So are you saying that the end result of inner work is to come to the end of ourselves, and to rely on grace to bring us through?That sure makes sense to me, and if the wholeness doesn't come in this lifetime, it will still surely come, in ways we can not fathom.
I get so easily discouraged with myself, and I have to remind myself never to underestimate the power of Christ, and to pray for openness and honesty.

quote:

Originally posted by w.c.:
...My bias regarding evil is simply that, until one can really sense inside the body, and touch wounds, which we all have, with awareness, and listen and let them unfold, it is likely we are projecting these shadows as evil. ....

I do see the important insight here, w.c. and this is a major pitfall in discerning evil vs. projecting our unconscious, especially in folks who must rigidly defend fragile ego structures.

However, I also see that there are at least two other dynamics we could consider on this topic:

1) as we've mentioned, there's the interaction of our own pathology which attracts or is exploited by external, supernatural evil.

2) one may be so focussed on their pathology or inner world that they may attribute a psychological effect to what is more accurately a supernatural evil. Here, I don't necessarily mean the 'devil' per se, an entity with a will, but some twisted, dark energy that can cause psychological distress. so, the opposite of what you say above can also be true for some people at some times.

I've seen this many times as evidenced by the instant relief from emotional distress that people sometimes get from deliverance prayer.

While praying for a woman at the MacNutt School of healing prayer, I witnessed her experience instant relief of long-standing anxiety and sense of worthlessness when my prayer partner commanded that these 'spirits' be gone in the Name of Jesus. As soon as he spoke those words, I felt a crashing down of Power so intense, it almost knocked me off my chair and I nearly shouted. Waves of Power hit me several times as the heavens opened up over my head and poured over me. This woman said she felt a hole was blown open from her neck upward and all the anxiety suddenly lifted off of her. The next morning, she looked like a different person. I had to go interview her about what happened, and she confirmed that the anxiety was still gone and that she felt something had lifted off her head.

One time, I was on a retreat with a friend. The first night I felt a strange oppression over me. It was a subtle sense of being down. There were no specifics attached to it, no thoughts or feelings or conflicts which I could identify as connected. After a full day of this, I finally decided to share my burden with my friend. Without asking her to do this, she lifted her hand over in my direction, about 5 feet away, and said a tired, undramatic prayer, something like "Lord, set her free of this thing." Suddenly I felt two powerful explosions of energy erupt in front of me and I FELT something was literally broken off of me. I felt completely, instantly relieved of this oppression and refreshed. This was not the placebo effect or some merely psychological shift. I slept great that night and awoke with a keen interst in the reason for my being on retreat, which had been crushed by that weird oppression.

Another time I was driving in the car with a relative. We were heading to pick up groceries for a family picnic. She shared about a recent development that deeply disturbed her; she had begun having a number of emotional problems but was especially frightened by what sounded to me like near visual hallucinations. As she talked about this, I knew I wanted to pray against this thing, and a part of me thought, "Wait till she stops the car and ask if you can lay hands on her to pray." However, I was so seized with a kind of righteous anger at this thing that I just reached over to touch the back of her head and words of deliverance were just gushing out of me. As I spoke, the car suddenly filled up to overflowing with a tremendous Power. It was God's Power. Right through the metal roof of the car, the Power crashed over me and I kept right on going, speaking against everything she had said that was troubling her. A year later, this person reported no return of those particular symptoms since that day.

So in these instances, what manifested as a seemingly emotional problem, turned out to have a supernatural cause, an evil force which is banished in the Name of Jesus. Of course, some go too far with this thinking, attribute any disturbing stirring of anger, lust, hatred, etc. to the devil, and stop short of examining their inner worlds for unsavory impulses and pain that is important to acknowledge as psychological. This is the problem that many of you have pointed out in some religious circles.

However, in some cases, attributing emotional pain to purely psycholgical factors is wrong and we are missing supernatural evil (which may be inner or external or both). And especially in energy sensitive folks, as it seems you all are, this can be a tricky disernment issue.

It seems that learning this kind of discernment is a long process which requires being open to learning from our mistakes and intimately tied to our maturation--both psychological and spiritual. Thank God who teaches us who are eager to learn, humble, and want to grow in love.

Dear friends, Mt., Stephen, bdb, w.c. & Phil,
I appreciate all that you have shared above concerning your experiences on this subject.

Hi Group:
Don't know if this is the correct forum for
this question so please bear with me.

Is The Sacred Heart of Jesus in Union
with The Immaculate Heart of Mary a physically
experienced experience within the Traditional Mystic Christian Tradition?

Thank you

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mary Sue,

I've never heard it put that way, Sue. Have you a reference?

Maybe this deserves its own topic, if you'd like to continue the discussion.

w.c. - "letting the longings untwist and re-emerge in the heart".

That's a great insight and a wonderful expression of the insight, w.c.

Lately, I've been experiencing lust/desire as a pain in the chest area, a real twisting in the heart which feels like anger, but I'm not angry, and which I'm able to watch and let pass to some extent.

This may not be exactly what you are referring to but it shows how psycho-sexual woundedness finds expression in the heart.

So we relate to the hidden reactive part as a defense against the overwhelm of the woundedness, and being present to this is as important as attention to the wound itself.

I'm starting to get it without actually realising what this reactive part might be in myself. I'm also slightly unnerved by the energetic bonding in my own psyche and how it might relate/react to these wounds and their emergence, which is where the complexity of the issues regarding occult attachments to psychic wounds gets a bit beyond our ken and can only be worked out through the Holy Spirit.

I do know that acting out the yearning, as you put it, stimulates the occult attachment and leads to an infusion of malevolence, and that it's therefore necessary to allow these wounds to emerge and transform in the grace of God's healing, with a kind of abandonment and tearful surrender that feels like the end of oneself. Anything else is just unbearable suppression. Easier said . . .

quote:

Originally posted by samson:
... the complexity of the issues regarding occult attachments to psychic wounds gets a bit beyond our ken and can only be worked out through the Holy Spirit.

. . .

Hey, Stephen. I agree with this point.

I'm moved by and so sorry to hear of the struggles you've shared here. I pray that you are set free of occult attachments, and I am asking the Father to send the Holy Spirit to bring about your deep healing.

BTW, I can see by your picture that your Momma really adored you, the wee little boy.

Thanks Shasha!

Let me say too that things are a lot better. There has been a slow, gradual healing and deliverance which has gone in tandem with purification. God knows what He's doing!

BTW - Got a good wee maw there n her wee boays noo a big lump ae a lad .

[QUOTE]Originally posted by samson:
Thanks Shasha!

Let me say too that things are a lot better. There has been a slow, gradual healing and deliverance which has gone in tandem with purification. God knows what He's doing!
[QUOTE]

Yes, He does, and we can be grateful that despite our missteps, He will truly "work all things to good for those who love Him."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by w.c.:
.. . . but there is also near the core, in this, a kind of grief, knowing that real love isn't really being experienced, regardless of how saturated we are with bliss. For me, I knew I was just becoming more selfish, and there was always a kind of emptiness in my heart, regardless of how many ravishingly blissful events occured. My heart wasn't really being dilated in the painful way where true sorrow for sin and wounding of others is awakened. I knew I wasn't loving others for their own sake, but for my own pleasure and convenience, however rarified it was....

It seems the more we have suffered attachment disorder as children, the more prone we are to seek mood-altering experiences that numb us to the pains of conscience, as this numbing serves our sense of entitlement.

...QUOTE]

Thanks for taking the time to share more of where you're coming from here, w.c. Yes, the emotional abuse I suffered as a child clearly left me vulerable to seeking this addictive, seductive kind of energy also. I remember going into mini, self-induced catatonic-like trances as a little girl and then again in college. I suppose they were moments of dissociation that I'd learned to enjoy to defend against a harsh and lonely environment. The kundalini and yoga came alongside to support this tendency already in me to check out of this world, so to speak. And yes, being a mom is an excellent context for receiving needed "wake-up" calls as to what loving is really about, how deeply broken we are despite mood alterations/bliss. In fact, I was sitting in the semi-lotus position one day recently and I began to slip in what I was begining to feel like samhadi-like state. I was actually offended by this thing and said, "Get out of here!" recognizing that there is a well-worn illusive path to peace that I wanted to never travel again...so, yes, for me, it's a kind of grief at the waste of time/energy of that path.

Speaking of brokenness, I have to check out of SP for a while to attend to some challenges that have come my way.

Bless you, in our Lord,
Shasha

I wish you well, and will keep you in my prayers, and others probably will also.

Hi Shasha -Thank you (and Phil, w.c., and all) for taking the time to write about these things. It's very much appreciated, and you will be in my prayers as well.

I originally found Shalom Place because of a discussion of Eckhart Tolle on an equine forum; I wasn't looking for anything more than a Christian review of his books. But I am amazed at the richness here--it's profoundly helpful, and I am deeply thankful.

Hello,

Like Ariel Jaffe I was looking for a Christian perspective on Eckhart Tolle. I don't want to ramble on but in a nut shell I have been touched beyond words by y'all...I don't believe it was an accident that I stumbled onto this web site, the wisdom here has spoke volumes to my heart and reawakened my sleeping love for Jesus. Thank-You! You are precious. Gail

AJ and G:

Thanks for your support, kind words, and mostly silent fellowship. Feel free to post as you wish. Phil has created a good place for all seekers.

Hi All,

I've been away from Shalomplace for a while but have wanted to post about something that happened about 3/4 weeks ago.

It was during the time that this discussion thread was very active and I had been thinking about my past experiences and wondering whether I would ever come to any conclusions regarding my experiences of evil spirit/woundedness projected as evil.

Well, one evening after spending some time with a very close and spiritual friend I went home and climbed into bed. As I closed my eyes images of demons and monstrous faces started flashing in my mind.

My first instinct was to try to suppress or reject the images, to drive them out of my mind. But instead I thought to myself, let me experiment a little here. I could not bring myself to show love to the images, but, I did try to center my love on Christ and simply create an attitude of acceptance of these images. Shortly after doing this I began to see a vortex/tornado of light begin to swirl in my mind's eye. This swirling light caught up the images within it. Every few seconds the images would be thrown out of the swirling light and appear at the front of my mind. But instead of being scary or horrible these images appeared in pairs and were kissing or hugging each other. This continued for a while and then the images and the light were gone and I fell asleep.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: w.c.,

Since his name came up on the other thread, I've been reading up on Mike Shreve. I'm adding him to this thread of conversion stories. Check out his testimonly on the Sid Roth show in the clip below. It's quite an amazing story of how intercessory prayer can change lives.

He appears very genuine, simple, and quite intelligent in this interview. I don't hear much about what he makes of kundalini since his conversion except to suggest that it is demonic. I do wonder how he'd react to some of our discussion on kundalini energy as a natural, internal force. I'm tempted to contact him directly and see if he's open to discussing it with me/us. Yeah, I can be bold like that, why not?

http://www.tangle.com/view_vid...6c5018171cca8f8dbc5f

Be bold, Shasha.

Yes, I second Ariel's encouragement.

I listened to the presentation as well and he does seem a really good guy. Glad to hear that he's recognized the distinction between the way of Christ and the way of enlightenment spirituality that kundalini points toward. I don't think the latter is a bad thing, as you all know, and there are no doubt many who pursue it with the best of intentions. Still, it is different from Christian spirituality as it isn't really able to resolve the issues inhering from our fallen nature. But neither is psychotherapy, exercise, good nutrition and a whole lot of other kinds of disciplines that are good in themselves unless pursued for the wrong reasons.

Let us know how it goes, Shasha.

And happy new year, everyone!

quote:

Dear Phil,

There are bhaki(love)yogas / traditions that worship the divine in relational ways and have no problem moving between enlightenment, in which they become completely one with the Goddess, for instance, AND recognize her as GOD and experience themselves as one with God through enlightenment.

These folks will argue that their mystical union with God (non-dual awareness) AND their love relationship with the divine co-exist, and will argue that Christ is just another name for kundalini shaki or Krishna or the Feminie Divine.

I don't deny that they are *in relationship* with a supernatural energy...in fact, I experienced this merger myself when I was initiated into a powerful Kali worship tradition. Here they equate kundalini exactly with the Goddess Kali and this is GOD and you too can become one with God/Goddess if you invite her to live inside you. They emphasize that kundalini is the same as the Holy Spirit, Chi, etc. and deny the unique mission of Christ.

This part of the discussion seems appropriate on this thread because my point is that worshiping gods/goddesses, even as the energy of kundalini, is a false god.

Why? because Christ and the Holy Spirit is not kundalini or the dieties associated with kundalini energy. Nor is Christ the goddess Kali; nor is He Shiva or Shakti...His name is not Krishna...it's more than the names of God that are different--it's the source to which the names refer.

I know this is quite an old piece of conversation, but what Shasha says here is what happened to me. I was intiated into this merger with Ammachi where I was to see her as the Goddess/God/Kali incarnate...and I was to understand it as enlightenment.

This was all highly seductive. And no, none of it was Christ or the Holy Spirit.

I was operating under an assumption that what I thought was "love" was of Christ, but this was far from Christ or Holy.

There is much good information, insight and affirmation to be gained from the discussions on the forum. I am glad to be back.

Kristi

Continuing here now from the last post I made in this thread.

A few days ago, I found myself thinking/feeling I would like to send a letter to the woman who initiated me in the Goddess worship. I'd ended communications with her on an angry note and thought I would try to redeem my angry actions.

It didn't go over well. As I was writing to her, I felt the energy of she and the guru filling me. And so have been working to clear myself of that again. I am sorry I sent the letter. I will NOT make the same mistake again. I had a huge mother projection with this woman ... and the childhood wounding there was speaking.

It is coming clearer to me, now, how much influence they had over me, how much I opened myself to them, how much authority I'd given to them. The title of this thread is most apt: "False Gods." I have been having mind impressions that are of their intent, not my own, of this I am sure. It is their will to control. I've questioned myself (before, and again, now), how much of this is my projection, my own shadow. I am sure I have my piece, but this that I have felt, before and now, is NOT all mine, I know.

The day before yesterday, I woke from sleep, and felt an orgasm trying to grip me again. Nothing like they used to when I was being devotional, yet it was there. And now, even as I write, I feel like I have something in my solar plexus that needs getting out...them.

I am seeing more clearly how hugely seductive it is.

I am also aware that one of the reasons I have not talked more of it is because I have felt like I was "not supposed to," have felt afraid to, what, "betray" them. Hogwash.

Oh, and this. I shared here somewhere on Shalom Place that I had the experience of the Lady Bug symbol and flowers springing up in my womb one day. When I sent the letter, I visited her website. I observed a tote bag she made/weaved. On it was a "lady bug waiting for spring." It is not just my imagination. I feel sure the connection was not severed, hence my experience. I was as much merged with her as the guru. In fact, I am not sure I know the difference between the two, as she is completely merged with the guru.

I feel so regretful, remorseful, like I've a chest-full of tears to release in prayer. I want my life back.

Kristi

Hi Kristi, I visit Shalom Place often and have benefited so much from reading about the experiences of others. After reading your last post and seeing some similarities I wanted to share some of my own journey here.

Okay, so now I'm faced with how to condense what I want to share into a few paragraphs. I became involved with a group whose head guru misused his powers. How my journey brought me to cross paths with them is a long story, not meaningful for this portion of what I want to share. I encountered this group only briefly because through them the kundalini was stirred up and I was not prepared for this, had no knowledge of what was happening to me and they were of no help. I was deeply afraid, withdrew from them and dealt with what was happening to me the best I could. Found online help about kundalini. So grateful for internet. Shalom Place and Phil's book on kundalini helped tremendously.

It's hard to put into words for what I'm sharing happened over several years time. Briefly, each time in my life when I felt a deep longing for God, kundalini became active and this guru or group would appear in my life in some way, either contact from someone in the group or just an inner realization of this guru's presence. Either way, I began to feel terror. I prayed so earnestly for God to help me, for Jesus to protect me from them. I just couldn't understand why it happened continually. Why as soon as I longed so deeply for my Beloved, this group would appear. Each time, I was so terrified of a repeat experience that all I knew to do was to back off from so much prayer, try to find something to occupy my mind, to calm the energy down.

This happened many times until finally, I could no longer deny that God was bringing this to me. Each time I longed for Him in a profound way, this happened, something of this group would appear. The last time, I told God I would face them but I needed help. I didn't know what He wanted me to do. Somehow He gave me Trust. Kundalini was really moving in me, I felt drawn to the guru's web site. I went there, terror was gripping me so that my body was shaking as if I had uncontrollable chills. As I looked at this man's picture, I prayed for Jesus' help. Then a sorrow from within me began building for the hatred I felt for this man. I could see that I hated him for all the harm he had caused me, the years of fear, confusion and dysfunction that became my life, for his activating kundalini prematurely, an energy I knew nothing about. Finally, the sorrow was overwhelming and I verbally said, "I'm so sorry". At that moment my heart opened (I literally felt a block like a damn open) and God's love POURED in, this energy was felt throughout my body. As this was happening, I felt a strong jerk in my solar plexus and I knew I was free. I cried and cried with thanksgiving. Peace consumed me for days.

I finally understood the reason each time I longed for His love, that this guru appeared, was because my hatred was the block from His love.

This man or this group has not caused fear for me since. I have been able to express to others who had an interest in this guru of his abuse and pointed them to websites who said his group was a cult.

A few years back, I happened to see online that he had died. I felt a strange sadness; I can't really explain why. I hadn't thought of him in years, but I felt compelled to ask God to bless this man in his journey home. Truly, God is merciful.

I hope this helps in some way. You are in my prayers.

Welcome, Deann, and thank you for sharing about your healing experience. I think it speaks to some of the issues Kristi shared above.

We really are still bound to those we feel anger, resentment, fear or shame toward, and it's not easy to break those bonds, is it? At least if we can name that as the problem, it can be helpful, and the first step toward forgiveness.

Hello Deann,

Welcome to Shalom Place. And thank you for the generous sharing that you did above. It certainly seems like some common threads of experience exist amongst many of us who have been initiated/involved with gurus. Your story attests to the strength of the supernatural ties that exist between guru-disciple and it seems that kundalini is manipulated as kind of glue that binds per the guru's intent. As I was reading your story, I recalled precisely the kind of terror you described in coming close to the energy of the gurus. I didn't recognize the anxiety then as being a warning against anti-Christ spirits that I detected. I remember thinking, "Why am I so scared?! That's so unlike me!" But I see now I was blinded to the dimension of reality of the source of those energies.

People don't realize that unholy soul ties exist not only when we feel angry/resentment/lust etc. towards others (expecially sexual) but also if they feel that towards us. I've prayed with people to break soul ties and come across a powerful energy break as they are renouncing a particular soul tie. The person I praying with will express surprise that I detect a strong break in the supernatural over a particular connection because they don't feel anything for this person anymore. However, what they don't realize is that the other person feels something for them and the bond exists because the other person keeping it alive at some level. That's awkwardly worded, but I hope you get the point.

Anyway, so glad the Lord has claimed you. I hope and pray that you will benefit from the discussions here and continue to experience God's Love and blessings in your life!



Kristi--

I want to respond to your recents posts, but am out of time for tonight. Will lift you up in my prayers tonight.

with love, and in our Lord,
Shasha

Thank you, Dean. It does give me more to contemplate.

I thank you and Shasha both for your prayers.

I myself would write more now were it not for lack of time this evening.

Kristi

Hi Phil. Thanks for the welcome. I've been lurking around for several years. I do so appreciate your internet presence and the services you provide, especially your experiences of the Kundalini energy.

Hi Shasha. Thanks for your warm welcome. I've enjoyed reading your posts over the years and have found support and comfort through your sharing.

Kristi, you have been through so much. I hope my post has not caused too much contemplation. I know for myself, taking in too much from others can sometime be overwhelming and confusing. I can't tell you how many times, I've thrown my hands up and asked God to please take it all; I'm so tired of trying to figure it all out. This gives my weary mind a rest and the quiet usually leads to a greater awareness of His guidance.

Blessings,
Deann