Hi Everybody,

So here's something I have been thinking about for a while and have been meaning to ask.

The Christianity that I am currently embracing seems to be forever pushing me out of my comfort zone and into places that begin to make me nervous and confused. It usually raised questions around the issues of Occultism.

If most of you here are okay believing in the existence and possible benificial uses of various spiritual energies, where is the line between naturally occuring energies and occultism or magic?

What would you consider the nature of the forbidden practices of sorcery, astrology, divination etc. in the old testament and how do we identify these practices in the many forms they take on today?

What is the difference between these forbidden practices and energy work/healing/spirituality?

How do these practices as found in the various world religions influence the truth/practices of these religions and how they influence us when we interact with them?

This may be a big one and need another thread, but why do people become demon possesed, and is there ever a danger of demon oppression/possesion when dealing with energy work, and what is the effect of demon possesion when occuring through/with occultism?

The Christianity that I am currently embracing seems to be forever pushing me out of my comfort zone and into places that begin to make me nervous and confused. It usually raised questions around the issues of Occultism.

Hi, Jacques. From where I sit, it seems totally reasonable and understandable to want to pursue a sense of awe, mystery, and wonder. Is that not what we�re looking for? Is that not to be expected? If we�re living in a Divine universe, is it not quite natural to want to escape the relative humdrum of our lives and plug into pure love and exaltedness? It would seem a waste of our lives, consciousness, and Creation itself if we didn�t, for do we not sense that we are meant to be of some purpose and therefore to also pursue some purpose?

Now, for me, the question becomes: Do we try to "ramp up" our actions, techniques, and our level of consciousness in order to try to achieve an experience of, and appreciation for, the incredibleness and awesomeness of existence, or do we instead find and touch that awesomeness through more mundane means? My bias will always be toward the mundane because, one, it is inherently more humble and I find that to be quite compatible with the religious and, two, does not sort of "flush" reality as not good enough and needing to somehow be experienced through psychedelic lenses and thus there would never be a question of the occult entering in.

Don�t take that as a condemnation of spiritual pursuits or practices that aren�t plain vanilla for there have surely been a lot of good people who have done some things that otherwise might have looked pretty odd. But why not keep it simple?

Jacques, I think part of your inquiry pertains to what we mean by occultism and spiritualism. These are two different kinds of pursuits, the latter being more easy to define in that it is seeking assistance from the deceased and/or other spirits. Judaism and Christianity do not deny that this is possible, only that it is undesirable as the possibilities for deceit, here, are enormous. It's also possible, as you noted, that one could become vulnerable to evil spirits through this practice.

Occultism is a little more difficult to define, as the term pretty much refers to engagement with the supernatural, usually in a secretive or hidden way. The problem here lies primarily when one does so in an attempt to bring these powers under one's control, which further inflates the Ego and, again, opens one to the possibility of deception and evil influence.

So, as Brad notes, one's motive is important, and for Christians, it's also important to submit our spiritual endeavors to the care of Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Having done so, one might indeed find some of these practices helpful.

Astrology . . . I can't speak personally for that one, as I've never really taken it seriously. I know some who are very much into it, and who honestly believe there's a valuable discipline there. I have my doubts, however.

Occultism is a little more difficult to define, as the term pretty much refers to engagement with the supernatural, usually in a secretive or hidden way. The problem here lies primarily when one does so in an attempt to bring these powers under one's control, which further inflates the Ego and, again, opens one to the possibility of deception and evil influence.

I find that summation quite helpful. As usual, I�m talking theoretically and in generally and am not making, or trying to make, any judgments about Jacques. If I did I would say there�s little chance that someone who is so honestly and openly inquiring about the distinctions between spirituality and occultism is in any sort of danger.

Anyone who has even been to any sort of motivational seminar knows the instant power and seduction of ideas presented by presenters who are, of course, skilled at presenting such things. But there�s no denying that one can get a good "buzz" from such encounters. It can really raise one, if only temporarily, out of the humdrum of normal life. And let�s face it, normal life is often either so boring or painful that it�s only natural that many people would want to either escape it or enhance it with some type of "controlled" substance. And this isn�t, of course, all bad because that�s exactly what the pomp and circumstance of churches and church services do, in my opinion, although if one is moved or effected in such orthodox circumstances then one might say that one has quite rightly been moved by the Holy Spirit, and perhaps this is actually so. But I think it�s obvious to see that it could be deuce difficult for a person to sometimes find a logical reason how, say, an overpoweringly moving church service is fundamentally different from some other practice that seems to do the same thing. And thus surely your question, Jacques, regarding the occult.

My bias would be towards trying to recognize if we are trying to chase stimulation or spirituality in order to get a high from it, just as we might some drug. If I�ve learned anything from my addictive experiences it is to let life come to you as it will. Seems to me that would apply to God as well. Remain open and receiving but if we try to "jerry-rig" some type of religious experience then it seems to me that we�re telling the Creator that life around us is just not good enough, thank you. And I do think that in both the long and short-term we are much better off finding the sacred in the normal and mundane. These things are always around us and thus it is not only practical from that standpoint, but we never have to worry about being lead too far astray. It�s a good way to ground one�s self against other unhealthy influences as well.

Perhaps some more information is necessary to explain my case. Before becoming a Christian, I was involved in drug use both as recreation and spirituality. I was a Rastafarian/New Ager/Mix in anything else that involves God and drugs.

The result was a mix of as I said drugs, hinduism, magic/witchcraft, telepathy, yoga, chakra stimulation, reiki, mind reading, as toxic psychosis or otherwise known as drug induced Schizophrenia.

After becoming a Christian I cut ties with everything that may have had any connection with non Christian elements ie all the things that I mentioned before were chucked into the garbage can.

A year later I decided to study Theology and met a lecturer who introduced me to Christian mysticism. The attraction and enjoyment of the subject was almost instant. But I was wary as in some ways it reminded me of some elements from my past. A few years later, I am still on the mystical exploration, but am finding myself picking up some of the practices I had before but discarded. I am a bit worried though as I don't know where the line is as honestly it seems to keep moving. Two years ago, I would have been more or less happy talking positively about Christian mysticism, but not buddhist or hindu mysticism. My views are beginning to change, and I am a little more open to other things now. Primarily things that I find many people on these threads talking about, i.e. Chakras, energy, kundalini etc.

My anxiety comes in when I wonder where the line is between these things and truly forbidden practices. In Galations and Revelations, the Bible talks about those who will not enter the kingdom of heaven because of their sorceries i.e. pharmatikos (perhaps drug related witchcraft). But even if you remove the drug related part, where is the line between these practices (energies, chakras, etc. and sorceries that are forbidden. What is the Philosophical/Theological difference bewteen these things and how do I avoid the later.

I will try to write more later....

quote:

So, as Brad notes, one's motive is important, and for Christians, it's also important to submit our spiritual endeavors to the care of Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Having done so, one might indeed find some of these practices helpful.

Astrology . . . I can't speak personally for that one, as I've never really taken it seriously. I know some who are very much into it, and who honestly believe there's a valuable discipline there. I have my doubts, however.

This really confuses me Phil, are you saying that there are practices that seem to be forbidden in scripture that you think may be useful is practiced under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Surely this cannot be, if I submit divination/or white magic to the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Not that I am at all interested in these subject), that it may prove useful. Or am i misunderstanding you.

Astrology also I am sure is forbidden in scripture as we may not use the stars to predict the future. The book of enoch states that the fallen angels shared the secrets of astrology, witchcraft etc with mankind. And Deuteronomy forbids these practices.

Jacques, if you are a Christian, then keep your relationship with Christ primary. I don't advocate seeking kundalini, enlightenment, altered states or anything like that. My experience of kundalini came as a consequence of the deepening of prayer, not vice versa.

I don't speak of chakras as a "practice," but (perhaps) as a way to help understand our metaphysical makeup.

I don't recommend astrology to anyone.

quote:

Two years ago, I would have been more or less happy talking positively about Christian mysticism, but not buddhist or hindu mysticism. My views are beginning to change, and I am a little more open to other things now.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, but there's really no reason for a Christian mystic to get involved in Buddhist or Hindu mysticism, imo. I don't think we need to be condemning them or view them as demonic either.

Wow. What an interesting life you�ve lead, Jacques. Your experiences would no doubt make for an interesting book. Maybe you�re still in the process of writing the ending, though

Perhaps you yourself are in a good position to be able to reflect on what spiritual practices enhance one�s sense of goodness vs. perverting it. Obviously there are a lot of orthodox "do�s and don�ts" that represent the combined experience of centuries regarding spirituality and the pitfalls on the outer edges, but I would imagine that much of that experience and wisdom was gained from people like you who were "out there" and then sort of came back to tell of their experiences. I think once you spend some time settling down in more orthodox endeavors (assuming that�s not where you are right now), you�re probably going to have much to say about such things.

Thanks for the replies guys,

I certainly agree that keeping my relationship with Jesus primary is the single greatest key in my whole journey. Without Him as my focus, I may easily fall of the boat (and I won't be able to walk on the water either ).

But my questions still remain unanswered for the most part, (Though your answers so far have provided food for thought).

Phil, from a metaphysical point of view, how does occultism/sorcery etc. differ from energies like kundalini and chi or prana, are there other energies or are they all the same thing. Are we allowed to manipulate them for our own purposes or does that become witchcraft or sorcery of some kind. When i say manipulate them, i am talking about for example reiki or acupuncture or other forms of energy healing. I am also talking about using Chakra music or chanting to stimulate the flow of energy in the chakras.

One other question, my wife wants to practice Yoga for health and partly to add to her spiritual development ( but from a Christian point of view, if that is even possible), what do you think?

Jacques, I don't see a problem with people doing yoga stretches for exercise purposes. What danger could there be in that? If one isn't sure, then one shouldn't do it. You could always pray before and ask God to use the yoga exercises to make you healthier. How would that be different from doing any other kinds of exercises?

"Subtle energy" work is a little trickier, but, as these all belong to the natural order of things, could follow the same principles. I see nothing wrong with using acupuncture to treat certain ailments, or even some of the energy massages. To me, that's all different from channeling and doing certain exercises to build up psychic powers. Again, prayer can be helpful to set the right intent.

How does this sound?

Jacques,

It might be helpful to think of these energies as human, not occult or demonic or pagan per se, but part of who we are as created beings, part of our psyche. As such they belong to every human endeavour, spiritual or non spiritual, physical or intellectual, so that an athlete, for example, might have a high level of chi/prana nourishing his body, while a scientist or an artist might have concentrated levels of energy fuelling his rational faculties or creative imagination.

So when we engage in spiritual pursuits we cannot help but cultivate these energies, it's just that our focus and goal is Christ and the energies themselves are a mere by product of our pursuit. Go to any Christian charismatic meeting and you'll find these psychic energies in abundance; pray and read scripture, take part in any form of church worship and you'll find these energies in service to the Holy Spirit. It's just that when the energies are manipulated for their own sake or for selfish or evil ends then we're into the realm of sorcery or witchcraft.

With acupuncture and yoga etc., I think we have to be careful, but I don't think you can equate them with sorcery and witchcraft.

Very helpful replies guys,

Would Reiki be a form of channeling, as you are using the body as a channel for the Universal life force energy to pass through and into the patient that is coming for healing.

I understand completely about the building up psychic powers being wrong, but I find myself asking how is it that energy work can have this effect (or is this not what you mean). I mean if it is only natural energy how can anything it does have a negative spiritual effect. When psychic powers are developed through the practices, are they still only using natural energies or are they then drawing on demonic sources? Would the purposeful stimulation of the chakras (for example if I go down to the music store and buy a cd that aids in the opening of the chakras) be considered building up psychic energy,channeling or simply subtle energy work that is permissible?

[qoute] With acupuncture and yoga etc., I think we have to be careful, but I don't think you can equate them with sorcery and witchcraft.
[/qoute]

Even though i understand what you mean ( i think) it still confuses me when you say that, because if it isn't sorcery or witchcraft, then why do I need to be careful of it. How is it that something can be good but not good and bad but not bad at the same time?

Much love in the Lord Jesus
Jacques; still wondering but having a good time doing it - thanks a lot for your interactions

I had never heard of Reiki so it was interesting to read a brief description of it.

I know nothing of such things, but for what it�s worth: Reiki for Christians.

From their FAQ:

quote:

Q. How do we know that healing is appropriate for Christians to do?
A. In I Corinthians 14:1 Paul tell us to eagerly desire spiritual gifts. In I Corinthians 12: 28 Paul says that healing is one of the gifts. Paul also says that each of the gifts is best expressed with love. Also, Jesus is quoted in John 14:12 as saying, "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I go to the Father." We know that Jesus practiced laying on hands type healing, therefore, it is scriptural for Christian to practice healing by laying on hands.

I�m one for whom even reading the horoscope seems a little bit "out there". But I guess people do find real value in this stuff. Live and learn, I guess.

Maybe it's a bit like exercise. Exercise is good, right? Nothing wrong with it. But what if it's the wrong type of exercise, or too much? It can lead to complications. That's what I mean when I say you have to be careful.

The problem with reiki is that you're putting yourself into someone else's hands (literally) and making yourself vulnerable to their manilpulation. The idea that a healer is channelling lovely healing white light is a false front. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it has to be positive.

Also, there's a big problem in Christianity with people mistaking psychic energies for the Holy Spirit.

Stephen,

I'll share a couple of experiences with reiki. I saw
a woman for reiki about a dozen times and it was a good experience for me. It was a little wierd and scary since it was something new. This was a very kind person with the best of intentions, who was a volunteer at the wellness community.

Sometimes I thought that I might pick up some bad energy from this lesbian witch who played New Age music while giving me reiki, but I never did. I always felt much better for a day or two. One time I questioned her about Christian reiki, and she said that she recieved her attunement from a Christian lineage. That time it worked out fine.

Another time I wound up standing in a circle and the fellow leading the prayer invoked the Ascended
Masters' aid. I silently prayed to my Christian higher power and said," No thank you, I don't want any Ascended Masters." When he came around to me and placed his hands on my head, he said that he felt some "resistance" and therefore would not give me reiki. My prayer was answered, and later on I heard some weird things about this fellow, so
I am great-full that I am watched over, even when
I'm not using the discernment very well.

caritas, mm <*))))><

Yes, Michael. I think it very much depends on the person administering the healing, their intentions and what he or she is tuned into.

It's been a while since I had any hands on healing. Some of it was fairly pleasant; at other times I felt myself energetically connected to the healer in a way that was a bit disconcerting but not necessarily sinister; still again I've found myself at the mercy of a healer who turned out to be pretty evil.

This was all before I was a Christian and, thankfully, I'm a bit more discerning myself these days. If I was certain a healer was filled with the Holy Spirit I would have no problems, but as it is there is just such a jumble of psychic energies channelled through reiki, even channelled through Christian healers, that I find it necessary to steer clear.

One thing I've noticed is that spiritual warriors, like other soldiers, can entertain themselves and pass on hard won experience by hanging out and showing each other their battle scars.

onward_christian_soldiers@peaceful_warrior.com

Jacques, you raised an interesting topic. You have got a good response above. I will add a little bit of my view on the issue.

All the stuffs having to do with chakra, kundalini, subtle energy etc is as Phil put it correctly our metaphysical make up. As a Christian it is not necessary to concentrate on those things. As one deepens their relationship with Christ those terms listed above become evident. For instance, I learned all these things through natural experience. Prior to my spiritual experience I had no knowledge about this stuffs. When my spirituality deepens these stuffs revealed by themselves naturally. The energy system in our metaphysical body is not something we deny. However, if we concentrate solely on these matters to achieve something then these stuffs can be a fertile ground for demonic infiltration. Primarily our focus must concentrate on Christ to avoid any demonic infiltration.

I hope I don't add any confusion in your rich discussion

Hey guys,

sorry i dissapeard for a few days. My wife just gave birth to our first baby. He is a beautiful baby boy named Joshua Levi Rothmann. Mommy, Daddy and baby are all doing great.

Stephen, you said:

quote:

It's just that when the energies are manipulated for their own sake or for selfish or evil ends then we're into the realm of sorcery or witchcraft.

I understand this, but could you give some examples or scenarios where a neutral practice could lead to either good use of these energies or bad/demonic use.

I hear all of you when you say Christ needs to be the focus, and agree completely. But are we allowed to stimulate the energies in our physical bodies for spiritual and health purposes, and could we do this purposefully. I suppose I am asking when good or neutral practices go bad, or what seperates them. Are there some things that are just bad, like necromancy or divination or astrology and are there things that are neutral like reiki or acupuncture that could be bad if practiced by a non-christian who may be tied to demonic sources.

Example, my wife and I are interested in learning how to do reiki as we believe in natural health and would prefer natural health over medical intervention. Can we as Christians learn how to channel reiki energy without ever worrying about becoming influenced by demonic beings or energies.

Wow. Congratulations on your first child!

Jacques. congratulation on your first child.

Re. Reiki. If you and your wife are interested in natural health there is no any reason to use Reiki. The problem with Reiki is the entire practise is based on passing down symbols that comes from a Reiki master and has been passed down from master to master. Each time you use it, you draw to yourself the energy of the master and all those who have added their energetic signature to it as it was passed down. I believe all healing comes from God, but one must be sure to go directly to the source, because you simply cannot be sure of the purity otherwise.

Adding my congratulations, Jacques, and echoing the concern voiced by Grace re. Reiki. Why not use, instead, the more traditional Christian practice of "laying on of hands" in prayer to the Holy Spirit?

That's a fantastic name you've given your kid, Jacques! Congratulations!

I second (or third) Grace's insights about reiki. The implant of past healers is all through the energy.

I don't really know if there is such a thing as neutral energy or neutral practise. It's all done with a specific intent and is marked by whoever, whatever is involved. That's why Christian practise is so powerful, because it relates to the source of pure love. I find simple prayer pretty healing, invoking Christ's name, gently and faithfully, is very soothing.

I know I used to be interested in stimulating energy for its own sake (before I was a Christian). It didn't do me any good. The energy got mixed up with other energy, led me into all sorts of trouble. It was like putting the cart before the horse. Now, with the focus on God and His Son, any energies that are stirred up are in service to the Holy Spirit. I feel the focus is right.

Congratulations!!! <*))))><

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the help, your postings are proving very useful in guiding my thoughts.

I think some of my confusion is coming from my assumptions about this energy which may need to be changed through your comments.

I have been thinking of this energy as a natural energy or force in the same way magnetic energy is natural or electricity or radio waves are naturally manipulatable energies.

I think of this energy as necessary for physical, psychological and spritual health. As such, good maintainance of the energy meridians, chakras and energy levels in the body help promote health and growth in all these areas.

Therefore I assumed that we could target the energies as part of our physical, psychological and spiritual practice in order to promote well-being in all these areas.

I understand the dangers you indicate regarding reiki and the symbols, the use of the symbols has always been my one concern regarding reiki, they give the practice a magical/sorcery feel to it. But are there not other practices that could benefit us. I don't know, maybe taichi, tachyon energy pulses or some other ways of working with the energies without losing my grounding in Christ.

I want to stress that I am looking at incorporating these things into my Christian practice and not replacing my Christian practices with these things. But if I am wrong about the potential of doing this then I am open to being told so.