I really need some help with this one. I'm not that smart and what do the new physics have to do with spiritual transformation. Venturing forth where angels fear to tread as Don Quixote on my donkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritjof_Capra http://www.spaceandmotion.com/...hy-Fritjof-Capra.htm

What's a standing wave? Is Jesus a wave or a particle? Pass my Quantum Physics for Dummies, please!

quote:

The Tao of Physics makes an implication that physics and metaphysics are both inexorably leading to the same knowledge. His works all share a similar subtext: that "there are hidden connections between everything".

He contributed to the screenplay for the 1990 movie Mindwalk, starring Liv Ullman, which was loosely based on his book, The Turning Point. This book was also the inspiration for a broad.

Hmm. Did I snip that quote right? Anyway, the way I see it, MM, as that we can sort of "zoom" into reality and see things in finer and finer detail. Sometimes this fine detail may give us hints of the large details. But an apple still tastes like an apple, whether or not you're looking at it under a microscope. That is, one can take a quiet walk somewhere, or spend some quiet time in a room alone, and just sort of "suck it all in" and "feel" reality. No need to know quantum physics to do that and it is certainly not anti-intellectual to say that you don't need quantum physics to understand life. You do need it, thought, to understand the interactions of particles at very small scales.

The ancient Greeks envisioned atoms. Buddha sensed that we are made out of star-stuff, and the bible says we aer made from the dust of the ground.
Some quantum realities are referred to in ancient asian texts.

You have to keep an eye on these New Agers, though,
as junk science creeps in an the attempt to wrest
the new physics to their political agendas.

Capra is very liberal and environmentalist in his worldview. I never finished The Tao of Physics, but I do have severl of Capra's works arriving soon. The favorite movie for this POV right now is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...Bleep_Do_We_Know%3F!

Capra is taken a bit more seriously than What the Bleep!? which features Ramtha, a 35,000 year old
being from Atlantis, who speaks through J.Z Knight
(Ramtha shares a website with David Hawkins, which
in my mind strains the credibility of the good doctor just a bit.)

More later, as I have several Capra books on the way.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

Re: What the Bleep

I'm still not quite sure just exactly what I saw or what the movie was about.

You have to keep an eye on these New Agers, though,
as junk science creeps in ans the attempt to wrest
the new physics to their political agendas.

I haven't read that much of that kind of stuff, MM. Just an article here and there. But I'm truly impressed by the creative ways that New Agers roll physics into their philosophy or religion and make it all sound so plausible. It's good fun, really, and harmless as long as one holds in one's mind the idea that, until you read a proper rebuttal of the work, to just assume that it's clever fantasy. That's how I read the Da Vinci Code. I didn't have my hands clenched in little fist of fury while reading it. It was fun to suspend disbelief and just go with it. Having done so, and then coming back to what one believes (sort of from the other side now), one might gain an insight or two on one's orthodoxy.

Scientists like Galileo have challenged orthodoxy before. "Orthodoxy" is subject to change. God never changes, but science may give us new insight from time to time. God has given us the instruments to uncover much of his creation, thoough some things will remain hidden forever from our sight. I like the feeling of awe and mystery. I like quantum physics and Hubble telescopes. Its an exciting time to be living in!

Scientists like Galileo have challenged orthodoxy before.

Yes, you're right. And good thing he did, too. I read something, or saw a documentary on him, that suggested it wasn't so much that he challenged orthodoxy. It's that he did it in an "in your face" Michael-Moore-like way. Truth is truth, sure. But politics is politics. I'm by no means an expert regarding Galileo. But I know a little bit more than the Kindergarten version (also doubles for the College version) of "Galileo challenges Church doctrine. Church freaks out. Squelches Galileo. Religion is evil." It's more complicated than that because when the Church is also government then a challenge to doctrine can be seen as a challenge to their authority to govern. So if one is a bit of a prick about it then they're going to feel the long arm of the law. Same thing in this day and age. Question PC orthodoxy in a very public way. See if the authorities say, "Well, gee. You may have a point there. Perhaps our beliefs are a bit rigid and we need to integrate and appreciate your point of view as well." Nope. They'll likely slap you down for challenging their power and nothing is more a challenge to someone's power than to question the beliefs that are largely responsible for giving them that power.

Quantum Physics shall be wedded to Intelligent Design in some way, shape or form. Capra weds it to
Shiva's Cosmic Dance, and Leonardo DaVinci. After all, Capra resides in Berkeley, and piggy backs his science on a New Age wave of Green Politics, Gaia, and anti-globalism.
Listen carefully for the sound of Leonardo rolling over several times in his grave,wedding tux and all, but the Secret Decoder ring comes with the popcorn at the premier of Davinci Code, the motion picture.

Still, he is a very learned man and restores my faith that a new scientific paradigm is unfolding,
and if Shiva does not pan out, Jesus just might get a crack at it outside the environs of the hallowed halls of Berkeley or the environmental
green and yellow meme presentations Capra give to
forward-thinking capitalists.

http://www.fritjofcapra.net/shiva.html

http://www.fritjofcapra.net/leonardo.html

he's_got_the_whole_wide_quanta_in_his_hands.com

Quantum Physics shall be wedded to Intelligent Design in some way, shape or form.

Making predictions of this nature is incredibly precarious, especially considering we apparently don�t know what 90% of the universe consists of. (It apparently consists of what they call "dark energy" and "dark matter". And I�m a bit surprised nobody has challenged the obvious racist undertones of such labels. Surely they should refer to these as "detection-challenged" energy and "detection-challenged" matter).

I think we will discover more about nature but I think the most profound things we will discover is that there are a series of fundamental limits beyond which we can not go. Quantum physics is the harbinger of this.

The Dark Side of the Force is strong in William Bennett, who was chastened by George Bush for suggesting on his radio program a link between increasing abortion rates among the "dark matter" population and reduced crime rates. Put that in your "Book of Virtues," Bill. Naughty, Naughty

"Fritjof Capra, for example, has argued that the world's present social, economic, and environmental crises all stem from the same fractured worldview:

'Our society as a whole finds itself an an [unprecedented]crisis. We can read about is numerous manifestations every day in the newspapers. We have high unemployment, we have an energy crisis, a crisis in health care, pollution and other environmental disasters, a rising wave of violence and crime, and so on. The basic thesis of this book [The Turning Point] is that these are all different facets of one and the same crisis, and that crisis is essentially a crisis of perception. It derives from the fact that we are trying to apply the concepts of an outdated worldview--- the mechanistic worldview... --- to a reality that can no longer be understood in terms of those concepts. We live today in a globally interconnected world, in which biological, psychological social, and environmental phenomena are all interdependent. To describe this world appropriately we need an ecological perspective...'" -- Ken Wilber, Sex, Ecology, Spirituality.

As much as I admire the former Secretary of Education, I would recommend some meditation classes, so he might feel more "a part of" rather than "apart from."

Wilber speaks of holons. Everything is a whole/part of everything else, all the way up and all the way down. The illusion of separateness is just that, an illusion, and not the way God experiences the world.

Jesus knew all about the New Physics, right down to the part about raising the dead, walking on water, walking through walls, raising the dead and feeding the multitudes.

multitudes.com

MM, check out this link. Apparently, Bennett was just drawing a rhetorical analogy to say that abortion is morally wrong no matter if there could be positive social consequences for its widespread use.

Phil,

Thanks for the clarification. I like Bill Bennett, and recommend his books:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...486-5511946?v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...6486-5116486-5511946

I admit to jumping the gun here, and should verify
the front page handed to me by Compuserve every time I go online. It just goes to show how quickly
the bloggers process incoming information. This is a good thing!

America is addicted to money, and many conservative icons are presenting with addictions.

Abortion is about love of money and pleasure. Infanticide and abortion have been practiced since ancient times for this very reason. Many times the children were offered up to a diety representing pleasure and power, something we can't get enough of in this culture. Unfortunately, in our mad rush for these things, we have done away with thirty million potential taxpayers.

Getting back to Fritjof Capra, his merging of the new physics with Eastern philosophy exposes many blind spots which exist in our culture,and in the minds of liberals and conservatives alike. I have four of his books here and this will no doubt be an interesting and productive thread.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

I can sympathize with Rush Limbaugh, who appears to be smoking again, (cigars this time, as a good conservative ought to) I got onto cigars through
some of my conservative freinds, who looked really cool smoking those $12 Habanas, but I started inhaling them and they made me sick, so now I'm back on cigarettes. Why help Castro's economy, when I can aid the American tobacco lobby?

It's good to have a laugh at myself. Bennett gambles, I'm an alky. The proverbial pot and kettle.

As I'm holding The Book of Virtues right here in my nicotine-stained fingers, I notice that it is chock full of morality, which has been progressively removed from our culture by well meaning "progressives."

Chapter One: Self-Discipline

Two: Compassion

Three: Responsibility

Four: Freindship

Five: Work

Six: Courage

Seven: Responsibility

Eight: Honesty

Nine: Loyalty

Ten: Faith

I also notice that Bennett includes civil rights leaders Booker T. Washington, Martin Luther King,
Mary Wollestonecraft, Susan B. Anthony, Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson, so he is no stranger to liberalism in its classic context. There is even one page devoted to Chuang Tzu's wisdom, so, I see that even Bill Bennet is beginning to get the Tao, which proves to me that The Tao of Physics is right on topic for where we presently find ourselves in space and time.

may_the_force_of_virtue_B_with_U@leading_index.net

What have I stepped into here ? Phil I think that abortion is wrong. Life begins at conception. The problem is "who" is going to pay for the little bugger. And whoever you hire, are they going to actually raise a functional human being? Right now it is easier to dump the little begger. Or, plus the little beggers body parts are fruitful to science . There is money in farming "fetuses". Take a part of a little beggers pituitary gland "filled with life" and put it in an old person's pituitary gland and miracles happen! Hey Brad, the gift of the rich, and the poor, farming "fetuses" for money. acaveyogi

Guys I love this subject! I have a darn decent connection to the "Intuitive Mind". Thousands of hours of practice. The "Physics" of this above stuff is an interesting "question". Just for fun formulate me a question. And lets talk physics Love, acaveyogi

This takes in the whole paradigm of Western thought,
from abortion/sexuality to feminism to nuclear weapons and environmentalism, corporatism, social organization and economics. Something to really push everyone's bottons.

Capra is very orange and green meme, and IMO Ken Wilber has gone somewhat beyond this. The Web of Life, 1996 is reminiscent of Silent Spring, which some are saying is the most important book of the last half century. Opponents have denounced the author as everything from a fraud to a lesbian to a communist. Oh, what fun...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Carson

http://www.silentspring.org/newweb/about/rachel.html

http://www.rachelcarson.org/

http://www.ecotopia.org/ehof/carson/index.html

I picked up a first edition copy in an out-of-the- way coffee shop/bookstore for only three bucks, and am tickled to death by my new found green thumb and spirit.

Ok, so call me a tree-hugger and somewhat of a sappy sapling.

DDT_is_4_the_birds@greenparty.org

"This coming century will be the century of complexity." --Stephen Hawking

http://www.santafe.edu/

http://www.comdig.org/

http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~mr...data/complexity.html

For once I relish being a cluster thinker rather than a linear thinker, even if it does make me difficult to understand. Enneagram nines and sevens will prosper in the Brave New World. Not to worry, as some of you fives out there can do it too.

complexsystems.org

quote:

Originally posted by acaveyogi:
[qb] What have I stepped into here ? Phil I think that abortion is wrong. Life begins at conception. The problem is "who" is going to pay for the little bugger. And whoever you hire, are they going to actually raise a functional human being? Right now it is easier to dump the little begger. Or, plus the little beggers body parts are fruitful to science . There is money in farming "fetuses". Take a part of a little beggers pituitary gland "filled with life" and put it in an old person's pituitary gland and miracles happen! Hey Brad, the gift of the rich, and the poor, farming "fetuses" for money. acaveyogi [/qb]

Questions about who is going to pay for raising a child are legitimate and ought to occur in advance to people who are having unprotected sex. But once the conception takes place, as you've noted, it's a whole other ballgame, and the right of the individual to live takes precedence over all else, including (especially!) consequentialist arguments like the profit that can be derived from their tissues. So old people with bad pituitaries will just have to find another resource, and at least be glad they've had a chance to get old (in comparison to the aborted fetus).

Ok Michael Complexsystems? How many levels of related (in some sense of the word "related") logic lines can you run in your mind, in all directions at once and not get lost? And Is that "cluster", "Linear", or a combination of both. In my experience all of reality is one big cluster made up of related linears. From there it is just a matter of what level you are investigating. A small sphere inside of a larger sphere inside of a larger sphere inside of a larger sphere and so forth in both directions and each sphere is a level.

Creativity is the ability to take one or more levels and completely mix things up and then put thinks back together in some sort of a functional way that is different than the origional. And in an ideal world more functional than the origional.

So Michael how does "Creativity" fit into your cluster hypothisis. Creation has 2% creativity of its own (crap happens no reason). And that doesn't include the "creativity" of individuals that reside "in" your cluster mathematics. acaveyogi

Take a part of a little beggers pituitary gland "filled with life" and put it in an old person's pituitary gland and miracles happen! Hey Brad, the gift of the rich, and the poor, farming "fetuses" for money. Acaveyogi

I�m not sure I understand the question/observation, Caveyogi. It�s my understanding that stem cells from the patient�s own tissues are proving to work better than stem cells from fetuses. But even if this was not the case, this does not make moral the practice of farming fetuses in order to keep people alive longer.

I can�t say that I keep up on the latest medical research. It�s certainly possible that stem cells extracted from fetuses are proving more effective�if only in certain types of treatments. But facts are especially difficult to come by regarding this issue because of all the noise. Those who support a "women�s right to choose" look at the fetal stem cell issue as an ally. It�s as if they�re saying, "See�we�re not just killing nameless lumps of tissue, we�re saving people�s lives!" I certainly wouldn�t look to the left for guidance on this issue because, as usual, they have too much of their self-identity wrapped up in it. It�s as if this identity needs constant reinforcement lest it wither away and die in the light of reason�as, I think, it surely would without constantly being reinforced with shovelfuls of rationalizations and self-deceptive demagoguery.

Hi Brad

Brad wrote:

quote:

as, I think, it surely would without constantly being reinforced with shovelfuls of rationalizations and self-deceptive demagoguery.

How come come when I entered into this topic nobody said. "Hi acaveyogi, welcome to this topic!"? Never mind, I am sure that your answer would create a "Transformational experience" in my "Wa"

Brad, first of all your argument is equally as valid as mine is, on the surface. If we are going to abort "fetuses" anyway, then why are they not put to constructive use. Traditionally all life is sacrificed, for whatever reason, to maintain life. A case could and is constantly being made for the lifes of cows, pigs, chickens, horses, dogs, cats, all living creatures that are raised and butchered for food. Farming!

It turns out that you can implant a bit of a fetuses youthful pituitary gland into the pituitary gland of an older person and miracles happen for awhile. The person becomes more youthful and things like altimers and parkinson's and other disorders just go away, for awhile. This has nothing to do with stem cell, it is bascically organ trans plant. With this procedure The actor Michael J. Fox would get better. He is for fetal research. President Reagon would have gotten better, his wife is for fetal research.

There are hundreds of abortions a year. And hundreds of people could be could be helped in a significant way by just one of their body parts. And science doesn't even know why it works.

Oh and there is this, the physical immortality people are also interestested in this Medical science discovered this medical phenomenon a while back and then everything got hushed up. And the U.S. congress passed a law against this procedure by out lawing fetal research.

You need a new kidney? If you have the money you can go to China and they will go out and shoot a condemed prisoner and give you his kidney. He was going to die anyway. And it is their country and their doctors. Money has nothing to do with it. They are saving lives.

Anyway Brad, I am against "Farming" fetuses for their body parts. And I am sure that China wouldn't shoot somebody in the back of the head just for their kidneys to make money. acaveyogi

John, I'm pretty sure you were welcomed to the forum when you first came. Generally, we do not keep welcoming people to every topic they choose to participate in thereafter. Do other forums do that?

It turns out that you can implant a bit of a fetuses youthful pituitary gland into the pituitary gland of an older person and miracles happen for awhile. The person becomes more youthful and things like altimers and parkinson's and other disorders just go away, for awhile. This has nothing to do with stem cell, it is bascically organ trans plant. With this procedure The actor Michael J. Fox would get better. He is for fetal research. President Reagon would have gotten better, his wife is for fetal research.

I don't think any of this is true, except for M. J. Fox and Nancy Reagan being for fetal research. The damage to the brain done by Alzheimers is irreversible -- at least in present understanding. As my mother has this disease and has now deteriorated to a stage akin to infancy, I've kept up with the literature on this and there's just nothing out there yet that can arrest or reverse the disease. It can be slowed through certain interventions -- none of which involve fetal brain implants -- but that's about it.

So if you have any hard core evidence to support the statement you've made above, I'm all ears. The world is all ears.

Oh and there is this, the physical immortality people are also interestested in this Medical science discovered this medical phenomenon a while back and then everything got hushed up. And the U.S. congress passed a law against this procedure by out lawing fetal research.

What procedure are you talking about? Fetal research isn't outlawed at all; federal funding of embryonic stem cell lines is, but there are states and agencies funding it. And what's the immortality dimension?

John, you've probably discovered that people around here don't accept just anything anyone says because of guru or yogi status. I respect the discipline that is implied in that attainment, and the wisdom concerning energy and consciousness that usually comes with it. But there is a limit to the kind of competence that gurus have; scientific and political information falls outside of those boundaries, imo.

How come come when I entered into this topic nobody said. "Hi acaveyogi, welcome to this topic!"?

Hi, Caveyogi, welcome to this topic.

If we are going to abort "fetuses" anyway, then why are they not put to constructive use.

If the fetuses signed some sort of organ donor form then I�d be all for it. But we run into ethical problems otherwise.

Traditionally all life is sacrificed, for whatever reason, to maintain life. A case could and is constantly being made for the lifes of cows, pigs, chickens, horses, dogs, cats, all living creatures that are raised and butchered for food. Farming!

Life feeds on life. It�s the nature of being. However, as humans we have the ability to understand morality at a higher level. For animals, at the very least they should not unduly suffer. A case can be made for vegetarianism and I think it�s a good case.

This has nothing to do with stem cell, it is bascically organ trans plant. With this procedure The actor Michael J. Fox would get better. He is for fetal research. President Reagon would have gotten better, his wife is for fetal research.

I doubt that�s the case. If you have some evidence to back that claim up then great.

Oh and there is this, the physical immortality people are also interestested in this

I think an experienced actuary could show that this is near impossible. Even if we could be guaranteed a continually healthy body, accidents would eventually get us.

You need a new kidney? If you have the money you can go to China and they will go out and shoot a condemed prisoner and give you his kidney. He was going to die anyway. And it is their country and their doctors. Money has nothing to do with it. They are saving lives.

Sounds like you�re playing devil�s advocate here so I�m not sure what I can add to that.

Brad I am running the Devils advocate, but then also, you are too ! Your's and my conversation in this topic is one of the major "moral" controversities (that word didn't fit in my speller ) of your's and my time, as humans running compassion for mankind and all living things. You see Brad, if you had an opportunity to create a copy of you for body parts, but its brain was distroyed in a way that "it" was just body parts to be harvested, so that you could extend "your life span", would you? No "You" wouldn't! But others would. And others would catch you in a dark ally and steal your body parts if they could.

Science is at an interesting point and you and I as a part of humanity, in this little spot of the internet, are dicussing the options of medical science and the potiential directions that we as moral humans, are willing agree to allowing science to go. acaveyogi

You see Brad, if you had an opportunity to create a copy of you for body parts, but its brain was distroyed in a way that "it" was just body parts to be harvested, so that you could extend "your life span", would you?

No, you're right. I wouldn't go for that. It sounds too crude. If that's the direction medical science goes in then that's not a world one would want to live forever in. It sounds like a world that not only has abortion on demand but has drive-ins built just for that purpose. A civilized future is one that has me sticking my hand into some kind of Star Trek-like device in which the severed finger is grown back in just minutes.

"This coming century will be the century of complexity." --Stephen Hawking

I see your Hawking, MM, and raise you a Maxwell.

"The first processes, therefore, in the effectual studies of the sciences, must be ones of simplification and reduction of the results of previous investigations to a form in which the mind can grasp them." -- J.C. Maxwell, On Faraday's lines of force