I was hoping for a bit of advice as regards contemplation. Its an aspect of prayer that's new to me, although I did meditate a little after my initial Kundalini awakening and the new age phase I went through some years back. I was introduced to Christian contemplation through Phil's Kundalini book and various essays by Thomas Keating et al .

Before I decided to practise, I was concerned with the similarities/differences between this and other forms of meditation and concluded that there were perhaps not many differences. But by taking a Holy word and focusing on it, the vibration of the word (in particular the name of Jesus)would perhaps have a more beneficial effect than other words I had tried years before (Ohm etc.) Certainly my faith is more solid than its ever been and my spirituality more grounded.

After a few false starts I found myself really able to clear my mind and focus on the word with a degree of intensity. My breathing deepened and I felt a real peace. What followed was an arousal of energy from my base chakra and a pleasant energetic sensation spreading across my waist and hips. I was able to some extent to concentrate on the repeated word rather than the sensation. I began to squeeze my eyes in their sockets, something I experienced a lot of when the K first manifested itself. After concluding the meditation 10-20 minutes later, I resurfaced, so to speak, with a great joy in my heart and felt compelled to dance. The rest of the day was truly joyous.

However, at night, I suffered another attack from the same source and with similar symptoms to the ones I have been experiencing intermittantly all year. And herein lies the dilemna. Are the benefits of contemplation worth the hassle of ensuing psychic assault? I realise I have to tread carefully and find my own feet in this, perhaps soften the intensity of the contemplation (but when I think about it, it isn't all that intense). I took a break for a week or so but returned to my contemplation again this morning with similar energy arousal and now await the consequences with bated breath.

Like most of us, the energy systems I am involved in are complex. I know I am slow to learn and sometimes foolishly determind. That's why a bit of advice would be most welcome, firstly on the energy arousal itself, and secondly on the nasty psychic web that seems to be stimulated by the process, either through the forum or by way of some decent literature.

I wonder also if anyone could point to any good reading about the similarities between slaying- in-the-spirit and Shaktiput.

Blessings and thanks for the help I have already received from this forum,

Stephen.

Stephen:

I've been waiting on Phil or Linda to respond to you, since they have the most experience on this forum advising people with Kundalini crisis, although advice always has a limited value.

From what you've said, I can't tell exactly what you mean by "contemplation," since some forms of prayer/use of attention are more or less aggravating for different individuals with some degree of K arousal. It sounds to me like the focus of your attention on the mantram you've chosen is more meditative than prayerful, but I could be misunderstanding you.

Some initial advice I've seen given is a shift from a more concentrated meditation to developing a very simple conversation with God, as a child in the lap of his parent, which more naturally leads to periods of intimate silence than when the K is activated through the repetition of a powerful name. Of course, the name Jesus as you've been using it may be devotional, so I'm only guessing and wanting to suggest distinctions. Some people repeat their mantram only to activate energy or to generate a silent space free of thought, which is often not the intimate silence arising from simple conversational prayer. In the Christian Contemplative tradition, to my knowledge, using a name is more in the context of Lectio Divina, where a passage of sacred scripture or word is chosen that helps to tenderize the heart with sentiment toward God.

I don't know if I'm explaining this well. Phil can be much clear on these distinctions, and both he and Linda are experienced with the many ways K can be aggravated in some and soothed in others. Of course, it is a bumpy ride for all of us, regardless of the care taken to go easy with it.

So rhetorically, I'd ask you, how much of your use of the name Jesus is for meditative concentration and how much just to remind you to turn your heart toward Him who loves you, as St. Teresa of Avila said? I tried Keating's Centering Prayer approach and found it too much like Buddhist/Hindu meditation, with a lot of K stimulation; whereas just talking to God as His child led me more easily into a kind of silence that was more relational and soothing. Yet even then there was the kind of K fallout you're describing.

So sometimes it is good for me to just stop everything and give the nervous system a rest. And, by the way, stopping has shown me at times how certain anxieties or longings are driving my need to stay busy with meditation, rather than deal with them more directly, as one might in therapy. Besides, once the K has been partially awakened, it will continue its course for the duration. Sometimes leaving it alone and letting it do its own thing reduces some of the aggravation for me.

Stephen,

I wish I had some wisdom to impart re your issues, but the sad news is I don't. The K seems to have a mind of its own, and I've had my best efforts in different types of prayer (and being prayed for) backfire as well into aggrevated energy situations, and psychic attacks. I have no idea what "reality" my electro magnetic field is tied into sometimes, (with the aid of my own wiring and subconscious drives), but the only thing I've learned is surrender. If one type of prayer isn't working, then it isn't working.

Re shaktiput and being slain in the spirit. My K was shot out by too much shaktiput through Siddha Yoga/Guru Maya, and I have since have visited various Siddha Yoga ashrams in past years to determine whether the shaktiput energy present would be a soothing effect, since this is the energy that threw me out of myself to begin with. (That was, after I conquered my fear that I was casting myself into demonic/occultic energy, since many believe that Siddha Yoga has a component of that). I did recite the SY mantra, which was always playing in the background and would vary it with Christian prayers, though I never participated in any group chanting - in fact, avoided it out of fear it would stir my energy up too much.

The upshot is that sometimes I had a terribly negative reaction and sometimes it smoothed out, but not enough for me to decide to pursue the SY path as a substitute for Christianity. But I can't say that I felt any particular demonic attacks after exposure to that energy.

I have been in incredible charismatic Christian energy where people have been slain in the spirit. It only happened to me once, several years ago, when my knees just fell flat out underneath me and I just went "somewhere else." I t really was an altered state and nothing like the K awakening or anything comparable to the shaktiput energy. In fact, its that distinction that has grounded me even more as a Christian. The Holy Spirit, as a I experienced it, in a slain in the spirit experience, was a completely different frequency, etc. than shaktiput, though many on the Eastern path would say both are the same thing.

Doesn't Phil write about this in his book? That's the only discussion I've seen of it, outside from books written by some Brit, I think last name Woodside, during the last century, who went to India to investigate Eastern paths versus Christianity. I only saw the books because I had access to some K books that are published in India, but I after reading them, I can't say that I found the info that helpful - more intellectual versus experiential analysis.

And a question for Stephen, have you been working with the monk/homeopath I recommended? If so, are the herbal remedies helping? Blessings, Linda

Stephen, I see you've already received two very fine responses, to which I have very little to add.

You might check out the web page on this site about Prayer in the Christian Tradition, especially the section on praying with Scripture (lectio divina). It seems to me that this approach helps to establish a more centered and sturdy "container" if you will for the energy, especially for people who have had ruptures in the subtle body. Centering prayer practiced outside the context of lectio divina can indeed over-stimulate the energy in such cases.

I would say that mystical, contemplative prayer (which is not the same as contemplative practice) only helps to integrate the energy. My sense is that the states of consciousness produced through centering prayer and other apophatic meditative methods are often contemplative-like, but not necessarily mystical. I know this might seem like splitting hairs to some, but I think the issue to be a very important one, especially for people who feel called to a more contemplative spirituality.
Thisis why I've set up a new forum on this topic, with 22 threads to try to nuance some of it.

Keep us posted on how you're doing with this issue. I think we all learn from one another through these exchanges.

w.c.
- The form of contemplation I have taken up was based on Keating's centred prayer ideas. I used the name as "consent", allowing God to be present with me.
Occasionally, my mind focused and steadied and the intention and the practise would become more about concentation and attention. It was this more meditative state that aroused K. Perhaps your misunderstanding of what I meant by contemplation reflects my own mind shifting between the two forms although, in practise(when the mind is still) if not in theory , they seem pretty much alike. I believe there is an advocate of centred prayer who has borrowed from Hindu meditation ideas (Fr. Cain or Cairns, perhaps the name is wrong) and who proposes more concentration in the use of the sacred word.

As I said, I am new to these forms of prayer and hopefully my understanding will increase with experience, God willing.

Linda
- I've been working with the monk for a few months now. The progress is slow but there has been an improvement. I feel as if the negative energies at play on my subconscious are beginning to abate, gradually. Things have quietened down in general anyway, although there have been a couple of nastier attacks which the K responded to. Aside from this the wisdom and encouragement he has offered have been invaluable. Hope this finds you well.

I have thought for some time,after my own experience, that slaying in the Spirit involved psychic power rather than a direct impartation of the Holy Spirit. Rather,the Spirit sanctifies the soul power involved in its Christian context. The gifts imparted belong to the realm of the soul too, rather than being direct charisms of the Spirit. They too are sanctified and are fruits of the collective energies of the body/church. I may be wrong and won't be dogmatic about it. I must say I am interested in Siddha and other cultural variations on Kundalini/psychic energy experience.

Blessings,

Stephen.

Stephen:

I just recalled a short little book by a Carmelite on Lectio Divina. The book's title is "Lectio Divina and the Practice of Teresian Prayer," by Sam Anthony Morello, OCD. It is only about 25 pages long but is a gem. He writes as though having an intimate conversation with the reader, like one would hope to find in a spiritual director, with choice quotations of the saint sprinkled throughout. Among readings, it was most like an experience of lectio itself, and really convinced me of the importance of not bypassing conversational prayer, since this seems to engender much good in the affect, which as Phil said nourishes the bodily/psychic container so K might operate a bit more smoothly. The little book is published by the Institute of Carmelite Studies and can probably be obtained by contacting them or through Amazon.

Best wishes and thanks for sharing

Stephen,

Very happy to hear that the monk has been of aid.

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to judge either shaktiput or the slain in the spirit phenomena as purely psychic energy. To me, that implies its on the astral plane, and the energy is travelling through the sixth chakra or third eye.

That isn't how I've seen the Holy Spirit visually, which is like white lightening travelling through the air. Since childhood, I've been able to see people's auras and some energies, though this ability only comes on naturally, I can't call it in. The most powerful example I saw of the Holy Spirit/slain in the spirit phenomena was in Medjugorge, at a Franciscan hermitage deep in the mountains where Father Jozo, the priest who served as the first spiritual director to the visionaries who see the Virgin Mary when they were just children, now presides. His is the most holy presence I have ever been in physically. The church was packed with pilgrims, and he called all the priests forward, they prayed together in a circle and he blessed them and then he sent out to the group itself, several hundred people, to individually bless everyone. People were slain in the spirit left and right, and I just sat and saw white lightening just streaking around the room. I was frozen, like in some altered state. I feel it was far from a psychic phenomena. These bolts of healing energy from some heavenly realm, only God knows what level of healing was going on, from physical to soul level. But the "bolts" themselves were entering through down through people's crown chakras. Many people reported it was the most extraordinary spiritual moment they've ever experienced, and I understand Father Jozo himself often has that impact on people.

There is also a priest in the States, who has become a friend of mine, who has a tremendous healing charisma. I watched him perform a healing mass and actually took notes and timed how the "energy changed" during the mass and later discussed it all with him. I've watched the white lightening phenomena happen during his healing masses, and many of those attending also are slain in the spirit both during the mass and afterwards, when he individually blesses people.
Anyway, this was during a time when I was really wondering what I was seeing, and he confirmed everything, describing, for example, that he had felt his body start vibrating dramatically at the same moment (during a particular recitation of the healing mass) that I saw the white lightening stuff start. That phenomena, it seemed, he sustained for at least 15 minutes, though I'm sure the angelic realm as well as individual pariticipants in the mass was also aiding the process.

This was all significant to me because in my dealings with the occultic energy healers, essentially trying to be white witches, the head of the group, now a very famous healer, took about three days into a healing conference to drum up some white lightening energy, compared to the priest, who was able to become a channel for it about 20 minutes into the healing mass. I had watched in amazement when I saw the white lightening stuff around the energy healer (this was years ago, and before I was really on the Christian path), and I later asked her about it. She was "healing" a woman who was paralyzed, lying on a healing table before a crowd of about 200, all conference participants. The healer was happy that I saw the energy and said that she had to "use" the group energy to drum it up, so to speak. It seems, in retrospect, an awful lot of energy to expend, and of course, the paralzyed woman was not "healed' before our eyes, although repeated ministerings like this had, she said, helped heal some of her nervous system and gave her more feeling in her legs.

I've experienced shakitput as an electrical energy, but more dense and more sticky than the white lightening of the Holy Spirit. Phil has attributed this density to the group energy involved via the guru who usually is the one administering the shaktiput to various members, consciously or unconsciously. But once I again, I don't think any of it is just "pure" psychic energy.

Actually, what I've seen a more psychic energy is the "annointing" experience, second baptism, etc. that Born Again Christians talk about. I've watched that phenomena in a several large group church settings, and it seemed more group/psychic oriented, though I'm sure the Holy Spirit is at work individually. But, once again, I haven't observed the white lightening effect in those few occasions, which I guess doesn't prove much. Also, I asked my friend, the priest with the healing phemenoma, about the likes of Benny Hinn, who I've also seen in person perform "healings" He said it was a lot of psychic energy, which is what I felt. I think people kind of collapse willingly, thinking they are slain in the spirit. I've actually experienced some charismatic Christian healers who believe they have this charisma as trying to tilt me back as they pray over me assuming I'm going to fall in some altered state. But that has only happened again twice since Medjugorge and both times, the priests involved, which also include Father D'Orio, who has an amazing healing charisma and is based in Massachusetts, were very well known ( and years proven) in this gift.

Blessings, Linda

Very interesting to read of your observations and experiences, Linda. Actually the energy I have experienced was in a Born Again Christian context with some kind of small time Benny Hinn type characters(sorry, I don't mean to be disparaging) who display, as you say, a psychic energy with what they term Baptism in the Spirit.

I had lumped all these phenomena together, when obviously you have felt subtle differences. This makes me wonder, if indeed the Holy Spirit is working directly thro the chaps you mention, if such a powerful energy would do me any good. At the same time I believe I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me and so shouldn't I be able to access His power directly if I believe? I know the healers I mentioned above only exacerbated my situation - fuel to the fire.Would contact with the energy you describe do the same? And why then does The Spirit work only in particular contexts? Do you know of any such energy working in more Born Again type settings?

And what about the subtlties of Kundalini manifesting itself in different contexts especially in groups? The same energy but with different vibrations and phenomena? Indeed I often experience it as a white bolt of light before my eyes, perhaps similar to the light you mention.

I have also presumed that the Holy Spirit worked at a more subtle level these days, in a way that was almost beyond detection - stirring up praise for God, making our hearts and minds purer and holier towards God etc, knowing that He could, at anytime, display his Pentecostal fire.That just seems so rare! To see His energies as you describe them must be awesome.

This all raises so many questions for me and I'm just firing them off the top of my head. I know its too simplistic to say that a blast of the Spirit would solve everything but what you describe sure sounds good to me. I must say, however that after the last experience of this type of thing I am reluctant to let myself get involved with any of it and anyway, I'm way past the quick fix stage in my journey. This has led me into a more contemplative approach to my faith of late. But even there again there is so much energy is at work.

One of my problems is that, being affiliated to Born again types, albeit in a non-denominational context, I have had to battle against a lot of prejudice. Indeed our small church had a few folk leave of late because some of us were reaching out to more charismatic types and introducing some lively worship into our church. The world of Catholic tradition that this website has opened up to me is so interesting - a far cry from the priestcraft and lack of sincerity our country's Catholic tradition is associated with.With this in mind I have every intention of finding the book w.c. mentioned. Similarly, the monk you put me onto has opened up a new understanding.

Many thanks,

Stephen.

Stephen, first let me say that the whole spirit of your sharing is so drastically different from a few visitors we've had here through the months that if feels like a drink of fresh water to read your posts. Thanks for coming around from time to time.

You wrote: I have also presumed that the Holy Spirit worked at a more subtle level these days, in a way that was almost beyond detection - stirring up praise for God, making our hearts and minds purer and holier towards God etc, knowing that He could, at anytime, display his Pentecostal fire.That just seems so rare! To see His energies as you describe them must be awesome.

I think the way you described above is generally how the Spirit works--very subtle, low-key, constantly nudging us toward goodness, love, humility, and other virtues. Any time we see evidence of this in anyone (yes, even non-Christians), you can be sure the Spirit is at work. What Linda is describing are dramatic manifestations generally associated with group gatherings of various kinds. I have a lot of experience with this as well, as does Johnboy, I know (not sure about w.c.). I don't see auras like Linda does (have only seen them on a few occasions), but what she describes is what I intuit is going on--a strong outpouring of a very pure Spirit-manifestation through the crown. My sense is that these manifestations are as much intended to be signs for unbelievers as gift-bestowing blessings for believers. Here we must acknowledge the reality of the charismatic gifts described in 1 Cor. 12 and 14 as figuring significantly.

While we're on this topic, I will share that the gift of tongues (glossalalia), which often figures significantly in these gatherings, has been a great help to me in keeping the kundalini regulated in terms of intensity, and balance. My own daily prayer times generally have considerably long periods of this. It suggests itself spontaneously after I pray a few prayers like the "Gloria," Hail Mary's, and Lord's Prayer, and I consent to give utterance silently. I could go on and on describing how glossalalia works with the energy, but know that just mentioning this topic throws people off and so will stop. Suffice it to say that all those sounds used in yogic mantra meditations to work with energy end up manifesting in glossalia--the right sounds at the right times producing the right kind of breathing. Those of you who've done yoga know how important sound and breathing are for working with energy. What the Spirit does with these dynamics is to stimulate them in just the right ways at the right time, however, which doesn't always happen with mantra meditations in a yogic context.

If I left any impression that I don't think the "white lightening" variety experience of the Holy Spirit that I've seen doesn't happen in Born Again gatherings or even in the case of shaktiput, then let me correct that. I've simply reported my experience, and as Phil pointed as among visual reasons for seeing a manifestation, I think God likes to bop me over the head occasionally, as a reminder, since my faith can be so weak at times!

Clearly, the Holy Spirit does whatever it can or wants to. I think the reason I've seen the white lightening stuff with the Catholic priests is because many of them are holy souls called by God for their vocations, and perhaps have come in with energy bodies prepared to serve as "channels" for this kind of huge charge. Moreover, they have also gone through stringent purification as part of their priestly process on all levels, and also perform the Eucharist regularly and participate in all kinds of ritual prayers. And these particular priests that I've cited, their charism is healing and deliverance. So Stephen, seek out a priest in your area known for that charism and see what your experience is.

I think I've experienced the "anointing" of the Born Again crowd as more psychic energy because the purification and soul levels weren't there, at least in the groups I was in, in terms of these people or their leaders in those situations being able to contain the energy.

Also, I wanted to correct my impression of the "white lightening" energy in the sense that I saw it travel both down through people's crown chakras and well as directly into the hearts. That wasn't as frequently, but it also zinged right there and that's important. The Sacred Heart is really at work through the Holy Spirit, as it should be.

Stephen, as far as a jolt of white lightening Holy Spirit completely healing a tilted K, (and what a relief that would be), I've gone into these situations, particularly when I went to Medjugorge hoping and praying for that. While I got some relief, I also had the "backfire" effect you've described, heaven and hell and back.

I wonder if its because when I go and make these pilgrimages or attend such gatherings, I receive some moments of grace, but then I have to remember the "work" of going, i.e. my good work, doesn't deliver me, Christ does, and clearly my soul path currently isn't leading me into any quick fixes with the K imbalance. Not that I'm into suffering, in fact, I can hardly tolerate this at times, but I guess the fruits are humility and patience. And in that, I realy discount the adage that we create our own reality or co create with God, the old New Age junk. Yes, we do through our choices, and at one point, by either diverting or walking with God through Christ. But we live with the consequences of our sin until grace manifests. I don't think we have much control over that.

Anyway, that's my round about way of saying don't push the K process, as awful as it gets at times. Blessings, Linda

Thanks for the replies!

Linda, I'm particularly taken with the idea that these priests come in to this life with energy bodies prepared for their work as channels of the Spirit's energies, as befits their calling, and also with the process of purification still required to be receptacles.

Stephen.