Warnings to all, this is a long post!

I've been studying everything I can about kundalini and deliverance in the Christian healing sense. I know for many people who have posted on this board, that this is a sore topic (and for myself included) because so many have been through some traditional Christian counseling that immediately identified the kundalini as demonic.

In my case, this may in fact be true, though for someone like Phil, whose awakening was very different, demonic elements don't apply at all. So I ask anyone reading this post to bear with my point of view since it has been developed out of my own experience.

Since my kundalini eruption was aggrevated by a physically traumatic event - the Northridge earthquake in 1994 - my awakening has a different set of factors that those who may have been on a path to either deliberately awaken the kundalini or involved in spiritual energy disciplines- charismatic prayer, etc., breath awareness meditation, etc - that accidentially triggered a kundalini awakening.

The trauma element of my K - which can be imitated through other life events, like abuse, drug problems, etc - certainly is a big factor in the level of discomfort I've experienced through the years, added to the fact that I had been exposed to a lot of psychic energy through non-Christian energy I'd gone to for "energy" therapy, as well as psychics, fortune tellers, etc. In any case, when the K decided to go off when it did, I wasn't spiritually, physically or psychologically prepared in any way, and have spent this past decade trying to understand and gain balance in the process.

And this path of discovery, as many of my past posts have revealed, has also been fraught with misinformation, terrible guidance both from eastern practioners, ineffective treatment from the western medical community, not only MDs, but psychologists and shrinks who had no understanding of the K, as well as members of the religious establishment. I think many people who read this board have experienced many of the same pitfalls and certainly identify with the effort it takes to deal with the K.

So my latest conundrum in this journey is examining the process of Christian prayer, not so much to pray "out" the K, as many deliverance types would think of it, but to pray for its healing. Since my K experience led me to basically jump out of my body, literally, I have always felt since its eruption that there is so little integration, despite even doing the yoga poses and breathing that many of us have tried to calm the pranic energy. Also, in the process of being out of my body in that initial explosion and in adopting various practices since, both in Christian prayer and in experimenting with various eastern practices recommended for the K, I've still always sensed the presence of "the other," in that there was this K energy, which literally felt like a snake, there was me - phsical and mental body, etc., my more negative emotional psychological junk, that I've always known -and then, particularly after Christian prayer, the presence of "the other," the holy spirit.

Now, the eastern paths , particularly those of the siddha variety, would claim that the Holy Spirit resides in their energy field as well, and the practioner would feel that "vibration" depending on the mixture of grace and purification that soul/body path was on. In other words, the K and "the other" would be one for someone like me if I were prepared for it on all levels.

However, one of the ongoing debates on this board has been, (and probably among the most controversial) is whether the presence of the Holy Spirit, in a Christian sense as part of the God-Jesus trinity, and the omnipotent "Holy Spirit" of the "All Paths Led to God" school, that the Godhead, is the same for all. I think Phil and I have individually concluded and stated that we've not experienced the same Holy Spirit "energy" outside of Christian practice and we've both described that this may be due to a more dense energy field within a group energy practice that is devoted to a guru, for example, with siddha energies. I've also actively participated in Tibetan Buddhist meditation, both by myself and in group settings. Perhaps one problem in realizing the "HOly Spirit" in this path for me is that I am not really a devotee, thus I don't feel the same in that group energy as I would, say, taking communion at a Catholic church.

But my most recent studies of this has led me to a more interesting theory which I wanted to hear feed back from those willing. Here is the structure I'm working from. We have a physical body, we have a soul body, which I'm using as emotional, psychological, etc. and we have the spirit. In the vibrational medicine model, the "spirit" body would be the etheric body. But my model isn't using that. I'm simply saying the spirit body is indeed that of the Holy Spirit for someone who has come into salvation as we Christian know it through Christ.

NOw bear with me. The second part of this argument includes the following, that part of the debate on this form has also been about the chakras, etheric energy body, etc., as it relates to how the K travels through the subtle energy bodies. The issue is whether or not this "etheric body" really exists as the popular perception states. This is no evidence, outside of some tests done at UCLA that all the non Christian energy healers relate to, that proves the existence of chakras, the etheric body, etc. This debate has also been receiving additional attention in our society at large, with the advent of "Vibrational" medicine theories being discussed by the western medical communities, that the etheric body has been essentially "waking" up to due to a global spiritual paradigmn shift in all walks. Asian and eastern practices distinguish themselves by always having been practicing vibrational medicine compared to our western variety and I guess, for many of us, we've found our bodies incredibly sensitized after a K awakening, and findthat we need different types of medication, probably more herbal in nature, than before. Is this because our etheric bodies have been awakened by the K?

Okay, now on to the next step of my argument. Does the K awaken actually in both the physical and by extension, the soul body? Consequently, the soul body, denser that the spirit body I refer to, then needs to go through all the purification process, as the K travels through it? Consequently, in non Christian spiritual practices devoted to this awakening, all the steps to balance out the etheric body, are necessary, and that leds eventually, and God willing, to a union with the "God Head", the Holy Spirit, when the energy pathways, mind, body spirit are prepared. So the emphasis in these walks in working up through the soul body to the God head.

But salvation via the Holy Spirit, which is a gift and grace from the Christian Jesus and Father God, seems to me a separate entity, perhaps, as some would say, a separate "etheric" body that is essentially that of Christ (or others could say, our "higher" self) that comes over us. I think of it as an overlay, always with us, and then our soul bodies start refining and healing with the HOly Spirit's aid. OUr healing isn't a matter of working up through our soul body as much as aligning our soul and physical body with this "etheric" overlay of the Holy Spirit.

But does the bible tell us that the Holy Spirit is in us automically? I don't think so. It is a gift from Christ that we receive. We don't talk about "awakening" the Holy Spirit. We talk about receiving it. Totally different. It comes down upon us, according to Acts, and as Christians, I think we're supposed to look at the Bible as the revelation. If anyone out there knows of passages in the bible that tell us that the Holy Spirit is automically within us, in the sense that it "travels" unawakened in us, please let me know.

Because what I'm testing in prayer about the K is this: can I pray to sever the cord to my soul body, this etheric entity created out of the K awakening that I feel has been imposed on me, and link my soul body to the Holy Spirit instead? Clearly, for me, the Spirit body is there and kicking, but always under attack. And my physical mind-body - is the vessel that really gets the brunt of it.

Or is this the stuff of possession? I'm putting the K out as a separate entity of possession over my soul body. Is the wrong argument to begin with?
Does the K really interfere with the workings of the Christian Holy Spirit, by imposing the energy to travel in loop, with the K coming up and the Holy Spirit coming "over" us and salvation on all levels for we K impaired is when these two energies merge comfortably? Or, for someone like me, with tears in my subtle energy body as a result of the K explosion and trauma, is this K body, actually, of some other energy field all together, and invasive and potentially demonic in nature?

I'm asking this because some successful Christian deliverance ministers suggest that one of the cornerstones of healing out of occultic realms is this severing the link between the physical and soul body, or "astral body" as we know it on the eastern walk with the physical body and "spirit" body of the Holy Spirit. The thinking (not to mention some of the evidence) is that the soul body has been so tampered with in the occultic realm (in my case the psychic healing and demonic Buddhist realm) that the link has to be severed completely. The demonic disturbances I still experience come from the link in this realm. The Holy Spirit can stand between me and this world, but unless I cut the cord, (which obviously includes grace as well as lot of things that must be dealt with on all levels- spiritually, emotionlly, subconsciously)- the disturbances will continue. And they do.

I can see the weakness in this argument, but I do see some real sense in it as well. In my case, the prayer of this kind of deliverance hasn't been working, though I haven't been at it very long.

I know this is a long post, but I'm anxious to hear if this makes sense to any of you? I welcome any feedback, negative or positive. Like anyone with an impaired K, my healing process continues to be one long and somewhat exhausting experiment. Blessings, Linda

Linda:

I'm going to take some more time reading your post before making a serious attempt to respond. But much of what you say is congruent with my experience. I'd been traversing a Buddhist-Hindu-Qigong-Shaktipat path of the variety you describe, with K awakening in 1992, which was a response to forgiveness work with my family. Even though I've had some rough periods of K/psychological turmoil, and even some astral disruptions, there's always been this sense that exercising the heart aspect has been protective. You impress me as one with a significant development in this respect, but I'm just wondering if "seva" has ever helped calm and integrate, perhaps a kind of exorcism through service to others . . .

Another thought here Linda, which may be quite irrelevant for your concerns, but I'll throw it out . . .

Have you ever tried taking small to moderate doses of Omega-3 fatty acids, as in fish oil capsules? I've done some extensive literature review on this - it's applications and risks. Omega-3's appear crucial for nervous system homeostasis. You can access this information through a local medical school website. Click on their library, then click on "PubMed" and type in the keywords; this will pull up all the available citations that include your keywords. You can click on these citations and pull up the paper's abstract. Of course, finding a good naturopathic physician is probably warranted in any such attempts.

Assuming your not a vegetarian, you might find supportive data for the use of O3s. In my case, they certainly seem to soothe out my nervous system. It's too early to tell, but so far my moods have been more stable. For vegetarians, there is Flax seed oil, high in ALA, which the body is apparently able to convert to EPA; however, increases in DHA appear to be missing from this approach. And for myself, I haven't been able to get these effects on mood and energy soothing through increased intake of fish, perhaps because I may have been too deficient, but that's just a guess.

A few notes about the risks I've seen discussed in the research. DHA and EPA are apparently quite vulnerable to oxidation, leading to inceases in lipid peroxidation. Most of the research indicates this as a risk when O3s are taken in large amounts, increasing homocysteine and LDL levels. I'm taking about 2 grams of total fish oil a day, which seems to fall below the amount where the oxidative effects on lipids begin. These risks are quantified in terms of both duration and dosage, so I'm limiting my time on the O3s as well - probably a month or two, and then see my naturopathic doctor again. Fortunately, there is also research indicating a variety of supplements capable of nullifying or significantly subduing elevations in these undesirable lipid markers, but I haven't yet seen them included among subjects taking the O3s. Folic acid, B-6, and B-12 (the data seems robust for how these lower homocysteine, as well as chelate the unwanted results of lipid peroxidation - advanced glycogen and advanced lipo-oxidation end-products), as well as Pantethine (related to Pantothenic acid, but functioning to regulate both lipid and carbohydrate metabolism), and the amino acids Taurine and Carnitine, which have been shown to provide neuroprotective effects from these oxidating influences. Vitamin E stores in the body also seems to be crucial, at least as an inverse measure for when oxidated lipids rise. The only other potentially negative side-effect I've found so far in the research is a blood-thinning effect.

Anyway, I'll keep you updated about the results I get over the next weeks and months. Understand, of course, that I'm just sharing potentially useful information, not playing doctor. Working with a naturopath has helped me utilize this information prudently, covering the bases in terms of bodily nourishment and balance, so needed since the amount of electricity running through me has only increased over the past 10 years.

w.c. (and others following this thread), Linda has written to me that she's going through a struggle now and needs a break from this forum and heavy concentration. She's also asked to be relieved of her duties as moderator since that designation on this forum meant that she received emails of forum posts.

Those are very deep and penetrating observations and inquiries, w.c., and I'll need to think them over some more. I've tried all kinds of ways to understand/image/conceptualize what's going on here, in what part(s) of our being, who's who, etc. But in the end, I'm still left with the same "practice," which is surrendering all aspects of my being--body, mind, emotions, and anything else I want to add to the list--to the care of Christ and the nurturance of the Spirit he brings.

I have probably come to more helpful clarity about some of these issues through theology and philosophy than through vibrational medicine, new age metaphysics, Hindu/yogic systems, etc. In a nutshell, what I believe is very much orthodox Christian doctrine, namely: that God, through Christ, is creating a new humanity, and that our present humanity is taken up into Christ's and just everything about it is transformed according to the pattern of his sacred humanity. This means that kundalini, individuation, sex drives, etc., come under the governance of his Spirit, which is the energy/intelligence of his own connection with the Father. When I keep this focus, all goes well for me. When I start trying to separate out the parts of my being--e.g., this for God, this for me, this gets thrown away--it goes badly for me, and the energy goes wacky.

I'll give more thought to your posts, but I'm not sure I haven't already given you my best reply. You do raise some interesting metaphysical questions, and I realize that the issues at stake aren't merely academic.

Follow-up:

Oh yes, Omega 3 fatty acids are good for the nervous system. Doing whatever one can to give the body what it really needs is good stewardship of God's creation.

Finding out what one's allergies are, reducing exposure to them, exercising, eating properly, resting well, etc.--all this helps to provide a healthy "vessel" for the energies of transformation.

I also take mega-doses of C, and a few other things that have been recommended to me by an orthomolecular doctor whom I worked with for a few years. See http://www.brightspot.org for more info about this wonderful place . . . and admire their nice web site when you visit; I got it going for them years ago, but am not keeping it up any more (it's basically as I left it).

Very sorry to hear Linda is going through a rough patch.

I hope its Ok for me to make a couple of comments on what she said without perhaps having fully digested it.

I have been praying for some time now that God would cut the chords between my subtle body and my physical body/mind, thus granting me relief from the upheavals/loops in the aura which affect the body/mind. Infact, I have used the very language that Linda uses above in my prayers. I have also asked the Holy Spirit to fill my body and my aura with his power thus overcoming and healing any damage there.

After reading Linda's post my mind immediately referenced the words from 1 Corinthians 3:16 about the Spirit living in us and our bodies being temples of the Spirit. I also thought about the yogic teachings of the various bodies and how they are integrated, rather than separate, which makes the idea of severance difficult for me. But . . .

Linda contrasted the eastern notions of working up through the body to the soul body to the God head, with the Christian idea of receiving the Spirit firstly, thereby getting healing for the soul body and physical body. I like this. The Spirit touches our core, our central being and works his way down or out, depending on how you look at it. Does the Spirit in us constitute another "body", the equivalent of an etheric body as Linda says? Perhaps, in this scenario, we get too close to the notion that the Spirit, as part of the Godhead becomes us, too close to a non duality. Perhaps we have to focus on our distinct-ness(?) from God in this situation, thus allowing Him to do the work. Or perhaps it is that very closeness and unity, that idea that we are part with Christ and that He has sent a Comforter to be part of us that allows us to stay sane during the most horrific upheavals. I sense the light of God more, more tangibly in fact, when I am going thru the most severe attacks. I hope Linda senses this.

Only throwing the philosophy in at random, nothing to do with the spirit of Linda's Email really, which was related to her own experience, healing and deliverance. My heart-felt sympathy is with her. I have been there. I am there. My body and subtle body, like those of some other people going thru K, are so vulnerable to wicked negative energy. I have experienced it in my aura and it has affected my body and mind. I have experienced it in my physical body as ice cold patches within me, having drawn the negative energy in thru my base chakra from sources such as healers, black magicians etc.

And yet the Holy Spirit leads me. He continues to permit these links, he doesn't separate me. I am constantly tied to these sources. At times I doubt that it is possible for any severance to take place, that, indeed the links to negative forces are part of some universal law resembling karma. But still the Spirit leads me. He guides me into areas, just at the right time, where I learn a spiritual discipline in prayer or meditation, or find resources such as shalomplace which combat the particular assault I am receiving. I so pray this for Linda. She has really helped me in the past year.

I agree that we can rid ourselves of a lot of negative astral energy by breaking occult ties but can we separate the astral body from the spirit body? I don't know. In my experience the link has been maintained but the more I surrender to God the more the Spirit, dwelling in every part of me, is able to guide and take control. Sometimes I feel like my house is divided but then I realise that the negative side of all this is actually an invasion and that the Spirit is still master of my house. If i was able to surrender everythging to Christ, I wonder if the links would still be maintained. I don't think so. I have such a long way to go however!!

Wherever the Spirit resides, however much we are one with Him I only know He is there and is personal in our lives - a Comforter.

Phil:

I've landed over and over again where you and Stephen and Linda describe. For years I thought the Holy Spirit was simply another motif for K. It only took one simple moment in prayer to realize the vast difference. Yet their interrelationship is so powerful. Your description of our being refashioned according to the Divine Humanity of Christ makes complete intutive sense to me.

Bless Linda. Perhaps what she's going through is mostly a private delicacy between her and God. Since the work of the Holy Spirit is often without our knowing, little wonder it's so difficult to bring relief to this bodily transformation through attempts at understanding the process. St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross sometimes strongly encourged letting go of all such reflections. But when she comes through this she'll probably be able to help others in less didactic ways than we sometimes struggle to give.

Thanks to all of you for your additional insights and support.

quote:

Originally posted by linda:
[qb]Thanks to all of you for your additional insights and support.[/qb]

Thank you, Linda. Many returns here. You have been most helpful to many.

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- Long post -

I am chagrined that a long post about topics on this thread was just lost when I submitted it and I didn't copy it to the clipboard before posting as I usually do! Rats.

I haven't the energy to do it again. Here were some of the points:

- the human body has an electrical energy flowing through the nervous system and we can even say through the meridians, which are conduits of this energy which don't track with the nerves, but which are organized conductors of this energy.

- all sorts of things affect the flow and intensity of this energy: food, exercise, breathing patterns, contact with people, the kinds of thoughts one holds, etc.

- kundalini symptoms can be explained in terms of intensifying this energy;

- that this energy is intensified awakens parts of the brain that were previously latent, or functioning at a low level.

- if the energy is intensified too fast or too much, it might leak out of the nerves or meridians; this would be a very definite experience, and could produce vulnerabilities in the nerves and meridians which would be very difficult to heal. Example: a friend who thought he was possessed because of all kinds of strange phenomena and feelings he had was instantly "cured" when his cervical vertebrae were aligned by a chiropractor.

In other words, there's so much about all this which can be accounted for without resorting to occult explanations and "systems." We're dealing with bioelectricity and its flow. That's all.

Now I'm not denying that spirituality affects this electrical flow. I'm sure it does. I'm just noting that the intensification of this flow and the brain awakening that can accompany it need not be correlated with spirituality. A woman I know had her "kundalini awakening" when she fell off a chair onto her tailbone. She felt the same rush of energy up the spine and in the ensuing weeks had all kinds of psychic experiences. Then one morning she woke up and it was all over. Go figure.

I'm also not denying that disincarnate beings can interact with our energy field, latch onto it, feed off it, live off it vicariously, etc., and that this can affect our experience and complicate things. Anything is possible, but that needs to be carefully discerned. A wacko energy flow can produce all kinds of weird sensations in the body, not to mention emotions and images in the brain.

What this all underscores for me is the notion that our body really IS a temple of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit lives and moves through this amazing organism that we are, including our bio-electrical processes, which can be accounted for naturally (and so, to some extent, that means kundalini can be accounted for naturally). What we call our souls is what gives form to and informs our living processes--through the DNA, nerves, electricity, etc. As you can tell, I'm working more and more out of a very Western approach, here.

You can all make the intuitive leaps, I'm sure, to where this goes in terms of the life in Christ and the Spirit. Christ re-forms/transforms the pattern of the soul, which has a profound influence on all apsects of our physical life as well. I would guess that even our DNA is stimulated in new ways, or that new formative patterns are awakened in our DNA. Our bio-electricity is effected as well, no doubt.

But what of the wounds we have, the damage to nerves, nerve plexi, meridians? Some may remain damaged even as the new Christ life grows. Physical healing often accompanies renewal, but there really are no guarantees. In the end, this earthen vessel is left behind, and the formative intelligence which lived through and in it goes on, perhaps to infuse another kind of body in the afterlife. But my point, here, is that we can have the Christ life growing in us and still be very wounded in our nerves, meridians, plexi, organs, etc. These wounds are not obstacles to the growth of the Christ life and might actually serve as a catalyst for deeper surrender and growth.