesting and important.
Love,
Tucker

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
Re: Phil, Tucker and Les discussion,

I've been for years an Augustinian scholar and St Augustine has an excellent contrbution to this issue. It is not commonly known that Augustine's way back to the Church was through his spiritual experiences based on reading of Pagan Neoplatonist Plotibus (see book seven of the Confessions). Augustine claims that he experiences then God and his soul as absolutely incorporeal, non-extended, non-localized, placeless brings which has a liberating effect on him. But what he criticized Pagan Neoplatonists for was that they saw God within their souls but didn't praised him as the Lord. He boldly claimed that Pagans experience a true contemplation of God as That Which Is. But what is lacking is humble confession of sins and praising God as distinct from the soul, the Creator. I think that is valid today as well...

That was also very interesting and needed to be said. I agree with you very much that, "humble confession of sins and praising God as distinct from the soul, the Creator," is a necessary mandatory.

Love,
Tucker

In Christian worldview between God and us there are only beings which are traditionally called angels - holy and fallen. I tend to classify all other entities which mystics and visionaries see and which are .not angels or demons as manifestations of Jungian archetypes. I think it is a good classification and sorts things out. What do you think Tucker?

My information came from Wikipedia when I was researching the name Yahweh and early Jewish history. I was going through trials and tribulations with a lot of psychological trauma happening at the time and I was have a problem with God being a loving entity. And I had come to the conclusion that I could not worship the God of the Old testament. He was too mean and mercenary.

After doing some research using Wikipedia I came to the conclusion that there was either two different Gods involved or that God became different when Christ Jesus was present. Because based on my experience as a mystic, when Christ Jesus was present God was love, when Christ Jesus was not present then God was not love. He was something that was scary and He was not love.

So I decided to go back to the basics and pray to the Our Father that art in Heaven in Christ Jesus' name as Christ Jesus suggested that we do. And not worrying about whether or not there were two Gods or not.

I can follow the presence of God of the Old Testament clear back to God the Absolute, I can follow the presence of Lord Jesus clear back to God the Absolute, but I can not follow the presence of The Father that art in Heaven back to God the absolute. Because the presence of The Father that art in Heaven is an overwhelming beautiful golden white loving energy form that I just get lost gazing at with no desire to go any farther.

So anyway guys it does seem that everything is the same, it all just depends on whether or not you approach It through the loving Lord Jesus or not.

Love,
Tucker

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
In Christian worldview between God and us there are only beings which are traditionally called angels - holy and fallen. I tend to classify all other entities which mystics and visionaries see and which are .not angels or demons as manifestations of Jungian archetypes. I think it is a good classification and sorts things out. What do you think Tucker?

Mt that works for me . All I know for sure is that Satan is real and that Satan's minions are real and that messing with them without The Father's permission is a mess that one does not want to get into. I know this because I tried too . The Father has a plan and messing with His plan just will not work. So I just do not worry about it anymore and I do not go to the places that I use to go as a mystic anymore either. To be honest with you Mt I have nothing but admiration for people that have simple faith like my wife does. To me they are the ones that are truly blessed by God.

Love,
Tucker

Tucker, could you say more about your problems with the Old Testament? What you say distinguishing between "God of the OT" and Father of the NT" was raised in the 2nd century B.C. by the Gnostics. There was a time ,long ago, when I had some problems with some of the Psalms (violent language, vindictiveness etc.), but I can't see any reason for disliking God of the OT. You know that Jesus taught that we can now cry Abba precisely to the Lord of the Armies! That was the great revelation. And Christian always saw in the OT prefigurations of Jesus and his work and teaching. A classical way of dealing with the apparent "meanness" of God in the OT is to interpret it metaphorically or allegorically. We never believed that God actually became angry with people so he destroyed everyone apart from Noah... Also, we don't believe, as Muslims, that every sentence is literally said by God - what is inspired is the meaning of the Bible, not verbal content. So I have a problem with not seeing Father, Son and the Spirit in Yahweh. ..

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:

quote:

BTW, the tablets author is EN.KI, and his half brother is EN.LIL... which is what led me to make a possible connection re: Tucker’s post...

I'm still not following what this all has to do with the discussion, as El and YHWH are just different names used for God by the Hebrews (as Mt noted, too). I'm not familiar with the tablets you refer to nor their archeological and historical significance. I've browsed a little to see what I could learn and it seems that some sites take it as literal history, others as more mythological. What does seem clear is that the author of the book you mentioned has taken the material and adapted it as a science fiction read.

Hi Phil,

From my perspective, it's absolutely relevant, though you may disagree. Ultimately, we're all looking for truth (vs. 'belief'), and this my own conclusions as they exist today, but feel free to delete the response if you need.

As I've mentioned before, I gave up on the church's path in 1989 after praying over it, and was told it was "OK, to find my own path, and I'd eventually come full circle". So I set everything I'd been lead to believe aside... Read everything I could get my hands on... all major religions, non-religions, esoteric works, etc., and weighed them against my experience, not my previous beliefs. Along the way I experienced further expansions of consciousness as I've related previously, culminating spiritually in enlightenment, which lead to a whole new level of research. Not about God any longer, nor about the true nature of Self, but as it relates to the nature of all things spiritually vs. the narrative. There were too many disconnects, too many rationalizations (excuses), and a lack of rational thread through history. The more I read and explored, the more physical evidence emerged that ran contrary to the narrative. I eventually found answers in some of the outliers such as mythology (Joseph Campbell, Joseph Alexander), geologist findings, decryption of thousands of stone tablets, etc. Long story short, here's what I came to believe occurred regarding how we came to be here...

Scientists have been baffled that 300,000 years ago humans took a huge leap in evolution ('becoming') that they refer to as the 'missing link'. Geologists have concluded that there has been many great events, some more destructive than others, and that they have occurred with some regularity. There seems to be two thoughts on this in that one set of evidence shows a disturbance that occurs approximately every 360 years ("Worlds in Collision" by Immanuel Velikovsky, "PlanetX" by Gill Broussard), and also evidence of another disturbance (Nibiru) every 3,600 years. There has been some posits that suggest they are one and the same, but that every 10th orbit is comes marginally closer to earth. Indeed, if one traces major catastrophe's in history it's hard to argue that the posit has no bearing.

I won't belabor the point, but Genesis seems laden with myth, especially after I came across the Enuma Elish, itself being a myth about the creation of earth. Physical evidence also seems to at least give one pause... the Kuiper Belt, the missing planet in our solar system that stumps science, etc. that does support the narrative of the myth.

There is also the God of Wrath and the God of Kindness, which I questioned even at a very young age when I was so involved with the church.

Finally, the enlightenment experience... more real than anything one can experience in this reality. God wasn't who/what I thought God (Absolute, I AM, THAT) was, dwarfing anything suggested in the bible by untold orders of magnitude.

At any rate, the translation of tablets supports the theory/narrative/description put forth by Sitchen. That the god of Genesis is not the creator God. That EN.KI and EN.LIL (half-brothers, sons of Anu) lead the expedition to Earth some 300,000+ years ago in search of Platinum Group metals to reduce to ORME's (anti-gravity properties, re-discovered by David Hudson in the last 20 years). This is where the South African gold mines began. It answers questions concerning the 'missing link' (DNA/genetic alteration), human's leap in evolution, ancient upheavals, the nuclear events that occurred around 2,500 bc, etc. etc.

Having come this far, I then reread the new testament from this perspective... reading the chronological red bible version. My understanding of what Jesus was relating in light of my experience was completely transformed, especially when I found the narrative of the Saint Thomas Christians, as it was relatively untainted by the orthodoxy. I could go on, but I'll stop here.

The point is, that yes, I think it's relevant to the discussion, and is somewhat reflective of what Tucker relates.

Peace

Les, I have a background in biology (M.S. + all the coursework for Ph.D. and years teaching it), including courses in genetics, evolution, human evolution, etc. I'm not aware of any biologist who buys into the alien astronaut stuff or sees the need for some extraordinary alien interventions to get from Australopethicus sp. to Homo sp. Once natural selection begins to accentuate linguistic proficiency, the line leading to Homo sapiens progresses quickly, as language is what makes culture possible (and was no doubt associated with brain size and intelligence as well).

I've watched some of those "Ancient Alien" episodes on History Channel and haven't found any of them convincing. they always go, "Is it possible that" etc. etc. Well, that's not science, and none of their explanations stand up to Occam's Razor alternatives -- that humans did it. They indulge numerous logical fallacies and conspiracy theories to make their points, but that's not science. That's about selling books and getting people to watch their TV shows. I'm not closed to the idea of alien visitations, some UFOs being ETs, etc. There's just not much hard-core evidence.

Les, if you think Worlds in Collision was real science, then you need to read Carl Sagan's savage rebuttal of it. The link below has a summary.
- https://www.velikovsky.info/Ca..._Worlds_in_Collision

----------

I will keep my response to your remarks about religion on this post, too, for they are similar.

quote:

. . . but Genesis seems laden with myth. . .

Any orthodox biblical scholar will tell you that. But myth is not falsehood; it's a story that reveals truth. Have you taken any classes on the Bible, Les? Read any books on biblical exegesis? I would suggest that you do so.

quote:

At any rate, the translation of tablets supports the theory/narrative/description put forth by Sitchen. That the god of Genesis is not the creator God.

I am starting to have a problem with this, as it could only be said by someone who doesn't understand Genesis or the Biblical understanding of God and creation.

quote:

There is also the God of Wrath and the God of Kindness, which I questioned even at a very young age when I was so involved with the church.

Yes, you'd better believe that God hates sin, malice, oppression, evil, etc. Still does! The Old Testament is full of that, and Jesus taught about it as well. But recall what Mt and I noted, too -- that the OT presents us with a progressive revelation of God that culminates in the birth of the Messiah.

quote:

God wasn't who/what I thought God (Absolute, I AM, THAT) was, dwarfing anything suggested in the bible by untold orders of magnitude.

I call bullshit! Moses face was so bright after encountering God that he had to put a veil over it when others came to see him. Have you had to do that?
You have experienced nothing greater than the Bible gives testament to, and no one reading this should think that you have greater spiritual or religious authority than the Bible. Same goes for anyone touting "experiences."

quote:

My understanding of what Jesus was relating in light of my experience was completely transformed, especially when I found the narrative of the Saint Thomas Christians, as it was relatively untainted by the orthodoxy.

Orthodoxy signifies what a group or organization believes. It doesn't "taint." It clarifies. It says "this is what we believe, not that." So I'm wondering what "orthodox" Christian beliefs you find objectionable?

-------------

Les, I am annoyed, for you have on several occasions posted material with a seeming intent to extol yourself and your understanding while putting down biblical and orthodox Christian teaching as though they are narrow and misinformed. I do not have time to keep responding to all that. I have appreciated your supportive interactions with people struggling with kundalini and other issues, but I do not care for your theological and philosophical musings. It's not that I do not welcome questions and reflections from a variety of perspectives, but I sense that that's not what's going on, here. If you want to start up a forum or blog and invite people to consider the stuff you're proposing, that's fine. I do not care for any more of it on mine.

Phil,

I hope you’ll accept my apologies. As I’m sure you’ve guessed, tact isn’t my strong suit.. I’ll respond tomorrow, hopefully with more clarity and respect for your efforts and the intent of the forum.

Namaste’
Les

That's OK, Les. I'm not interested in a discussion with you about all those topics touched on above. It would be pointless. No need for you to try to explain. I have a very good sense of where you're coming from and have for some time, and I do know you're not meaning to be offensive. This is a forum that is respectful of biblical revelation and Christian orthodoxy, however, and I do not think that connotes rigidity and narrow-mindedness, as you and others imply. It may be that this is not the best place for you to explore some of your ideas -- maybe a New Age or gnostic forum of some kind. That's up to you, however.