The transformational experience is not considered normal in the "run of the mill" hummanity. And most folk that have had a "Transformational Experience" are considered by "normal" folk, weird. The question is, "Are they?"

And how many normal folks have had a "pre transfomational experience" and figure out a way to side step it, so that they don't get transformed?

I have had a lot of "transformational experiences" and in hind sight, I wouldn't have sidestepped any one of them, they have always brought me closer to God. Some of these transformational experiences I was happy about and some of the transformational experiences I was not happy about, while they were happening. But it turned out, that, after all the unpleasant transformational experiences, that I was a better person.

Why do we have negative transfomational experiences? Why do they create a more positve reality in our lives, if we survive the experience? acaveyogi

Thank you for starting this thread. I'll really don't know anything much about transformative experience. I can't think of a better reason for being here. It's the most interesting topic I can imaginate.

Grief, I feel, is very important. Those with broken hearts can feel for others. September 24th was my sister's birthday. I'm feeling sadness and grief a bit today since there was a chill in the air and I recall one day when I was seventeen and I had to carry her lifeless form out of a carbon monoxide filled garage.

By all means, let's help someone out there avoid such an experience! Yes, let us transform the world. These were our Master's last instructions...

caritas,

mm <*))))><

Why do we have negative transfomational experiences? Why do they create a more positve reality in our lives, if we survive the experience?

acaveyogi, it is an interesting topic. I believe Christ allowed negative transormational experience for only one reason: To understand what Christ mean by faith. As far as I know the only way to understand what faith means tangibly is by passing through this experience. Through such experience we understnad what faith is and through faith we can really surrendering our little ego.

Suffering itself is useless. The usefullness comes from God working all things together for good, what is brought forth from the experience of suffering.
Ever since I was a child I have gravitated toward
tales of suffering, since it is an extreme of human experience, often producung a counterbalancing spiritual experience. Show me someone who forgives
their jailers and I will show you a Miracle of Love!

Hi Grace

Whoa Michael! you "are" studing the mystical experience. My contribution to this topic/thread can only be based on my experience, I am not as well read as you guys are. So please take anything I my say as "statement of fact" as "my" opinion/experience until otherwise proven in your own personal experience. OK?

I always thought that oneness with God was suppose to be a wonderous wonderful experience. It turns out that it is once you get throuh "The Transformation" The transformation process causes one to periodically "shut down and reboot". This process of shutting down and rebooting creates a disturbance in one's "Wa". to say the least.

It turns out that we are "biological computers" and that our concept of self and the way we look at things is programing. And for the most part none of it is real. But for the most part our minds say to us that without this programing we will die. Psalms 23 "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil." Fear is the kicker! For most of us, our concept of "safe" is based on fear. If you are not afraid of this or that and/or generally a bunch of things, most of which are in your subconscious mind, evil will befall you!. Most of our programing is founded on one fear or another and rooting out and facing any one of these "foundation fears" can and will cause one to become mentally and/or physically sick.

In order to understand "Divine Knowledge" all aspects of fear needs to be erased from your concept of self (and most of these fears are subconscious and you don't even know that you have them, but they are still very real) gone utterly. Welcome to the "Transformation Experience" Love, John

Hi Grace and I agree with you! Back in my medium young days I decided that I was going to give up anger and cease to be in a constant state of anger and I did. For years afterwards life was one constant panic attack. My anger protected me from my fear and when I gave up anger all I had left was my fear and the fear was in my subconscious mind. After ending up in the emergency room for the third time, the Dr. said to me, "John you are have panic attacks." I said ok and started incorporating some anger and hostility back into my personality. Cold turkey wasn't a good idea Love, John

And from that point I started exploring my subconscious mind and taking a look at exactly what was going on in there Whoa! And everytime that could pin down one of those fears and drag it out to have a look at it it made me physically sick. It was awful and as I got deeper into things my fears expanded expodentually. There is a reason why psychiatrists just give you drugs and forget about. Rummaging around in your subconscious mind is a night mare. Love, John

The collapse of ego defenses, but watch out for the pre/trans fallacy. One can be deluded while imagining oneself enlightened. The crazy person seldom admits to his insanity. Then there are people who believe that they have actually become God. Oops! There needs to be a way to reconstitute after one's deconstruction. No wonder mystics wind up homeless. Looking forward to many caveyogic topics in the future!
great-full mm <*))))><

Watch it Michael you could end up one of my tribe. How do you separate "Reality" from "Nonreality" when you are dealing with the "Human Mind"? Welcome to a mystic's world Michael, you have asked the "ultimate question!" And if one believes that it is real, it is real, whether it is real or not ! Love you! John

I guess that post brought things to a screeching halt

Everybody who, ever gets anywhere in the mystic/yoga/Tao/self understanding world goes through a personality transformation. Or they were born a Saint, which does happen sometimes

"Everyone" who has ever gone through a mystic/yoga/Tao/self understanding transformation has one thing to say about the experience, "OUCH!"

"OUCH!" is really standard when it comes to real transformation. I visited with a fellow, awhile back, on the internet, that was teaching/sharing yoga knowledge with others. And he really knew his stuff. He had spent alot of years looking into and studing yoga knowledge. I said to him, "You are not teaching "oneness with God"." He said to me, "I know, but they don't want "oneness with God", they want "Bliss"."

Now, we have two concepts of reality. Bliss verses something else. Or is something else and Bliss the samething? (I am only allowed eight images). Be right back! John

When I learned the secret of "Bliss", which I actually learned from studing the picture of Brittany Daniels (her spirit energy pattern) on the jacket cover of the "Joe Dirt" video, I went, "I am now an arrived master!" Actually I knew how "Bliss" was done in several different ways (a bunch of things correlated ). So I thought that I had achieved "oneness with God". Not! It turns out that you can achieve "Bliss" and go through zip for transformation, "unpleasent".

So MysticalMichael my moderator guide (another image! or two!) have we achieved a "scizm" (I can't find this word in my speller)? Love, John

. . .And if one believes that it is real, it is real, whether it is real or not . . .

John, I'm not sure I understand your point, here. It almost sounds like you're saying only subjective reality is real -- that it is one's belief that makes something real or not. I'd strongly disagree with that if that's your point. Could you clarify, please?

Thanks. Phil

Hi Phil nope, I am not actually saying that. And I thank you for bringing this inconsistency up. The problem is that we generally consider everything that we know and believe real. Whether it is or not. When what we consider real is tested in life/reality and found to be "not real", for whatever reason, we have to "Reboot" and approach things differently. Or we become a basket case or just continue to battle a wall that won't move. If we "Reboot" and approach things differently, then we experience a "transformation". Right Grace ? Love, John

caveyogi,

I share your tendency toward the subjective and apophatic. It gets me into a great deal of trouble.
I continually seek balance through rational, logical
and practical folk.

It's good for me to admit afresh every day that I don't really know anything, and begin anew. The only thing which stops me is fear, "the mind killer."

My best thinking gets me into addictions and obsessions of many pain-full varieties. Please continue to expound on the "unknowing."

idunno.com ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

quote:

"apophatic"

MysticalMichael ! sheesh

What planet do you live on "and you will clean it up if you do!"

For the rest of "us" apophasis : "The artful mention of something by denying that it will be mentioned."

Phil where do I report "a post"! Michael is accusing me of running "apophasis" on you! Noway! Sheesh! Sputtering John

Well that seemed to bring everything to a screeching halt. Versions of "apophasis" is a gift. I have now not only been caught doing it, but there is also a name for it, who knew! MysticalMichael may you and all of your generations be cursed with the "Love and Grace of God!"

Transformations! Awe Man! Michael you are loved! John

The ultimate fear

The ultimate fear that is the foundation of our concept of self is Vulnerably "I am vulnerable". This fear is countered by permission to feel "Power". All fears are ultimately anchored to this foundation fear. We have fears that are anchored to another fear that is anchored to another fear that is anchored to another fear, but in the end when you dig down through this mess of fears the last fear that you will have to face is "Vunlerablity".

In a normal person having to face a fear, a series of reactions occur: The first thing that is experienced is anger and hostility; The second thing is you run or walk off (Fight or Flight); The third thing is you become self destrutive, either homicidal or suicidal; The fourth thing is you go to a safe place in you mind and become autistic and probably become sick and die.

A "naging" fear that can't be solved will also cause you to become sick and probably over time, die. It should also be mentioned that "Boredom" will do one in also

Now the insidious thing about the "fear of vulnerablity" is that is is not attached to the fear of death. It seems like it is up front, but if it really was attached to the fear of death then you would not become suicidal and/or self destructive. And death will, normally, always be chosen as a last resort over facing the "fear of vulnerablity". Ain't life grand.

Now if what I said above doesn't make sense to you, this is OK anger and hostility are not necessary. Love, John

Well said, and if I had had your eloquence last night at my group I would have articulated it that way. It might be an interesting sub-topic to run in the religion and politics section: how is this fear exploited by spin-doctors on the right and left in order to keep the troops in line?

I'm discovering that there is a difference between trancending and repressing fear. Much bottoming out as a religious addict has taught me well, albeit painfully, and was no laughing matter at the time.

The fool who persists in his folly may become wise.

sillyhumanrace.com

I'm discovering that there is a difference between trancending and repressing fear. Much bottoming out as a religious addict has taught me well, albeit painfully, and was no laughing matter at the time.

MM: I hadn't even heard of "religious addict" until the last few months or so. It certainly puts a label on my experience for more years than I'd like to think about. Yes, it has been very painful.

CY: I can see the willingness to be vulnerable is the key to transformation. Through surrender to God, He brings me face to face with my fears. Often I take flight. Lately, He has given me courage to be still. When I am willing to be open and not run, everthing I need for the healing or transformation appears. You and others on this message board are often the instruments for bringing me greater understanding of myself. I am so grateful to Phil and all the regulars here at Shalom Place.

God Bless,
Tate

"The fool who persists in his folly may become wise." MysticalMichael

The above qoute of yours Michael has been my world and the community of the internet has been my teacher. Alot of rebooting has been involved whew!

Micheal you are suggesting that I step into "Politics and Religion". The only advise that my father ever gave me was, "Don't talk about politics or religion. Talk about the weather."

I am in a forum here where you and Phil are the moderators, and you guys allow me to "Free Style" as long as I come into meaning somewhere along the line. Which you understand from past experience, "I will" .

Micheal what we are up against is the "Psyco-Social Dynamics" of the human mind. I could make a "mint" in advertising. I could make a "mint" in Hollywood. I could make a "mint" as a Guru. My problem is that it is not about me, it is that I would like all of mankind to be on an equal playing field. There is no money in that. The money is things being on an unequal playing field. Knowledge is power. Power is money.

Michael you are suggesting that I explore the concept of how the players in "Politics and Religion" exploit their knowledge of the "Psyco-social Dynamics" of the human mind, to manipulate folks. Michael you are dangerous! You not only create "Transformational" experiences in me, but you are also encouraging me to be me .

Humm.... "All around the Mulberry Bush the monkey chased the weasel. The monkey thought that it was all in fun, "pop" goes the weasel!"

I am not sane, am I michael? In my younger days one time, I was sitting out in the front yard on a beautiful summer day, at the farm, our summer home, reading a western, Lous Lamour, and I had my .22 pistal tucked in next to my side. The birds that were nesting in the apple trees that grew in the front yard at the time, erupted in commotion. They were "very" upset about something. I set my book down to see what was going on, and there was a weasel, scampering happily through the grass under the apple trees. So in defence of those bird's babies, I pulled out my pistal and "pugged" that sucker. Then I went back to reading my book. It is funny how things come out sometimes. Michael I am not sure what my point is, but I think you understand what I am saying You are loved! John

Well, you know what they do to sane people like Socrates and Jesus. It is a cause of concern. Only a small number if I interperet spiral dynamics correctly can think globally, have transcended ideology and have the ability to experience the world trans-rationally.

I am becoming very cautious around people now, as more has been revealed to me. I now know few outside the internet who are acheiving these levels. It becomes quite lonely, and much of the time my inner dialogue must remain internal.

Brother Andrew practiced the presence of God and seldom consulted anyone about his condition.

I have literally feigned madness around those who might become hostile if their consciousness were to be threatened. At other times I have feigned enlightenment in order to conceal my madness.

Those poor Trappists, limited to communicating by hand signals, deprived of benefit of counsel other than their confessor and abbot. Such a waste.

Then again, so much must remain unspoken. It would be considered bad form to discuss the details of our most intimate relations, but occasionally even this taboo can be broken.

waking_up_is_hard_2_do.edu

Michael I love the way you put words to things! In that old message board that we were in someone posted a topic called, "Inter Religious Dialog." The concept was, creating world peace through communication between religions. I always condidered that an interesting challenge, 1)Because "Whoa!" and 2) Because I am a Christian. Inter Religious Dialog is an oxymoron . Alot of folks say, "All paths lead to God." Yet Jesus said, "streight and narrow is the path that leads to salvation and wide is the path that leads to destruction." And then Phil says about minimal, no wiggle room, "Don't turn your face away from God." What Phil said impressed me, what he said created a "Foundation point for inter religious dialog"

Michael here we are in a topic called "Transfomation! Aw man!" and we are creating transformations in each other right here in front of God and everybody

"Experience the world trans-rationally." If a person thinks about that deep enough it gives them a head ache (smile). "Fragle Personalities", transformation I don't think so!

I have been thinking about what Grace said about Jesus "allowing" us to have experiences that change us. It seems to me that if you belong to Jesus that He brings you closer to self understanding. Which then brings you closer to humbleness before God. If you don't belong to Jesus then you wander down the path to destruction. I welcome change that brings me closer to God and my only prayer is, "God please be gentle." As painful as change is and has been, God has always been gentle.

I hear you Michael, generally speaking the human mind is set in concrete. Going around it is way more fruitful (I love that word it reminds me of Phil) than contesting it. Love, John

Hey MysticalMichael I was thinking of you and the word, "Propensity" popped into my mind Do you and I and others have a "Propensity" to discuss this stuff? (smile) I am only allowed eight images you know.

So just for fun lets break "Transformational Experiences" down into "categories" and stick lables on those buggers. If anybody has any ideas for more than what I come up with we have room for more! And a "Propensity" to discuss them (smile).

Spiritual transfomations, Physical transformations, and Mental transformations. And maybe all three at the same time.

Mental transformations: 1) A brush with death (that one is a kicker), 2) Incountering a vulnerablity based fear and surviving the experience, 3) Discovering power that you didn't know that you had, 4) Permission to feel "Loved" or to "Love", 5) Discovering that you can "duck" a tranformational experience (smile).

So what do you guys think? After all everybody has had a tranformational experience except Phil Love, John

Hey Michael, if you were a mother, you would never be wrong. Love, John, a son

I keep running back into Plato's cave, but you know how they are.

1-5 above just all run together for me now. I'm always running from love and responsible growth, but
they keep chasing me down.

Ever read Francis Thompson's Hound of Heaven?