Phil & Shasha,

You're welcome. It is good for me to share, not just because it can be helpful to others, but also because it helps me to see where I have been, what I have learned; establish/express what I believe in, where I will (and will not) stand and where I go from here. Yes...it helps to gain the inner distance from it.

I may have said the same thing about the Catholic Church's opinion on Reiki in the past. No. Let me strike that. I would have said the same thing, because I was lost/caught up in the reiki movement. Today, I whole heartedly agree with the opinion of the Church. Thank you, very much, for having shared the link to the paper, Phil. It was good to read it.

Yes, the ones who most need the help are, of course, the ones most seeking the healing. It is sad that many of those who profess to be healing helpers are actually, often, only perpetuating dynamics of abuse/codependency. I think a lot of what goes on is mere smoke and mirrors, furtherance of delusion. And, sadly, those professing to be healers are not conscious of the web of confusion they are in and pass on to others.

I have been one of these lonely and broken feeling persons. And, Lordy, Lordy! What I have learned in this phase of my journey! I am grateful that I am coming out of it all now, and my prayer is that God help me to help others to not become ensnared in similar nets of deception.

Thank you for your hope and prayers for me, Shasha. I do trust I will find deep peace and healing, for I am seeking now within/in the Body of Christ, no where else. It actually feels like a promise to me, made to me by Him long ago. And I am counting on that promise now, having that faith now, in Christ.

Kristi

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KristiMarie,

Just a quick BTW (by the way) message:

I was reading more from the book of Matthew last night, Chapter 10, where Jesus is charging his disciples to go out to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, to cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, etc., proclaiming that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand... As I got to verse 13 (Then if indeed that house is deserving, let come upon it your peace [that is, freedom from all the distresses that are experienced as the result of sin, as my Amp. bible expounds]), I thought, this is my experience now...and my heart prayed its thankfulness. I just wanted to share that here because you all are a part of that, a part of the reason for my growing peace, part of my cause for gratitude.

Sincerely,
Kristi

quote:

It is impossible to describe the ecstasy, bliss, "love" that I experienced during some of my energetic mergers with gurus. Nobody could ever, ever give up or pull away from such ecstasy! None of us is capable of saying 'no' to such a thing! And there are so many varieties of supernatural ecstasy--including erotic. Countless..endless... sublime! It's only by God's saving Grace that we are capable of turning away from such seductions. We must submit our wills entirely to Him and give Him permission to close the doors of all connections we've made with everything that is not of Him.

Even so, I've found there is wounding that remains, at least in my case. But I've come to deeply accept my past, all my mistakes, and know of God's redeeming love for me. And it helps me to deeply forgive myself as more and more layers of wounding have been revealed. As my personal sins and brokenness are tied up with my spiritual journey and choices, healing is an ongoing process intertwined with growing in holiness.

Hi Shasha,

Based on your story, I suspect that you have had more guru-type merger experiences than I have, but “merger” all together/or, with the whole, is something I have known well. I began writing about this, but it is part of my larger whole story which is too long for me to complete now, so I am saving it as a work in progress to be shared later.

I was quite merged with the healer (and Meera, by extension, I learned) and then with the guru AND the woman who initiated me into the guru. It was all, as you say, “extremely” seductive, ecstatic, erotic, otherworldly. All of it. I do relate. And there is a significant sense of power/satisfaction one feels in all of that. I will share more as time goes on. But I wanted to say, for now, that I find the seduction is criminal … in the sense that it robs one of one’s individual soul. I will not sell my soul nor be part of that which takes freedom from others. I agree that when one has been exposed to/experienced such ecstatic states, it is hard to move away from it. I kept trying to leave it at my heels, walk away from it, renounce it again and again. "My" mind and "my" heart was made, but I was struggling greatly against “it” which wanted to hold on to me. My way was not made easier until I began praying for Christ’s, The Father’s and Mother Mary’s help. I made an error, unaware. I lacked discernment. I have learned. It is not an error I will repeat! I do trust/believe God’s grace is sufficient.

Jesus… I believe his mission was to give life, to provide freedom from the wielders of the powers of seduction. I believe he highly respected individual (individuating) life.

I also search out my errors … and I am thankful for my analyst who (and my dreams that) help me greatly with this. And yes, like you say you do, I am learning to receive Christ’s Grace/God’s redeeming love for me. To not continue to berate myself with judgment for my errors, but to “go and sin no more.” I pray every day for His grace, for right thoughts and action and being…and I am seeing His works in me. For this, I am grateful.

There are a few pieces of scripture I am holding close: Psalms 103:12 - As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us; Hebrews 8:12 - For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more; and John 17:24 - Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

I will try to respond to your note to me in the "From Seeker to Saved" thread, tomorrow.

On not judging my self... That is a whole chapter of my life story in itself. I believe this is part of what Jesus came to deliver us from. This is another reason why I found the book, The Guru Papers so good ... because it shows us our inner authoritarian, too. I wept several times reading it.

Thank you, Shasha,
Kristi

Oh, no, I am unaware of Moira Noonan. Never heard of her before.

quote:

I was quite merged with the healer (and Meera, by extension, I learned) and then with the guru AND the woman who initiated me into the guru. It was all, as you say, “extremely” seductive, ecstatic, erotic, otherworldly. All of it. I do relate. And there is a significant sense of power/satisfaction one feels in all of that. I will share more as time goes on. But I wanted to say, for now, that I find the seduction is criminal … in the sense that it robs one of one’s individual soul. I will not sell my soul nor be part of that which takes freedom from others. I agree that when one has been exposed to/experienced such ecstatic states, it is hard to move away from it.

Kristi, I wonder if you and Shasha would be willing to try to pinpoint just what you think is the distortion going on, here. After all, bliss in the heart and the kinds of feelings you describe do seem very attractive.

My sense is that what's going on is a flow of energy from the follower of the guru to the guru then a return to the follower -- a cycling of energy through the guru, as it were. Swami Muktananda stated somewhere that the guru and the energy of the guru are one and the same. This was enough to keep me away from receiving shaktipat from a yogi during a time when I could have used a little help managing turbulent energies. I couldn't imagine another human being pure enough to not communicate something tainted, which is why I've stayed away from reiki and even physical massage. So could it be that intense flows of some kind of energy are being generated and these stimulate the chakras, producing the kinds of sensations that go with each? In the case of the heart, this would be loving feelings, which sounds very good, but isn't necessarily the same as spiritual love, which is an "attitude of the will."

Another confusion could be regarding the heart. The heart chakra is not the same as what Scripture means by the heart. When we open our hearts to God, what is implied is an entrusting openness that is a matter of the will and intellect -- a "yes" with our whole being, including a willingness to do the will of God. That's quite different from opening the heart chakra to God, or to a guru in a bhakti tradition. One can be heart-chakra-open without being Scriptural heart open, and even vice versa. The ideal is that the chakras, however one understands these, would open in response to faith in Christ, and I think that does, in fact, happen to many Christians.

quote:

Kristi, I wonder if you and Shasha would be willing to try to pinpoint just what you think is the distortion going on, here.

Yes, Phil, but I want to give it some more thought, first.

Kristi

quote:

My sense is that what's going on is a flow of energy from the follower of the guru to the guru then a return to the follower -- a cycling of energy through the guru, as it were.

I do think this is a very good description.

As I was being prompted to "get out" of the devotional practice, I was drawn to more thoroughly study what had happened (what I believed was still happening) between the healer and I. Because I never took a really good look at it, I believe it was still operative and accounted, at least in part, for why I entered into/continued with a like practice. She (the charismatic healer) herself had become an object of adulation for me - all bright and glowy with a countenance of the divine(?). The energy in her (which I came to learn was of Meera) sort of demanded this, as became apparent to me by the later images and voice that I shared visited after I ended the association (at least physically, at that point).

When I "looked" at it, I perceived a stream of energy that immediately felt, to me, to be vampiric… feeding, perpetuating itself, carrying me and the energy of my being along with it. This is why I say it is criminal. Imo, it is spiritual rape.

The way you describe it is apt, because it appears to be a circuit or looping of energy that others get plugged into by association - be that accomplished via physical contact, near proximity, mantra chanting and/or visualization with the intent to “connect” with said guru/figure.

In the case of the Amamchi, I found it highly seductive in that just being at retreat with her, I felt like I had the Goddess/Shakti/Kali dancing in me - literally, the energy that Ammachi herself embodies. This was extremely erotic. It grew to the point that I did not have to be with her to experience this.

And it was really no different with the healer, only I did not experience this dancing goddess type activity with her, more a “flowing” feeling energy, “seemingly” very feminine, which made it very attractive to me. Being energy sensitive (and not then clear about “me,” as an individual) made it all the easier for me to get pulled along.

I do think there is entity activity behind most of these gurus/spiritual preceptors and that this accounts for the intensity of the flow of energy that others get sucked into. Yes, get sucked into … because the cycling (circuiting, looping of energy) creates a vortex or whirlpool. I think these energy flows are made all the more stronger given larger numbers of devotional followers … this is why it can feel so powerfully seductive.

I think the distortion is that we mistake feelings of expansiveness (made possible by the “group” energy, which is kind of like a group orgasmic activity) as being God-like or divine, even love … when it is really just a manipulation of energy, our chakras and emotions...into a mass pool along with other worshippers of whatever guru/and the entities behind them.

quote:

In the case of the heart, this would be loving feelings, which sounds very good, but isn't necessarily the same as spiritual love, which is an "attitude of the will."

quote:

One can be heart-chakra-open without being Scriptural heart open, and even vice versa. The ideal is that the chakras, however one understands these, would open in response to faith in Christ, and I think that does, in fact, happen to many Christians.

This gives me much to contemplate, Phil. Yes, the intellect and the will must be engaged; we must maintain our individual consciousness and make the conscious choice to follow/abide/live by Scripture, a Christian life.

In these guru shakti bhakti movements, the free will is given over/taken by said spiritual preceptor. As with any cult movement, it becomes about mind control, controlling the will/energy/being of the individual.

What you said about massage struck an important chord in me, too. I used to go for massage quite frequently a few years ago. After a handful of years not going for massage, I went for one a few weeks ago…and came away feeling my massage therapist was with and within me. Really. That is how energy sensitive I am. A nice enough woman, Christian (Catholic) ... nonetheless, I didn't like feeling like I took her energy home with me.

Kristi

That is so funny...I just posted about the (now proverbial?) 'massage therapist' contamination issue on the other thread.

Seriously, what Kristi has said above in response of Phil's question is virtually exactly what I'd say...so thanks for doing the work for me...

God's peace and a beautiful night's sleep to you all, dear friends!

quote:

Originally posted by KristiMarie:
...I do think there is entity activity behind most of these gurus/spiritual preceptors and that this accounts for the intensity of the flow of energy that others get sucked into. ...I think the distortion is that we mistake feelings of expansiveness (made possible by the “group” energy, which is kind of like a group orgasmic activity) as being God-like or divine, even love … when it is really just a manipulation of energy, our chakras and emotions...

I'm sure there's entity activity behind these gurus and they're not hiding it.

It's not the love coming from God as described in Corinthians or one of the fruits of the Spirit as in Galatians. One way to tell this love is a deception is to look at the effect on a person's life. In my case this 'love' was a seduction away from my family as I was caught up and zoned out of the needs of those around me. Where I needed to be present to them to love them in day to day relating, I was seduced by the energy and deluded into thinking it was God calling me away from my family. So the fruit of that 'love' was destruction to my family. It's an energy which blinds one to reality.

It is so very true, Shasha, the seduction does blind one to reality. It did to me, for sure. It is interesting you mention love from God as described in Corinthians, because I was just thinking of some verse from Corinthians last night, and then reading your words this morning, am reminded of a dream I had in June of this year, which was one month before I began withdrawing from the guru affair. God was calling me back to "Him." I was laying in my bed, recalling (replaying) a dream memory when a string of words (quietly) entered my consciousness (definately not imagined by me) and they simply were, "A God who rules by the Corinthian Love law." Corinthians was my favorite book of the bible as a child.

Kristi

I walked away from my computer, having looked briefly at my dreams around the time frame of the one I just mentioned...and I began crying with a deeper realization - that it was the prayers of my analyst that (greatly) helped to lead me away from the guru affair. You are absolutely right Shasha, it does take turning it all over to God/Christ to become free of all of this. I am at a loss for words here right now. I am going to go pray, more.

Kristi

Great exchange, Shasha and Kristi. I think the sharing here has been very real and it's most helpful to be able to identify some of the dynamics that are distortions of authentic spiritual practice and growth. As Jesus said, it is indeed by the fruits that we will know whether the Holy Spirit is at work or some other spirit. Very difficult to tell sometimes, however; it can take awhile before these fruits become manifest.

One thing we can say for sure is that the ministry of the Holy Spirit doesn't bring about the kind of bondage to other spiritual leaders as has been described here. Nor does the Spirit disempower our choosing and use of reason, both of which are integral to our own spiritual health. Once we hedge even a little in those two areas, we become vulnerable to subjugating influences.

To expand the topic a bit, it would seem that healing ministries undertaken through exercising a genuine charism of the Spirit would be free from the contaminating influences that many experience with reiki, massage and other healing therapies. That's because a charism configures the healer in such manner that he or she is an agent of God's love -- so that it is actually Christ ministering in the Spirit through the healer. But just because one is doing healing work in a Christian ministry, it doesn't follow that the healer is operating under the influence of the Spirit. I know of several cases where people who have been "prayed over" came away with strong feelings of connection to the healer, sometimes lasting for years. Dynamics of shaktipat are alive and well in Christianity, especially in charismatic/pentecostal circles, and Christians are not immune from some of the negative consequences that accompany shaktipat experiences. Indeed, I am inclined to say that most of what people call being "baptized in the Spirit" entails shaktipat and even kundalini arousal, though this is all experienced in the context of Christian faith and the gift of the Spirit. There are none too few instances where the shaktipat phenomena become confused with the working of the Spirit, however.
- see http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbear.../char/more/bless.htm and other related links.
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCeVZ6e2T0E

Boy, o boy, I find this very disturbing. Watching that video you posted Phil, made me question several experiences I had years ago at an Assembly of God church. I was invited by a family member, so I guess you could say I was seeking because I accepted the invitation. It was that night that I prayed the sinners prayer, (for what that was worth) I have changed my view on that, but still think Jesus saw my heart and had compassion...

The church invited a traveling evangelist who was known to be a healer. I responded to an alter call, the healer prayed for me, and I fell to the floor, the next thing I knew I was laughing hysterically, I was aware that I was doing this, and remember thinking, that I should be embarrassed but wasn't. I was naive, I didn't know the Holy Spirit from the unholy spirit then... Makes me wonder now what influence I was under. Yikes. How does one discern?

I experienced several other dramatic movements inside of me during the time I attended there.

Then, all went quiet, it seemed the Lord was silent for years. I thought/guessed that He was teaching me to walk by faith and not by supernatural experiences, so I plodded along, my heart prone to wonder (old hymn) got myself into mess after mess church after church...

And here I am almost ready to run into the arms of Rome... I love (most of the) history, quiet & beauty of the Catholic church, but I am praying diligently about converting because I have jumped one too many times thinking: O, this is what the Lord wants...

Kristi: I have loved reading how Jesus Christ has pursued & wooed you back into Him alone...
Your words bring good tears... Bless His Holy name... Love, Gail

quote:

As Jesus said, it is indeed by the fruits that we will know whether the Holy Spirit is at work or some other spirit. Very difficult to tell sometimes, however; it can take awhile before these fruits become manifest.

One thing we can say for sure is that the ministry of the Holy Spirit doesn't bring about the kind of bondage to other spiritual leaders as has been described here. Nor does the Spirit disempower our choosing and use of reason, both of which are integral to our own spiritual health. Once we hedge even a little in those two areas, we become vulnerable to subjugating influences.

That is what happened to me, Phil. It was as though I was without my own personal reasoning, ability to objectify, or make self-determining choices. I was, as Shasha indicated, in "another zone."

And truly, it was sitting before my analyst (who is new to me as of this time last year) on a day when I perceived that she was speaking directly to this entity dynamic set up in me that I began to wake up to where I was at. I felt/experienced those moments as if the spirit that had become in me knew its days were over, hence the dream that came (I earlier shared) telling me I had a battle of light/dark occuring inside of me the last time I visited the guru on retreat - which was early this past July. So much of this story to tell, some day.

I think I have been/am certainly learning the fruits that have not been of Christ. And I pray that "He" continue to uproot any bad roots remaining in me.

Hello, Gail, and thank you for what you shared you see and feel as you follow my story. It is affirming. And, yes, Bless His Holy name!

Part of what I seem to be moving through now is determining/discerning the authenticity of that which is coming in my life now. Fair to say that given the degree of spiritual darkness I was in, I am a bit spooked about "Spirit(s)." I want to know that it is only Christ's Holy Spirit ministering to me.

Last night, as/after I read Shasha's note to me (about being energy sensitive and the need for prayers for protection) in the "From Seeker to Saved" thread, I felt a spirit come over me as I sat here at my computer. I questioned it, I prayed over it, asking Jesus and the Father to help me know if this was in fact their Holy Spirit. Your note really touched me, Shasha, as if telling me that, certainly, yes, I need to be very careful given the degree of my energy sensitivity. Having arrived home shortly after 6:00 AM this morning, I saw you had just posted the link to those prayers for me, writing to me no doubt at the same time I began weeping for The Father as I was driving home, saying my gratitude for the love and help and healing I am finding here at Shalom Place! And so, just looking at your brief note there in that thread caused more tears to pour from me.

And, oh, Gail, what is the "Jesus prayer" you referred to? I feel like I am just a baby Christian and I just want to be sure I don't come across and pray any loopy Jesus prayer.

And then, there's this that happened to me a few days ago: I was praying the Rosary on Sunday evening and I was not a second past the first decade when looking at the string of beads in my hand, I began weeping as I beheld first an image of my now passed Grandmother and then my own birth mother (as a child, in her communion dress with rosary beads in her hand). I felt a Holy Presence as I continued to look at this inner image of my grandmother. I wept gently, beautifully, thankfully, as I perceived what seemed to be Mother Mary telling/showing me how dear She was to my grandmother. It was as though I was seeing/feeling that my grandmother had built a store in heaven with Mother Mary. I don't know how else to describe this. Life was not easy for my grandmother, she knew much abandonment/hardship/neglect/abuse, which was passed onto my mother, which was passed on to me. And what seemed to be being revealed to me is how close my grandmother held Mother Mary to her heart, how deeply she did care even though she could not demonstrate it. Ah, I am weeping again. Maybe this belongs in another thread, but I'm just moved to share it as I write. It felt so very healing in a deep way to see this side of my grandmother that I did not know when young. It was as though I saw there was an inner world of beauty despite the hardships she endured and that were passed on to my mother (and hence, me). I was so moved, as though Mother Mary was showing me, "This is love," not those guru/healer types you were following before.

And, gosh, now I am crying more. I was baptised in the Catholic Church, Phil. I sent the church (Saint Monica's Parish in Carpentersville, Illinois) an email yesterday after talking to my mother. I did not think I was baptised because religion was not practiced in my home, or even talked about. We never went to Church, save a very short span of time when my siblings and I bussed out to a Lutheran church. I had continued my search for Jesus on my own as a child. My mother told me that I was in fact baptised in the Catholic Church as a baby, but I didn't yet really believe it. Having woke up this afternoon, I had a response from the church in my email, saying, "Yes, we have the records, where would you like them sent?" Then, I cried. This experience of seeing my grandmother's heart in such a deep way and learning that I was in fact baptised makes me happy/grateful in a deep way, helps to reveal the love present in my childhood despite its terrible difficulties.

I have read the Toronto article before. And the behaviors in that video do not seem healthy to me. I hope that those who just sat in the chairs watching did not eventually get "shakti(?)-zapped" with whatever entity was having hey-day there.

Most sincerely,
Kristi

quote:

Originally posted by KristiMarie:
... I felt a Holy Presence as I continued to look at this inner image of my grandmother. I wept gently, beautifully, thankfully, as I perceived what seemed to be Mother Mary telling/showing me how dear She was to my grandmother. It was as though I was seeing/feeling that my grandmother had built a store in heaven with Mother Mary. ...

I was so moved, as though Mother Mary was showing me, "This is love," not those guru/healer types you were following before.
...

That is so beautiful, Kristi. I was moved by your sharing this...Mother Mary is apparently answering the yearnings of your heart to know love. Thanks for sharing that you are crying-- cleansing, grateful tears.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KristiMarie: And, oh, Gail, what is the "Jesus prayer" you referred to? I feel like I am just a baby Christian and I just want to be sure I don't come across and pray any loopy Jesus prayer.


Kristi-The sinners prayer is a staple in (Protestant) Evangelical world, it is the ticket to eternal life. There is nothing wrong at all with the prayer itself, it is just the teaching that once you have said this prayer you are saved forever. "Once saved always saved," and perseverance doesn't matter. If you once walked the aisle to the alter to say this prayer, you were going to heaven...
It is a lovely prayer, so no worries on getting into something unchristian, I was writing out of my evangelical baggage, God is gracious and this prayer can be a starting point. I wish I had the time to say more, this is brief, for the record I hope I am not stepping on any toes here!

"The Sinners Prayer"
Heavenly Father I come to you in prayer asking for the forgiveness of my Sins. I confess with my mouth and believe with my heart that Jesus is your Son, And that he died on the Cross at Calvary that I might be forgiven and have
Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Father, I believe that Jesus rose from the dead and I ask you right now to come in to my life and be my personal Lord and Savior. I repent of my Sins and will Worship you all the day's of my Life!. Because your word is truth, I confess
with my mouth that I am Born Again and Cleansed
by the Blood of Jesus! In Jesus Name, Amen.


Colossians 1:22-23 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard...

Matthew 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.

Luke 22:32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

John 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples...

Acts 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Hebrews 3:14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.