Hi,

Since Monday is the first day of deer season, I was wondering if Christianity or any form of spirituality has anything to say about hunting season. Does anyone know if there's any formal information about it?

How many of you are hunters? How do you justify your pro or con stance?

I am not a hunter but I know many fine hunters so I've heard much on both sides of the issue.

I've also heard that Jesus might have been a vegetarian. What do you think about that?

uraqt

Uraqt, there is no condemnation of hunting in Christianity. If there were, then all forms of butchering livestock, poultry and fish would have to be condemned as well.

FWIW, there's absolutely no evidence from the Gospels that Jesus was a vegetarian. In fact, he even cooked fish for the Apostles at one point, and one can assume that he ate a good Jewish diet, which included meat--especially lamb, fish, and poultry.

I'm an ex-hunter myself, and once loved it much. Now I've no desire to kill animals, but I do eat meat and have no judgment to those who hunt within the laws set down by their state or region.

Phil

As has been said before, if we had to kill everything we eat there'd be a lot more vegetarians.

The Buddha would eat meat if offered to him in his begging bowl. The recognition is that all life feeds on life in one way or another. To live other things have to die. Even a vegetarian kills billions of microscopic bugs not to mention the many small insects that are no doubt killed in the cultivation, packaging, transportation and retailing of vegetables - in various ways.

The goal would be to minimize suffering in the animals we consume. Vegetarianism, to its credit, does a very good job of this.

Hunting is often frowned upon because of the "sport" nature of it. That is, people derive pleasure from the killing of the animals. Well I'm not a hunter so I don't know how swift the death is, but if the animal is eaten then the same result is produced. Certainly we derive pleasure from eating a hamburger.

One could argue that some who kill their own food have a greater respect for nature. Look at the Native American cultures and rituals in which the animals are held in high esteem. I eat my hamburger and never give a second thought to the animal that was killed. Which is worse?

And it's also interesting that some of the greatest benefactors of setting aside (via purchasing) land for the purpose of keeping it wild and "natural" are hunters.

Phil,

Thanks for the information about Christianity and hunting season. I tend to agree with you about the diet of Jesus, too. However, if I find the book that mentioned otherwise, I will post the name and author of it.

Many people in my family of origin (both men and women) were also hunters. In fact, in my part of the country, it is not usual for married or dating couples to go hunting together. I always loved the prehunt rituals....the family gathered together and told stories. It was a time of comraderie and warmth. However, as my Dad grew older, he also had no desire to kill animals and often mentioned that he went along simply to have a good time with his family and friends.


Brad wrote:
Hunting is often frowned upon because of the "sport" nature of it. That is, people derive pleasure from the killing of the animals. Well I'm not a hunter so I don't know how swift the death is, but if the animal is eaten then the same result is produced. Certainly we derive pleasure from eating a hamburger.


Brad,

The death can be very swift under the right conditions and with a skillful hunter...and I do know families who actually get their major source of meat from hunting season.

I've also heard hunters argue that allowing the deer herds to grow out of proportion merely leads to deer starvation....which is a much more inhumane death.


Brad wrote:
One could argue that some who kill their own food have a greater respect for nature. Look at the Native American cultures and rituals in which the animals are held in high esteem. I eat my hamburger and never give a second thought to the animal that was killed. Which is worse?

I think the Native Americans had sacred rituals around their hunts. Based on the things I know about Native Americans, some had a great respect for the animals who gave up their lives in order to let them live.


Brad wrote:
And it's also interesting that some of the greatest benefactors of setting aside (via purchasing) land for the purpose of keeping it wild and "natural" are hunters.

Yes, Brad, some of the hunters I know are also
dedicated conservationists.


One other thing......I was out driving to the store the other night and saw a deer whose hindquarters had been mutilated by an automobile.
As I passed it, it raised its head and looked at me pleadingly with its big brown eyes. I pulled over and called the State Police and asked them to please come and put it out of its misery.
I later learned that a few minutes after I left the crash site, a hunter also saw what had happened and intervened to end the deers pain and suffering. I will be forever grateful to him.

This is a tough issue for me.

Thanks for your comments gentlemen.

qt

Hi.... I too come from a long line of hunters - I even know how to shoot but the problem is I can't hit the broad side of a barn so never actually went into the woods in search of game... Everyone figured I was a little too dangerous... Hehehe. I have no problem with hunting with two exceptions. I do not see "staged" hunts as hunting and I have a problem with those who hunt simply to kill - if you kill it you also must eat it.
Myself I prefer hunting with a camera... that leaves wonderful memories for everyone involved.
Peace,
Wanda

Originally posted by Wanda:
....I have no problem with hunting with two exceptions. I do not see "staged" hunts as hunting and I have a problem with those who hunt simply to kill - if you kill it you also must eat it.

Wanda,

That was the general rule in my immediate family too. If you killed it, you gut it, clean it, and eat it...and if you didn't want to eat it, you found a family who did want it.

That's quite a difference from the "staged hunts" that you mentioned. I think those hunts are
actually pretty lucrative business deals, in many cases at least.

There's a book by J.Boone, "Kinship With All Life," in which he describes actual telepathic interspecies communication with a German Shepherd dog. I wonder if anything like that is possible with deer. I think animals have a consciousness of their own that differs from ours and I think they are capable of feeling pain, among other feelings.

When I left the house this morning, a buck bounded across the road in front of my car. A little further down the road, a herd of doe were running in a field alongside the road. They all seemed so frightened. There were many hunters in the woods today and the deer just didn't seem to know where to run anymore. The shots were frequent throughout the day.


Myself I prefer hunting with a camera... that leaves wonderful memories for everyone involved.

Me, too....

Thanks.

qt

Jesus was indeed a vegetarian. There are 25 million vegetarians in the U.S. and most of the world's population are vegetarian. here is a nice writeup on the subject.


For many Christians, major stumbling blocks are the belief that Christ ate meat and the many references to meat in the New Testament. But close study of the
original Greek manuscripts shows that the vast majority of the words translated as "meat" and "trophe, brome," and other words that
simply mean "food" or "eating" in the broadest sense.


For example, in the Gospel of St. Luke
(8:55) we read that Jesus raised a woman from the dead and "commanded to give her meat." The original Greek translated as "meat" is "phago," which means only "to
eat." The Greek word for meat is kreas ("flesh"), and it is never used in connection with Christ. Nowhere in the New Testament is there any direct reference to
Jesus eating meat. This is in line with Isaiah's famous prophecy about Jesus's appearance, "Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, they shall call
him name Emmanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good."

Cheers

Jesus was indeed a vegetarian.

I'm no authority on the diet of the Lord but I think this possibly boils down to one assumption: vegetarianism is inherently purer than being a meat-eater so therefore Jesus must have been a vegetarian. Hmmm.

I'll admit my total ignorance on the subject. It's always interesting (and what else would biblical scholars have to do!) to investigate and speculate about the possibilities. Was Jesus black? Did he travel east and come into contact with Buddhism? Did he this, did he that? Sorry to be so crude but he must have also went to the bathroom even though it doesn't specifically say so in the bible (does it?)

My point would be that all this, while perhaps of some interest, in irrelevant to the universal points of love, compassion and forgiveness that he preached. I get a little queezy at such specific discussions because it misses the point. Like the Buddha said when he talked about using his words as a vehicle to get to the true idea and not to get stuck in the words. Paraphrased: "When I point my finger to show you the moon don't mistake my finger for the moon."

Originally posted by Calvin4:
Jesus was indeed a vegetarian. There are 25 million vegetarians in the U.S. and most of the world's population are vegetarian. here is a nice writeup on the subject.

Calvin,

Do you know the title or author of the book about Jesus and vegetarianism?

Thanks for the additional information on the subject. Unlike Brad, I do think it is important.

In many monasteries the monks abstain from eating meat. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this?
Also, if we read about many spiritual adepts, they voluntarily become vegetarians along the way. I think meat eating may also affect the energy flow in the body. Calvin, do you know the effect it has on our chakras? I know that it is a way to slow down the kundalini process. If energy is running high and one wants to slow it down, go eat a hamburger, it will work. Also, do Seventh Day Adventists practice vegetarianism?

Thanks.

qt

Thanks, Calvin et al for the ongoing reflections on vegetarianism and spirituality.

Again I say, however, that there's absolutely no proof that Jesus was a vegan. See Lk 24: 42-43, for example, where the risen Christ appears before the Apostles, who are not quite sure if he's a ghost or not. "Have you anything to eat?" Jesus asks them. "And they offered him a piece of grilled fish, which he took and ate before their eyes."

Jesus also ate Passover Seder meals each year, which included lamb. There's no record of him requesting a vegetarian alternative, as there was no such.

There is nothing in Jesus' teaching forbidding the consumption of meat. In fact, in Acts 10, 9-16, Peter receives a vision where he is encouraged to eat even non-kosher meats. "Now, Peter; kill and eat!" the angel stated again and again, finally telling a reluctant Peter, "What God has made clean, you have no right to call profane."

We all do know, however, that a meal with lots of meat makes one feel sluggish. That's probably why its consumption is generally discouraged in contemplative traditions, East and West. Such traditions emphasize lightness of spirit and clarity of awareness, both of which are negated to some extent by meat--especially, again, heavy portions. Getting proper protein is an issue in those traditions, however.

My own experience is that a small amount of lean meat on occasion does little to harm contemplative awareness and much to help strengthen the body. Fish, in particular, seems to do no harm.

All just FYI. There are other reasons for being a vegan, I'm sure.

Phil

Uraqt: I'd agree. Eating a low or no meat diet makes one feel healthier and "lighter," and if you feel better it is much easier for your spirit to be a repository for good things. My quibble is that I don't believe vegetarianism itself confers any special higher moral status to the adherent, in the sense that those who eat meat are of a lower status. And I become concerned that vegetarianism (in the context of religious observance) becomes a bit of a side-tracking issue. Do it for your health. Do it because you think it's the moral thing to do. But I'm uneasy about giving it any more significance than this in the context of Christianity.

I'm reminded of the funny (and blasphemous) Monty Python film "The Life of Brian" where one group fractures into the "one-sandle-wearing" contingent.

Phil,

By way of clarification..... vegan and vegetarian diets are two entirely different diets.
A vegetarian generally eats no meat...although some use the word loosely and eat a bit of fish or chicken. A vegan is an entirely different matter. In addition to no meat, a vegan does not eat dairy products.... A vegan would not eat cheese, milk, etc. or products made with these foods.......A vegan may also choose not to eat eggs or egg products.

As far as Jesus goes, I still have questions about it. He could have very well attended meals without eating meat, very quietly, without causing a fuss. The question that comes to mind is....If Jesus was totally aware of the consciousness in all things, how could he have eaten his animal friends?......maybe that's why they said he ate a piece of fish.



Originally posted by Brad Nelson:... My quibble is that I don't believe vegetarianism itself confers any special higher moral status to the adherent, in the sense that those who eat meat are of a lower status.....

I agree Brad....I've seen some people flaunt their diet and use it as a means to look down on others. I don't like it used in this way either. This is not what I am talking about....I think that oftentimes vegetarianism is a natural byproduct of other spiritual practices. In that way, it is good because it shows an awareness and respect for other species of life.

qt

This is only my second post on this board, so I am new to this board.

Many believe that parts of the bible were changed for those who made adjustments to suit their own needs.
Many Christian churches today advocate vegetarianism, They warn others of the impending ANIMAL HOLOCAUST.
this first link has a listing of many such churches including the 7th day adventist church, and a big article on Jesus the Vegetarian.

http://www.compassionatespirit.com/links.htm

Eating corpses of animals and eggs also brings on sickness in many people, bad karma as well, and is bad for ones soul as well, most americans have not a clue. In the next link I will provide a link to the info.

There is no fiber in meat, only in plants and vegtables, humans are not meant to be carnivorous.

We are the only ones in the animal family with straight teeth who consume meat, if God had meant us to eat meat he would have given us fangs like such animals.

Meat eating only brings upon bad karma and build up of disease and toxins in the body.

THE FOLLOWING LINK SHOULD BE READ BY ANYONE WHO CAME HERE -

http://www.feelhealthynow.com/FAQ/what_about_meat.htm

I agree Brad....I've seen some people flaunt their diet and use it as a means to look down on others. I don't like it used in this way either. This is not what I am talking about....I think that oftentimes vegetarianism is a natural byproduct of other spiritual practices. In that way, it is good because it shows an awareness and respect for other species of life.

I can agree completely what that, uraqt. When I'm on my best behavior (which is not often these days) I feel terrific when I eating nothing but veggies and some chicken or fish (avoiding sugar, salt and pre-packaged food). It's the wheat and corn that absolutely wipe me out. I've been an allergy magnet since I was a kid!

humans are not meant to be carnivorous.

Calvin: Humans, if anything, are meant to be omnivorous. We NEED protein, and granted, all the right kinds can come from vegetable sources if you know what you're doing. This "meant to" stuff, well, I'm reminded of the saying "all things in moderation." Good for you that vegetarianism is working. It's surely a healthy thing to do.

Calvin and uraqt, did you see my reference to Jesus eating grilled fish in Luke's Gospel? It really doesn't cut it to say that if one doesn't agree with such a passage, then maybe it was added. After all, there's never been a great debate in Christianity about this to motivate anyone to dabble with the Scriptures.

Did you see the quote from Acts? There are many others in which it's quite clear that the early Christians ate meat.

From uraqt: The question that comes to mind is....If Jesus was totally aware of the consciousness in all things, how could he have eaten his animal friends?......maybe that's why they said he ate a piece of fish.

Umm, uraqt, fish ARE animals. And, at any rate, what does Jesus' consciousness have to do with anything? Plants have reactions to the environment as well, and must have surely been Jesus' friends. Every step Jesus took on this earth, he killed nematodes, microorganisms, arthropods, or some other animal form. Let's not get too silly about some of this.

From Calvin: We are the only ones in the animal family with straight teeth who consume meat, if God had meant us to eat meat he would have given us fangs like such animals.

Carnivores need fangs, Calvin, but we're omnivores. Big difference! That's why our teeth are as they are. (Ye olde mammalogist talking, here.)

And let's not forget that eating spoiled milk, eggs, vegetables and fruits can also cause problems with physiology and attention.

Whatever reasons one may choose to be a vegan or vegetarian or whatever, the teaching and example of Jesus on this issue is a pretty weak foundation to build on.

Phil

Phil... I have to agree with you on all points. Correct me if I am wrong but somewhere in Scripture I seem to recall words to the effect that it isn't what goes into our mouths that cause the problems, but what comes out.


Eating lots of veggies is a much healthier way to live than the good ole meat and potatoes only diet some follow. Moderation is the key. Too much of anything can kill you - even water.
Myself, give me a bowl of homemade soup, a crispy salad, good bread and a glass of wine and I am in heaven.

But - I do like to substitute a nice steak and baked potato for the soup on occasion.
To each his own on this issue.

Wanda

Originally posted by Phil:
Calvin and uraqt, did you see my reference to Jesus eating grilled fish in Luke's Gospel? It really doesn't cut it to say that if one doesn't agree with such a passage, then maybe it was added. After all, there's never been a great debate in Christianity about this to motivate anyone to dabble with the Scriptures.

Yes, I saw it Phil. I didn't say that it was added. Did Calvin?

Did you see the quote from Acts? There are many others in which it's quite clear that the early Christians ate meat.

Yes, the early Christians ate meat but Jesus was not an early Christian. He was the Christ.


From uraqt: The question that comes to mind is....If Jesus was totally aware of the consciousness in all things, how could he have eaten his animal friends?......maybe that's why they said he ate a piece of fish.

Umm, uraqt, fish ARE animals. And, at any rate, what does Jesus' consciousness have to do with anything? Plants have reactions to the environment as well, and must have surely been Jesus' friends. Every step Jesus took on this earth, he killed nematodes, microorganisms, arthropods, or some other animal form. Let's not get too silly about some of this.

But I don't think fish are very high on the consciousness scale. They're not very cuddly or
very responsive like, let's say, a cow or
a chicken. This is merely observation.

I would think Jesus's consciousness had to do with everything. It would have to do with his perceptions and how he related to life....and what he ate. His actions would flow from his level of consciousness, don't you think? How we interpret something determines how we respond to it, right? Jesus was like us in all things but sin....so....

(Warning: Non sequitor coming......Look at the Sikhs! )

Anyway, I also think each person has to make their own decisions in this area. It is fun to wonder about Jesus though, isn't it?

I revel in questions Phil......

Thanks.

qt

Yes, the early Christians ate meat but Jesus was not an early Christian. He was the Christ.

Ahem, if Jesus had been a vegetarian and had thought it important for his followers to do the same, the early Church would have adopted it. They didn't, hence my point reflects to Christ as well--along with the mention of him eating fish.

And who says fish aren't cute and cuddly anyway? That's obviously a matter of taste, don't you think?

Phil

Ahem, if Jesus had been a vegetarian and had thought it important for his followers to do the same, the early Church would have adopted it. They didn't, hence my point reflects to Christ as well--along with the mention of him eating fish.

Hmmmmm....Phil, there sure are other things that the early Church didn't adopt that the present Church makes a big fuss about and Jesus never mentioned....but I'll spare you the details.

Who knows? Perhaps, one day the Church will be discussing vegetarianism....but you are probably right, Phil.....probably....maybe....hmmmmm...

[i]And who says fish aren't cute and cuddly anyway? That's obviously a matter of taste, don't you think? [/i}

Cuddly scales? Yes, must be a matter of taste.

Another thought occured to me....maybe the fish was being used in symbolic form in your Scripture passage...Jesus ingested a fish to show that the Christ consciousness is ingesting Christians?

See what happens when I think too much Phil...

Thanks for going along with this thread....good one!



qt

Ahem, if Jesus had been a vegetarian and had thought it important for his followers to do the same, the early Church would have adopted it. They didn't, hence my point reflects to Christ as well--along with the mention of him eating fish.

Hmmmmm....Phil, there sure are other things that the early Church didn't adopt that the present Church makes a big fuss about and Jesus never mentioned....but I'll spare you the details.

Who knows? Perhaps, one day the Church will be discussing vegetarianism....but you are probably right, Phil.....probably....maybe....hmmmmm...

[i]And who says fish aren't cute and cuddly anyway? That's obviously a matter of taste, don't you think? [/i}

Cuddly scales? Yes, must be a matter of taste.

Another thought occured to me....maybe the fish was being used in symbolic form in your Scripture passage...Jesus ingested a fish to show that the Christ consciousness is ingesting Christians?

See what happens when I think too much Phil...

Thanks for going along with this thread....good one!



qt

A tiny note.....

I was sitting in traffic today and the car in front of me had a license plate that said, "Eat more possum."

Really!



qt

"Beverly Hillbillies" here we come! Loved that Uraqt..

Peace,
Wanda

Good that some of you here ask questions rather than make assumptions, unlike most Americans.

Indeed there is much evidence to support the fact Jesus was a vegetarian, allthough it has been supressed by the church for years.

JESUS was from Nazareth, and all the citizens there were vegetarians.

From the bible;

disciple "Master if there come to us any that eat flesh shall we recieve them "?

Jesus " Let such abide in the outer court till they cleanse themselves from these grosser evils for till they percieve and repent of these, they are not fit to recieve the higher mysteries"

the following site has lots of eveidence to support the fact that Jesus ate only plants. -

http://www.rawhealth.net/jesusdiet.htm

The vegetarian movement is very active amongst Christians and spiritualists from all walks of life, here are some good quotes from some famous people;

quotes on vegetarianism
>
>
> "Cruelty to animals is as if man did not love God."
> > Cardinal John H. Newman
> >
> "Man did not weave the web of life: he is merely a
> strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does
> to
> himself. To harm the earth is to heap contempt on
> its
> creator."
> > Red Indian Chief (1854)
> >
> > "If you have men who will exclude any of God's
> creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity,
> you
> will have men who will deal likewise with their
> fellow
> men."
> > St. Francis of Assisi
> >
> > "Killing is a denial of love. To kill or to eat
> what
> another has killed is to rejoice in cruelty. And
> cruelty hardens our hearts and blinds our vision,
> and
> we are unable to see that they whom we kill are our
> fellow brothers and sisters in the One Family of
> Creation."
> > G.L. Rudd, author of Why Kill For Food?
> He who has renounced all Violence towards all living beings, weak or strong, who neither kills nor causes other to kill - him do I call a holy man"
> Dhammapada 405


"It is said about Lord Buddha adaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. He saw the whole human race going to hell by this animal killing. So he appeared to
teach ahimsa, nonviolence, being compassionate on the animals and human beings. In the Christian religion also, it is clearly stated, 'Thou shall not kill'. So
everywhere animal killing is restricted. In no religion the unnecessary killing of animals is allowed. But nobody is caring. The killing process is increasing, and so are the reactions. Every ten years
you will find a war. These are the reactions."
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada


"We cannot separate ourselves from those whom we call the 'lower' animals. They are lower in the scale of evolution, but they, like us, are members of the One Family. We must not take away the life of any
creature. Indeed, we must never take away that which we cannot give. And as we cannot restore a dead creature to life, we have no right to take away its' life."
J.P. Vaswani, Why Kill For Food?



>