I'm always concerned about the amount of Christians who see Kundalini as a demonic energy. I've been told so many times by certain Christian types that the K needs cast out etc. Mostly I just ignore them and don't get involved in any arguments. Recently however, someone quite close to me suggested I needed delivered from this energy which he regarded as "a Hindu thing". I responded by saying that the energy itself wasn't inherently bad and that the "Hindu thing" was only problematic because Kundalini was worshipped as a deity. I made the analogy of a tree or a rock, a created thing, which could, conceivably, be worshipped by a pagan, but wasn't bad, evil, or demonic beause of that. A tree is still a tree etc. So I would regard K as simply a created energy in the universe which can be given over to the hands of the Holy Spirit.

I wonder however, if by worshipping a created energy, or object, as divine, whether this exposes the energy to demonic influence. It seems to me that evil spirits are energised by worship or respect and that where a created energy itself is worshipped, the spirit may try to occupy that energy in order to feed off the adoration being dished out.

Without wishing to consign all Hindus or pagans to Hell, I'm beginning to notice the inherent spiritual dangers in turning any created energy into an object of veneration, hence Jehovah's strong warnings against idolatry in the O.T.

I think there's much merit to your concern, Stephen. Of course, many do not consider k to be a created energy, but the Holy Spirit, or (in Hinduism) the Goddess Shakti. To what extent God considers the true intent of the heart even in those who mistake some aspect of creation for the divine is beyond our knowledge.

I've heard from many through the years who've tried to get rid of a k awakening, even to have it exorcised. It didn't work, of course -- made it only worse, in the case of being prayed over. So what these well-intentioned Christians want is an unworkable solution to an issue about which they're largely uninformed. Might as well try to reverse adolesence, which can also seem to be "of the devil" at times, no?

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
To what extent God considers the true intent of the heart even in those who mistake some aspect of creation for the divine is beyond our knowledge.

May this, perhaps, be an essential difference between exoteric and esoteric religion? And between religion as Being and Path-walking on the one hand, and mood-making on the other?

Or is that pushing it too far?

HP, here's the official Catholic teaching on salvation, conscience and religion.

quote:

Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who strive to live a good life, thanks to His grace. Lumen Gentium 16

The Spirit of God is at work in all people, and Her ultimate goal is to lead people to Christ. If, because of the absence of exoteric religion, the Gospel proclamation is not available to a person, they will be judged according to how faithful they've been to the leadings of the Spirit in their conscience. This is known as "baptism of desire," or "implicit faith." If Christian preaching is available and they reject it, that's another matter altogether, although even then, God is the one to judge whether their reasons for rejecting the Christian religion are worthy.

I don't know if that answers your question, but it's what I had in mind when I wrote the statement you commented on above.

Not sure it does either, but thank you for clarifying what you meant.

The doctrine you quote here certainly coincides with my own beliefs.

Interesting discussion as I have been wondering about both those things.

The first because I was always very wary of labelling things that are seen to be threatening as "demonic" e.g some alternative medicine practices. It seems to be that as Stephen pointed out its whether something becomes a substitute or alternative to Gods power.

I personally am aware of the positive effect of simply massaging certain accupuncture points on my foot. That said, a few weeks ago I felt a weight on my chest, I was also upset and when I started praying I found I was gagging, this happened over a couple of evenings...I also experienced a sensation of not being able to breathe. I had not felt this kind of thing before and it was intensified when I was praying using the word Jesus. After consulting some christian friends of mine I went round to their house for prayer. The whole experience of them praying over me lasted 3 hours and what I can only describe as something not of me but definitely negative and destructive inside me coming out was very real. I experienced gagging, strange gutteral noises, a sensation of my airways being blocked, which only stopped when one of them commanded "it" to let my throat go.

As far as conventional psychology goes perhaps some people might interpret this experience differently , as I was conscious but not controlling what was coming out of my mouth, but I know how it felt and it felt like there was something else there. I had previously been a bit scheptical about these kinds of extreme things and if anything rather condescending in my mind about those "fundamentalis" christians but now I am convinced that there is a spiritual realm and there is a spiritual battle there,


I have also been practicing a form of what in Ajapanese is called yo-ki-ho or zen style yoga as part of my calligraphy course. I am still engaging in this but found myself wary to say a chant that equated with me saying I worship Buddha as the Supreme Being. When I expllained to my teacher my reservations her reply was that a christian nun friend had no problem saying it as she considered all paths to "lead to the same mountian" so praying to Buddha was equivalent to focusing on her idea of God and goodness. While I appreciate this I am finding my views on this a bit confused. Previously I had believed the same but recent experiences initaiated by regular daily solitary prayer and an increasing desire to learn from Christs teachings has left me somewhat bereft of a clear opinion right now.

After the first experience I felt very empty but I was baptised a few days later after which I felt extremely peaceful and what I can only describe as full, there was also a strong sensation of light coming from above my head.

Any thoughts r,e how to be discerning about what comes from God and what doesn{t and insights into positive experiences of eastern practices but also experiences of a light or heavy spiritual feeling about a place would be very welcome.

Thanks for sharing your experiences Rachel. It's a murky business, the demonic realms. I can't speak for anyone else, but my own experiences have usually been connected to some sin that had a grip on me. I also wonder if spirits are involved in certain kinds of addiction - drugs, pornography. Maybe sometimes, maybe not. I do think its about purity and the state of the heart rather than anything like one's practise of zen or yoga as some fundamentalists might suggest.

I'm pretty cautious about a lot of so-called new age techniques. I've had demonic encounters after aromatherapy massage, but am inclined to think that was more about the therapist (one in particular was very new age and into angels in a big way) than about the aromatherapy itself. I'd also feel very averse to worshipping any created being, energy or object (including the Buddha). Not just for the reasons I mentioned above but for theological/ontological reasons as well.

Dear Stephen and friends,

I know it often seems fruitless to share with most Christians about kundalini. But, I do think we owe it to our brothers and sisters in Christ to attempt a thoughtful response to the question:

Is kundalini from the devil?

After all, as you note, Stephen, the connection between k. and Hinduism is very tight, and Hinduism is a vast religion, many of its sects openly worshipping various gods/goddesses who contradict Christian theology. As you know, many kundalini folks do worship it as a goddess or god and directly call on her/him as the Creator. Hence, many people who offer kundalini awakening and/or kundalini energy manipulation are transmitting the deity or spirit in and through the kundalini energy (even if they don�t know it). The transmission can happen through mantras, touching, sexual activity, eating their food, casting spells, etc.

Hence, while the kundalini per se is not from the devil, one�s contact with those who do worship deities or other spirits through kundalini work / energy work are definitely vulnerable to infestation of evil spirits. This is what happened to me. Doesn�t mean it�s happened to you, necessarily�

Interesting you should bring this topic up, Stephen, as I am reading about exorcism and even considered starting a new thread just last week. Here is an excerpt from a book, Deliverance from Evil Spirits, by Francis MacNutt. He and Derek Prince are the most balanced, intelligent and gifted ministers in this area, each having about 30 years of experience.

�In 1977 I met a fine priest in India, Fr. Rufus Pereira, who in two brief years had prayed to free more than four hundred individuals from demonic influence. He estimated that about one third of them were delivered from demons identifying themselves as Hindu gods. I should mention that Fr. Rufus is not a wild-eyed enthusiast but a highly educated seminary professor who studied Scripture in Rome and is highly regarded by the Indian bishops, who gave him permission to perform exorcisms.

Fr. Rufus acknowledged the noble aspects of religion in India but was also willing to face the darker, demonic side of Hindu culture. He graciously granted me an interview, in which he said:

I love my country very much and have great respect for Indian religion, but perhaps there is no religion that has within itself such a wide spectrum, ranging all the way from the highest form of religious endeavor to the lowest degradation of humanity�all in the name of religion. I have been led to believe that many of the gods and goddesses in Hindu mythology are nothing other than demons. � p. 112

He goes on to describe a case of possession of Catholic girl who, during a conference, was taken into a classroom and was laid out on a table, assuming �the dancing posture� of shiva, the dancing god. Though she knew nothing about Indian dancing, �Yet, here she was, assuming the absolutely correct dancing poses in her fingers, her wrists, her hands and feet�the exact poses of this very god. It was something fantastic to watch, as her eyes and her mouth were all changed into the features of this Hindu god. I later found that it got into her because of a spell cast by a Hindu doctor.� P. 113.

By the way, this god, shiva (the male counterpart of kundalini shakti), is essentially the mantra of the Siddha Yoga tradition which spread like wildfire around America and the world when Swami M. and his followers initiated kundalini awakening in thousands beginning in the 70�s. So while one may get kundalini awakening through the mantra/touch of the guru, you�re also open to the infestation of the spirits upon whom they�ve summoned.

So, Stephen, if a pure-hearted friend offers to pray for you to be free of evil spirits, and you may have contacted them through some energy exchange with others, maybe God is wanting to bless you through them?

Much peace to you,
Shasha

Phil wrote:
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To what extent God considers the true intent of the heart even in those who mistake some aspect of creation for the divine is beyond our knowledge.
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I suspect that when a deity is involved, eventually the seeker will find that what the deity has to offer and what Christ has to offer do come into opposition with one another. The seeker will have to make a choice; one cannot serve two masters.

Dear Rachel,

I am praising God for those wonderful friends of yours who helped deliver you!! Thank you, Father.

I have read many, many times that demons/ evil spirits exit through the mouth. Often there is a coughing along with a sense of gagging or a strange spruttering sound. I have seen this personally on two ocassions.

The best authors on this subject I found so far, as I've mentioned above, are Franciss MacNutt (Deliverance from Evil Spirits) and Derek Prince (They Shall Expell Demons). Of course, Francis' book "Healing" is the place to start.

many more blessings to you, Rachel!

Stephen, you write:

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It's a murky business, the demonic realms. I can't speak for anyone else, but my own experiences have usually been connected to some sin that had a grip on me.

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In Francis' book, he defines the different kinds of spirits involved in sin, trauma, the occult, spiritism, and also the way they may interrelate. Francis has reported sins like pornography can in fact be the result of demonic forces. He has even witnessed complete deliverances of homosexuals...delivered of their homosexuality, that is.

I agree with you about the Hindu gods and godesses, Shasha. Some might say they only represent aspects of consciousness or energy, where consciousness and energy themselves are divine. Of course this is fundamentally opposed to the Christian view of God and, in my opinion, potentialy exposes the believer to demonic interference.

However, I don't belief the person who commented on my own need for deliverance has any understanding of k or any real experience of demonic activity for that matter. For one thing, my awakening was spontaneous, not part of any energy exchange. I don't believe I am or ever have been possesed by a spirit. In my experience k has opened me up to spiritual and metaphysical realms where one can come in to contact with the demonic if one gives oneself over willfuly to sin. Most of the attacks that have happened in my life have been on a purely human, psychic level, where k has left me open and there has been some sort of metaphysical link which psychic, mediumstic types have exploited. Now there may be demonic activity behind that exploitation but that's given over 100% to the Holy Spirit who, in truth, inhabits me.

The activity of the k is still pretty pronounced at times but I see a lot of benefit in that as well. Sure it leaves me open but that openeness is only exploited because of sin, or because I have exposed myself to mainly new age influences after the awakening and have therefore become embroiled in that energy, not because of k itself. K may cause the openness, but isn't a direct cause of the attacks. As I say, I've given any energy transference post k into the hands of Christ and am pretty reluctant to expose myself directly to any healer type, even one like Francis (whom I saw at a healing meeting in Edinburgh BTW).

Your observation that spirits and demons are involved in shaktipat and other k initiations is spot on, imo. Spontaneous k awakenings seem different however and, again, in my opinion, are only truly vulnerable to demonic activity when the k is worshipped or placed into the hands of another deity and not into the hands of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

As usual your thoughts and experiences are much valued, Shasha. Thank you!

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I don't believe I am or ever have been possesed by a spirit....Now there may be demonic activity behind that exploitation but that's given over 100% to the Holy Spirit who, in truth, inhabits me.

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Stephen-- Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you may be *possessed*. I know that's not true, but I see how my post would lead you to the above.

There is an important distinction to be made, IMO. Being *possessed* and being *oppressed* by spirts is very different. As you've invited Christ into your life, the Holy Spirit does inhabit you, and I believe, He possesses us. On the other hand, it's possible that evil spirits, nonetheless, can and do oppress many, many Christians. This is the experience of those who walk in deliverance ministries. And Francis is not a fool. He recognizs that there is a difference, further, between the need for deliverance of a spirit and the need for inner healing. The sin in our lives could be the consequence of one or both. In fact, he suggests that those who don't have this kind of discernment may not be suited for this kind of ministry.

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I've given any energy transference post k into the hands of Christ and am pretty reluctant to expose myself directly to any healer type, even one like Francis (whom I saw at a healing meeting in Edinburgh BTW).
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Hmm...what do you mean by this,
**if you don't mind getting into it?**

Do you mean you feel like you don't need healing or that you wouldn't expose yourself to any "healer type"?

Shasha,

I'm really talking about someone laying hands on me. I'm happy to be prayed for. Sometimes I feel that even Christian healers pass on something of their own energy. In other words, I don't know how much of the healing energy is purely sourced from the Holy Spirit. I may be totally wrong. I'm just cautious.

I'm with you on the possessed/oppressed distinction.

thanks for the insights and recommendations. I will check out Franciss books. As far as my personal experience goes there were demons with names and demons of oppression such as fear and judgement and possible family generational links. It has certainly made me aware of the need to be careful of things so thats why I am wondering about the k awakening aspects of my calligraphy class, The basic princliple is of being aware of k energy and putting this into the calligraphy. As a practicing artist there are also similarities to the presentness of being in a creative act but here the "buddha" mind or beginners mind ie before a lot of preconceptions become apparent , is emphasized. im just having a few issues with whether working with that is a good or a bad thing. For me at the moment I feel that energy is neutral but can be potentially used wrongly. perhaps that assesment will change. I have friends who are accupuncturists, and so far, personally have no issues with this but I have to say that God is teaching me almost daily as I study the bible and learn obedience so perhaps im wrong...