Shasha,

What are your intuitions and observations on the kundalini experience of El Collie? I've read the first four chapters so far, and it's very interesting so far. A real child of the sixties.

What feels right, or wrong or in-between and why?

http://www.elcollie.com/st/st.html

I'll try to finish the book by tomorrow. See Ya!

Dear Michael,

AMAZING! I was just thinking only moments ago, as I lay in bed this morning, that I have to contact the SP people and share with them what I sense feels wrong about Jana Dixon and others who have a lot to say about their kundalini "rides."

I haven't read El Collie, but I will check out that link.

I endeavor to approach this thing with humility and openness...and will probably fail...!

peace to you all,
dear ones,

shasha

OK, I just looked at the table of contents and half a chapter and feel sick. There are two things: channeling spirits and the goddess which are huge red flags. These appear also on Jana Dixon's website.

People don't realize that kundalini awakening opens doors to the supernatural in ways that are chaotic and dangerous. From what little I have read so far of both Collie and Dixon, they write about their contact with the supernatural signs and wonders made possible by kundalini as if it is something to celebrate! There is no sense of a need or even an inkling to �test the spirits.�

As some of you know, I have had encounters with the 'goddess' through my unwise involvement and intimacy with individuals who fervently worship her as the Creator of the universe, as kundalini itself. She is a deity that infiltrates the bodies and consciousness of individuals, providing them with the most exquisite, sublime, earth-shattering pleasures and grand-scale delusions. I have had precisely some of the experiences that Jana Dixon describes.

Please understand, I am not being patronizing. I don�t have an �ax to grind� or feel any hostility or contempt for these people.

In my view, the goddess which is contacted through kundalini awakening is Satan's most alluring deception of goodness and beauty and most successful weapons against God. People will become enthralled with her, thinking she is a holy gift, but they are on a road to a place of darkness from which they may never return! People are so seduced by the beauty and majesty of the supernatural world that with will assume they are all derived from the holy energy of kundalini.

On her website, Jana Dixon features a picture of herself in a triangle, the symbol of the 'goddess,' and talks about super-sex, tantra, and the kind of 'sex that is not sex.' I have tasted of this stuff, and I am telling you BEWARE. These are all 'gifts' from the spirit of the anti-Christ. These experiences will lead one farther and farther away from God's call.

Also, anyone who has made themselves, wittingly or unwittingly, open to spirit guides and channeling spirits is in contact with the demonic realm. I don't care if they look like angels or possess the most intelligent super-knowledge of the ages.

There is a good reason why the Holy Bible forbids all the practices of 'spiritualism.'

See Deuteronomy 18, 9-14; Leviticus 20, 27; Acts 16, 16-18; CCC 2116) They are dangerous.

In her chapter, Spirit Visitations, Collie writes��In Shaking Out the Spirits, Bradford Keeney tells of his visions and dreams of an eagle and other Amerindian totem animals, which disturbed him greatly since he had been Christian all his life. The many indigenous holy people from whom he sought advice told him essentially the same thing: There is no need to abandon your religion; just expand it to include the new truths and sacred experiences that come to you.�

Oh, my God! 'new truths and sacred experiences'! What utter nonsense.

There are several people who have played with this kind of fire and have gotten burned. I listed a few of them on the thread, From False Religions to Christ. Johanna Michealson, Randall Bear, and Miora Noonan all describe heavy, adept involvement in channeling spirit �guides� who have instructed them to say, write, and do extraordinary things. They were all rescued by Christ and woke up from their the delusion of the goodness of these entities and practices. See, they all celebrate their DELIVERENCE from this stuff following a period of celebrating what they thought were gifts.

These people have written their testimonies, not because they have an 'ax to grind.' In my reading of them, they are not hostile or contemptuous of other groups of people.

Look, the God of Israel is the most serious person that I know. Study only Him.

I completely agree with Shasha. I dipped into these sites this morning and was saddened that these people have been seduced by all these entities of the spirit world. There are accounts of people "playing" with nature spirits, communing with the god Pan, references to demons as simply "unevolved" beings, spirits communicating by telephone and computers etc. This is dangerous stuff. They have no idea who Christ is, who God is. All these beings are dangerous, demonic, evil.

I'm like Shasha. I've been there, been burned and the wounds are still healing. I've no ax to grind. Kundalini has opened up a spiritual realm where I find myself engaged in continual spiritual warfare and even now I have to guard against the seduction of tantra etc. I don't even see Kundalini as all that important in my spiritual transformation now, compared to the influence of Christ and the Holy Spirit that is. I just wouldn't like to see anybody else go down the dangerous road I've been down, including you MM.

Do we all have the same Spirit Guide then, coming to us individually? Jesus never seemed to treat any two people or situations the same, except for those boring old Pharisees and teachers of the Law. Christ may be amongst other things a prism and a hologram and mediator of experience. Mary and the Saints too?

I'm just up to chapter 8, and it's a veritable Who's Who of transpersonal psychologists, shamans, and spiritual teachers. She read 5000 books, and assimilated them into her experience. Wilber is a very different experience, more cerebral, it seems
to me. A few problem gurus we have thoroughly dissed in here before, but a hundred directions and most of the helping professionals mentioned seem like good enough people. Not a scary book at all. There is no knee-jerk reaction against Jesus or even His kids, which is a dead give away, sice the Enemy cannot stand even the Name.

As for me, I am great-full for the open door.

Good sharing. My interest in Jana Dixon's web site had more to do with the biological discussions, especially the sections on nutrition and supplements. As most of you know, the transformation of the body is a big part of what's going on, and there's not a lot written about that from a scientific viewpoint. I've only skimmed, but from what I've seen, she's done some good research and thinking on this topic. I can take what's helpful there and ignore the parts that don't resonate or that I even disagree with.

For sure, stay away from channeling, and don't confuse kundalini with the Holy Spirit. That said, let's not be too quick to think that anything that doesn't come with "Jesus is Lord" stamped on it must be from the evil one! As w.c. noted, lots of the stuff people are calling spirits is probably archetypal symbolism, which is part and parcel of our human psyche. Given the highly charged nature of some of these symbols during K arousals and awakenings, it's easy to see how people could mistake them for bona-fide demons, angels, etc. It's not always easy to tell one from the other, but it's not always wise, either, to consider anything that's not a product of conscious thought to be either God or the devil.

It all comes down to "reader be-aware," but I take that to be true even when reading the New York Times, National Review Online, and even quite a few Christian writers. That's especially true when reading New Agey types, but it doesn't mean one won't find a helpful insight here or there. Don't expect to find much in Christian literature concerning kundalini integration, however! That's for sure.

I see the wisdom in a balanced, temperate approach to these things and know how important it is to distinguish between archetypal symbols and spirits/demons. You'll find that a lot of new age types are pretty good at doing just that, including El Collie. If you search through her site you'll come across a page dedicated to spirit guides and entities -

http://www.elcollie.com/html/Issue7a.html

There is no mistaking demons with archetypes here. This is the real thing - a full and free engaging with the spirit realm.

It's all very well to say we can take what we like from these people and leave the rest, but for those of us who are open to such things there is a real danger of transference. For example, most new age types, whether writers, aromatherapist, whatever, will pray or chant over their work, which connects it (oils, books etc) to their spirit guide. If someone like myself gives themselves over to that work, the transference of that spirit being is quite possible. Not to the degree of possession but leaving one rather exposed and open to attack. It's up to you whether you believe this possible or not. I've been to websites and read books by new agers, psychics etc and found myself horrifically attacked later that night. Transference. Even if an individual isn't as opened out as myself, I see a real danger of contamination from this stuff.

If this is extreme or ultra conservative, then so be it. I speak honestly and openly from my own experience, and with a fair degree of discerment regarding these matters. Unfortunately, because of the lack of Kundalini talk amongst Christians, I continually find myself drawn to the likes of El Collie(who I know is no longer with us) for a bit of K advice, but more often than not it involves a bit of a sting.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, wc, when you call archetypes "creatures". Do you mean they have an existence independant of the psyche, and if so, what's the difference between them and the principalities which inhabit astral/spiritual realms?

Great-full to Phil and w.c., as their vast knowledge
in these areas eclipses mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...eclipse_negative.jpg

El Collie seems valuable for being a contemporary with a record of the kundalini experience, and a vast array of autodidactic information. She and Jana
Dixon have done alot of work and research, which makes it easier for those who shall follow. Still, I'm looking forward to another kundalini book from brother St. Romain.

My dad once called me a lame duck seeking out other lame ducks. I'll have to own that, but I may become a Lame Deer in the near future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lame_Deer.jpg

One of the shaman mentioned in chapter 8 and the aversion to joy and "Big Love" in our culture:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/161/story_16144_1.html

Happy_Church@your_place.com

Stephen, on that website page, Collie writes,

"Demonic beings are easily distinguishable from spirit guides and deities."

I don't think so, sister! It's not that simple. Several people have reported being fooled by what seemed like loving beings of light. Again, I refer you to those authors I listed in the thread, From False Religions to Christ.

If one is not at least open to the idea that Satan can appear as a glorious being of light, one is already deceived.

Stephen, you wrote:

------------------------------------------
It's all very well to say we can take what we like from these people and leave the rest, but for those of us who are open to such things there is a real danger of transference.
------------------------------------------

I agree with you, Stephen. While some folks may have some protection or stamina in this regard, think of all the vulnerable people who are hungry for 'spiritual' experiences, and their hunger and passionate curiosity will unwittingly draw garbage into themselves.

---------------------------------------------
For example, most new age types, whether writers, aromatherapist, whatever, will pray or chant over their work, which connects it (oils, books etc) to their spirit guide. If someone like myself gives themselves over to that work, the transference of that spirit being is quite possible. Not to the degree of possession but leaving one rather exposed and open to attack. It's up to you whether you believe this possible or not. I've been to websites and read books by new agers, psychics etc and found myself horrifically attacked later that night. Transference. Even if an individual isn't as opened out as myself, I see a real danger of contamination from this stuff.
-----------------------------------

I've had the very same experiences that you describe above. I have literally encountered the energy of some person during the night following the contact. This is why I have to avoid massages and opening myself up to long periods of reading stuff by New Agers.

I find that writing, pictures, statues, and music can be imbued with spirits. Everything seems to have an energy behind it. I know people can get paranoid about this, but the analogy I like is working in the ER. For folks who have worked in the ER, they see a world of dangers which most of us do not. So who is paranoid and who is naive?


On the matter of spiritual sensitivity, let me briefly share something. I belonged to a Spirit-filled prayer group and there was a lot of hands-on prayer that took place. Several times, after I left the place and went home to sleep, I would encounter the very demonic forces against which I prayed in various people. It felt to me as though I had 'dislodged' them and they were angry at me. I figured there had to be a better way. I prayed about this, and the Lord told me He allowed some of this because He wanted me to be vividly aware of what His children are suffering. At that time, even though I had encountered evil in the supernatural, I still was tempted to avoid it by intellectualizing the problem or putting my experiences in a box. Unless I can directly see/feel the dirty, ugly, hateful, destruction of the forces of anti-Christ, I might just sit around talking about it.

It might be that there is a redeeming purpose in one�s sensitivity to the supernatural. Altruism? At the same time, I don�t want to be a fool and tolerate pollution and stinging. I just keep making Jesus the Lord of every area of my life, and I figure He�ll take care of the details.

Speaking of altruism, C.S. Lewis said that his writing the book Screwtape Letters was an incredibly painful process. He said it involved having to allow himself to see/feel all that insidious evil so that it could be vividly described.

Let me also add that I recently went through a water baptism at my church. This was a tremendous experience! I do feel a more complete break has been made between my old self and my new life in Christ. And all that contact with gurus and junk have no hold on me anymore. Praise God.


peace to you all,
shasha

Thanks, mm. Maybe one day on another K book, but it's not a high priority these days.

Stephen, you might enjoy Jim Arraj's discussion of the archetypes from his book, Jungian and Catholic.
- http://innerexplorations.com/catjc/jc4.htm

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype

Basically, archetypes are unconscious predispositions that often express symbolically and mythologically. As such, they are "creatures of the psyche" rather than any realm external to the psyche. To the extent that the astral realm is equivalent to the realm of psyche, it would be difficult to distinguish unconscious symbolism from creatures who really have their own existence. Of course, we do believe there could be such, but, in fact, Christian metaphysics knows nothing about them. Christian theology and even biblical scholarship knows of other spiritual beings called angels, some of whom have fallen, but these would belong to the "spiritual realm." This isn't equivalent to Hinduism's "astral realm," which really does seem to be more in line with the Aristotelian/Thomistic understanding of "animal soul," which, in human beings, is precisely what comprises the psyche. Just as animals have a body and an animal soul, so do we, only body and psyche are "en-spirited" by the spiritual soul so that they exist in and for the soul.

Maybe that all helps to clarify. Whatever the case, it's difficult for me to understand how someone simply writing about experiences that "might" pertain to astral beings could endanger one's spiritual life. Do you and others really believe these entities move through those words into another's consciousness and take up residence there against one's will and despite the presence of God within a soul? This seems to me to be giving them quite a bit of power and influence. The way I understand these matters is that a certain level of permission must be given either explicitly or implicitly for "demons" to take hold of one's energy. I don't see how reading about another's experience implies any such permission.

I find benefit from a wide range of resources without necessarily buying lock, stock and barrel of those who've developed them. E.g., Richard Dawkins, an atheist, came up with the idea of memes -- a very good idea. It doesn't follow that my valuing this idea means I am endangering my soul because of Dawkins' atheism. See what I mean? Same sort of thing goes for El Collie and a lot of other writers. If one finds it too dangerous to read what they've written, then one should avoid them. But to pronounce them evil and off-limits out of hand seems a bit extreme to me.

Right on, as per usual, Phil. I see her as a rather sophisticated Jungian, amonst other things. I could do without some of the "plastic shamans" who are not affiliated with true Native American teachings. She speaks of forms of tarot, which from a Jungian perspective are informative, but along with I-Ching and astrology or Ouija, I'm just not interested.

We cross posted, Phil. the Beliefnet article above your post might interest you, or not. -big love, mm

Can deities live in books?

Here is an excerpt from Noonan's book, Ransomed From Darkness: The New Age, Christian Faith and the Battle for Souls. For twenty years, she had been involved in several New Age practices, including Third-Eye openings which developed strong psychic abilities, crystal work, goddess spirituality, guru initations, Reiki master, the Course in Miracles, and Christian Science to name a few.

In her chapter, "Housecleaning," Noonan relays her strong resistance to giving up her New Age stuff during her long converstion back to the Roman Catholic Church.

"My next challenge was to clear out all my New Age books and other paraphernalia. I wasn't strong enough yet in my own faith to do it myself, but I probably never would be until all these objects and influences were gone from my life....The work took several days. I had thousands and thuosands of dollars worth of occult objects in my house: books, audio tapes, videos, icons, statues, jewelry, clothing, meditatin cushions, sacred shawls and plants, candles, lots of pagan ritual objects...crystals, stones into which specific dark forces had been called by name in order to perform occult tasks.

I had such a hard time doing this, I know now, because I hadn't yet been delivered from the demons connected with these objects. So when this gentle and supportive Christian man came to deliver my home from all this stuff, I actually became physically ill. I had an overpowering resistance to him removing things from my house, which all but paralyzed me...He came out to help me like Mother Teresa coming to serve the poor. It was a great act of mercy mainly because he had to deal with my reactions, which were irrational and hostile. At one point, when he picked up my copy of A Course in Miracles, the greatest bible I had known for the previous twenty years of my life, I was so devastated by the thought of letting go that I lost control. I hadn't the strength or the will to finally and utterly reject this set of teachings.

I only know from being told afterward that I began screaming nonsense, or rather, demons attached to the Course in Miracles began screaming through me."

Phil, I think you're missing Stephen's point. When authors have explicitly called on their spirit guides to write a piece of work, it doesn't matter what the content is.

At the same time, I see your point, Phil, that one may have to give permission, at some level, to allow demonic entry.

What about curiosity and interest? Is this a form of permission? If I'm reading something and I think, "Wow, I would really love to have some of those far-out, blissful experiences! What I wouldn't give to experience such rapture!" Isn't this an invitation?

There is some ancient Hindu stuff, can't recall the scripture, that describes a kind of openness during which one need only THINK of a thing and it immediately comes to you (energetically).

I think this is why St. Paul warns us to "take every thought captive," and that the contents of our mind / consciousness are either pulling us up to Christ or down.

"I'm not quite sure what you mean, wc, when you call archetypes "creatures". Do you mean they have an existence independant of the psyche, and if so, what's the difference between them and the principalities which inhabit astral/spiritual realms?"


Stephen:

I'm mostly in agreement with Phil's dinstinctions above, but here's my particular view, or wording of it, in response to your question:

The archetypes are certainly aspects of the created soul, and help organize awareness in this fallen condition of ours; they appear as aspects of the self experience, and since the fallen self cannot, short of complete purification, be wholly conscious of its entire existence, these energies often display themselves in terms of that struggle. We all have exile parts of the soul which attempt to integrate, or communicate their desire for a place in the heart. When strong and banished for the psyche's perceived survival purposes, they can appear with a shadowy quality, such as in addictions. So they are creatures as expressions of both the collective and personal unconscious realms, but more generally as belonging to the order of created consciousness, whether elemental, animal or human, as Phil notes.

As for the astral realms, my experience of this includes seeing departed souls that appear at times to comfort me, which I view as belonging to the communion of saints, but also as a potential sensitivity/vulnerability to innately astral beings, or perhaps departed souls that are lost in some sense, as in those which grieve and don't let go and inhabit places as ghosts. My experience with demons seemed to come through this realm, as in their way of making an entrance; each episode involved a traumatic situation, or the reliving of some extreme abuse that seemed to make me vulnerable. In one case I called out, from deep in my sleep, "Jesus of Nazareth save me!" The demons, which were a hideous form, vanished instantly.

So these astral apparitions seem to involve beings that have their own life separate from my own, whether departed souls, demons, or some other created beings. It wouldn't be too surprising to find other created beings in other realms just as confused as we are, since all are fallen. These are for me categorically different than the archeptypal energies which I've referred to as creatures, which was mainly meant to emphasize the difference between God and creation.


Shasha:

I'm re-reading the "Screwtape Letters," and would recommend also "The Great Divorce" for these matters we're discussing. It's telling that C.S. Lewis was so brilliant in his understanding of the mythological, and in particular the way fairie tale can enrich us, or at least reflect this fallen inner life and all its longings. He doesn't show a bit of confusion between this sort of enchantment with life, as creatures are naturally prone to in moments, and the realm of evil. Tolkein of course was keen on this as well.

There is a form of permission given when impurites enter one's life (implicit, as you say, Phil). For example excesses of alcohol or sexual impurity seem to create openings, even in Christians, for demonic beings to cling to. Maybe it's just me but if I give myself over in weakness in the slightest degree I leave myself vulnerable. One could become very legalistic and pressurised under these conditions and perhaps it doesn't seem compatible with God's grace, but I see it as an intense purification course that leads one closer to God.

Also, having experienced demonic attack after aromatherapy massage and after visiting certain websites, I have to say that taking interest in any new age activity leaves one vulnerable. I certainly didn't give the demon permission to attack me when the new age aromatherpist in my dad's cancer ward tried to help me through the stresses of caring for my dad, but attack me it did. Similarly when I was searching the web for info on K and came across certain sites dedicated to astral travel and psychic research, I don't feel I was purposefuly opening myself to demonic energy, nor was I indulging in sensual excess, but again I was attacked. Perhaps my searching was indicative of a lack of faith. At the very least I was displaying an interest in these things and this made me vulnerable. I don't feel that this is close to giving demons permission, but I can honestly say what I experienced was the impression of dark, filthy, malevolent life forms with independent existence on my body and consciousness.

I also recently bought a book by a Scottish poet whom I admire and in the biographical note I found out she was a practising witch. Again that night I found myself opened up to her energy. You only have my word on this but I trust you know me well enough to understand that these symptoms are more than just psychosomatic. Now I'm not saying these people (or El Collie) are evil, it's simply a matter of energy transference.

During one strong Kundalini flow a couple of years ago, actually when it had mostly past and I was recovering, I experienced the vision of certain powerful beings and their cohorts, who claimed to be alien beings from another planet travelling on astral levels. Whether or not this was the case (perhaps these were simply astral beings trying to con a big Star Trek fan) I don't know, but the possibilty of opening up to astral beings through Kundalini was very much emphasised.

As for the archetypes, I'm with you both there. The reference to them as creatures just threw me a bit. I don't really see what they have to do with the descriptions on El Collie's web page however, where there seems to be explicit reference (in my understanding) to fallen beings, which include nature spirits.

Another aspect of this which prompts me to refer to archetypal energies as creatures is how they respond to a certain kind of compassionate attention. So when a strong passion arises, it is possible to form a relationship with it through sensation, giving it whatever kind or quality of attention it needs internally rather than acting it out. This is no perfect arrangement, given fallenness, but the relationship is a real one that slowly integrates aspects of the self that are otherwise rather disturbing or distracting.

For the record, I surely don't condone New Age mysticism, as I consider it gnostic and dangerous for many of the reasons the rest of you do. On the other hand, I'm not adverse to reading about the experiences of others, even when their interpretations are New Agey. It's not difficult to make the conceptual adjustments to understand what they're saying, and I don't believe demons are somehow sneaking into my consciousness in the process. I'm also not adverse to trying something like, say, a nutritional supplement that is recommended on those sites, as I don't think demons come in through those things either. Call me naive, here, but I just don't believe the universe is so dangerous a place. God's sovereignty and providence really do rule!
- - -

Congratulations on your baptism, shasha. Baptism is indeed a total gift of self to Christ. May the blessings flow.

You're probably well protected, Phil, and haven't exposed yourself to much that is harmful in the way of demons, occultists etc. You've also probably lived a good clean Catholic life. Some of us have been round the block once or twice with, what shall I say ? . . . irregularites, and these have left a few chinks in the armour. Deliverance and healing isn't always instantaneous, it's a long slow process, and exposure in areas of weakness can be quite trying. So for us, there's just that need to be especially careful.

Thanks, Phil. I had resisted a water baptism thinking it was just a formality, or worse, a show of vanity. Boy, was I wrong! I came out babbling like a child, "I'm free...I'm free..." in a voice that seemed somehow new to me.

Stephen wrote:

Some of us have been round the block once or twice with, what shall I say ? . . . irregularites, and these have left a few chinks in the armour. Deliverance and healing isn't always instantaneous, it's a long slow process, and exposure in areas of weakness can be quite trying. So for us, there's just that need to be especially careful.

-------------------------------------------

I just read about Noonan's 17-hour confession to a Catholic preist. He insisted that she recall and renounce EVERY occult practice and entity that she had encountered in 20 years.

She writes, "It was not enough for me simply to say, "I did these things," as if this were some Catholic version of psychoanalysis. A total, formal, remorseful rejection of each practice was demanded of me. In this way, hesitantly and often with painful resistance, I rejected every school, every teacher and every spirit I had ever worked with."

Like Stephen, I've exposed myself to some powerful supernatural forces and this kind of involvment requires a period of healing and deliverance.

I am inspired by Noonan's confession. I've confessed very superficially to a preist, but have never actually renounced, by name and in detail, all the energies to which I 'bowed' in one form or another. I do see there is transformative power in Reconcilation.

Praise God.

Hi Phil:

"Basically, archetypes are unconscious predispositions that often express symbolically and mythologically. As such, they are "creatures of the psyche" rather than any realm external to the psyche. To the extent that the astral realm is equivalent to the realm of psyche, it would be difficult to distinguish unconscious symbolism from creatures who really have their own existence. "

I have discovered that ones genetic background
may have an impact on how one experiences the
archetypes. Having Native American heritage I
experience the archetypes as animals at times.


Ajoy

shasha and Stephen, you both make a good point about the importance of one needing to stay away from writings and issues that could exploit old wounds. I think of alcoholics who need to "change playgrounds and playmates" to stay sober, and who'd best not experiment again with "social drinking."

Writings like those of El Collie and Jana Dixon can indeed be critiqued from the perspective of Christian doctrine, and undoubtedly there are areas where, in that context, they are seriously in err, especially regarding the theological implications of their writings. Other parts might not be so much in err or dangerous to one's spirituality; still others might actually be helpful. Sorting that out might not be worth it to some for various reasons, and I can certainly respect that. Very often for me, the benefits are so minor in comparison to the time and effort required that I just don't even bother going very far into it.

Re. someone like El Collie, with whom I had several exchanges: I did share some of my concerns from the perspective of my understanding of Christian theology and spirituality, but it didn't go very far. I always found her most respectful, kind and validating of my own journey. She had no need to convince me that I was wrong in some of the points I was making that conflicted with her understanding. Very much a "live and let live" person, and very willing to be helpful as well. This perception of mine has been echoed by many others and attests to workings of grace, imo. Still, yes, I do believe she was mistaken in some of her teachings, but apart from Christian faith, it's difficult to establish that critique.

I am really enjoying these exchanges, a lot of these topics discussed are what I was hoping for in on the Satan? thread.

I think there is something vitally important in the distinction between those who have a new age/occult past and those who don't. A question that arises from this is, are the dangers a reality and simply more dangerous for those with occult pasts, or are the dangers minimal and a person simply more vulnarable.

In other words, one view is that Satan, demons, spirit guides etc. are dangerous and purposeful in their attempted enslavement of people, and your past makes you either weak or strong. The other view is that these beings are only moderately dangerous and an occult past simply makes you weak.

Phil, you certainly seem to think the world is not a as dangerous as shasha and stephen seem to think, interestingly I share some of the same history and agree with them. Again, this does not answer the question, simply adds weight to the fact that your past influences your current experience.

The day of my conversion I was keenly aware of the energy and pull of occult and new age objects in a Christian woman's daughter's room. The daughter had dream catchers and some other objects and I could sense their energy so much that I asked to please move to another room.

Are these energies neutral or dangerous? The fact they they exist are not in doubt to me, simply whether they pose as great a risk as shasha and stephen seem to think, or as small a risk as Phil and w.c. assume.

I was reminded this morning of saints who have been tormented by demons. Many of the Orthodox saints like Elder Joseph went through periods of great demonic trial. In particular he had to battle a demon asscociated with lust which ended up as a wrestling match in his tiny cell. I think Mother Theresa had demonic struggles towards the end of her life. I wonder what sort of permission these people gave. Again I'm convinced God knows and is in control, and can only assume some kind of purification work is going on.

Having said what I've said, I'm not averse to trying the supplements recommended on Jana Dixon's site. I've even started taking a little wheatgrass juice in the morning. Anything for a little zip. No demonic backlash as yet .

Dear friends, I always pray for the saints at Shalom Place. Peace and love to you in the name of our Lord Jesus.

I prayed earnestly yesterday that the Lord reveal to us the truth about this matter of energy transference, Collie's writings, etc. I prayed, "Father, please show me the truth...am I being paranoid? What will you have us learn from this exchange?"

Yesterday, I was poking around Collie's website and was reminded of my Siddha Yoga involvment years ago. On one of those pages, Collie refers to herself as a 'snake person' and says there are two kinds of people, snake people and the rest. Snake people are those who enjoy kundalini transformations and the divinity that it brings, she seemed to be saying. I remembered one day while I was chanting passionately some mantra and it began to chant through me automatically--a tidalwave of bliss praising the kundalini goddess, Kali (pronounced like Collie!) Creator of the Universe, wish-fullfilling tree, Dancing Flame, all of that. Suddenly, in this virtually empty parking lot, across which I was walking, appeared a large black snake, and he was hissing loudly at me! Then a few years ago when I got back into kundalini goddess worship, in meditation I was visisted by a snake and bitten on the forefinger. This is supposed to be auspicious! as Collie, kundalini lovers, and even some Hindu scripture purport...and I really believed this nonsense.

Anyway, last night about 4 am, I had a dream of this very helpful, generous-seeming woman. I saw that the closer one got to her the more they could detect something very wrong. Then she tried to kiss me on the face, and at that instant, I was awakened by an evil presence in my room. In a flash, I saw a picture of Collie and the words from her website describing her as very generous and helpful. I thought, OK don't panic, just pray...the "snake people" stuff came back to me and I decided to put myself in a grateful mood. I thanked the Father for His protection and asked to be open to what He might be trying to teach me. Afterall, I had prayed for the truth about this issue. Despite this presence in my room, I remained in a fairly relaxed state for a while, nothing happened, so I thought I'd just try to go to sleep.

Before I fell asleep, I was wisked away to some 'place' where there was this awful hissing sound. It was so loud that I could barely stand it. Then I saw there was this snake and then emerged a bunch of hideous amphibian-like creatures, larger than normal. The hissing filled this place, and I instinctivly began to pray in tongues. I don't know what I was saying but it was causing the creatures to shrink until they finally disappeared.

I was returned my 'body' and I thought, that's it! I'm done. Thank you, Father. I prayed to the Holy Mother, too. Then I experienced another encounter with some demonic force, but it was completely gone by this morning. Though I know it happened, it was wiped out of my awareness completely.

So, I've said my piece and I've made my peace. Thanks for indulging me in your listening.

p.s. Jacques, I don't really think there are neutral energies. Either one is being pulled up to Christ or down by forces aligned with the anti-Christ. And I agree with Stephen that all the drama in and around us is for the sake of purification, which I think is the same as sanctification...somebody, correct me if I'm wrong.

From Jacques: Phil, you certainly seem to think the world is not a as dangerous as shasha and stephen seem to think, interestingly I share some of the same history and agree with them. Again, this does not answer the question, simply adds weight to the fact that your past influences your current experience.

Jacques, I do believe in the reality of evil, evil spirit, etc., and that some philosophies, teachings, practices, etc. open one to their influence. Having met with people for spiritual direction for over 20 years, I'm much aware of the malevolent influences of evil spirit.

That said, I am admittedly more inclined to see many of the manifestations people call demonic to be disenfranchised aspects of their own psyche that are laden with unintegrated energies. It's possible that demons might be working in and through these . . . hard to say for sure. Trying to exorcise symbols carrying archetypal and/or repressed energies is a rather futile exercise, and the persistence of these "demons" in the face of holy water, Holy Communion, etc. belies their demonic character, imo. These manifestations can and do appear to be autonomous -- even "external" to the Ego, having a life of their own. I'm not trying to overly "psychologize" this issue, but one must consider these realities when attempting to discern whether evil spirits are wreaking havok. That consideration goes for Elder Jospeh and Mother Theresa, whom Stephen mentioned above.

So much of Hinduism and New Age teaching seems smitten with indulgence of archetypal dynamics, imo. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as integrating the archetypes is part of the journey to wholeness. Whether or not other dynamics come into play is a matter of discernment, which entails consideration of much more than whether one feels spooked or not. E.g., you state above:

quote:

The day of my conversion I was keenly aware of the energy and pull of occult and new age objects in a Christian woman's daughter's room. The daughter had dream catchers and some other objects and I could sense their energy so much that I asked to please move to another room.

When you say you sensed these energies, you sound like you made some kind of objective observation -- like noticing there were red lights emanating, or the objects were hot or cold. What you're not considering is how much your own projections contributed to what you sensed. Being spooked by objects from other religious or spiritual traditions doesn't mean evil spirits are lurking; that's very shallow discernment, at best. One would need to examine these kinds of feelings more deeply to see what's really going on, here. See what I mean?

- - -

Tough night, shasha! I hope you sleep better tonight. Sounds like it was a transformative experience.