What is the goal of suffering as it concerns the Christian? Why are we called to suffer and to "carry our cross," as is so often said? What does this mean, and why is it thought of as a good in our tradition? To the same end, what does it mean to suffer empathically for another? Does our experiencing of another's emotions and pain somehow alleviate it for them? Is that a desirable end? Or is the empathic suffering more about us and our own growth in Christ?

In addition, why would God choose to use suffering and death as a means of victory and everlasting life for Christ and his Church?


Paul

quote:

Originally posted by myfutureself:
Why are we called to suffer and to "carry our cross," as is so often said? What does this mean, and why is it thought of as a good in our tradition?

During the first century, suffering had a very direct connection with Christianity in the form of the suffering of the martyrs. By suffering pain and death, while refusing to renounce their Christianity, the martyrs contributed to the spread and the very survival of Christianity. And we can see that still today, in some countries, where simply maintaining one's Christianity is to risk real suffering simply by virtue of the fact that one is Christian.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek:

During the first century, suffering had a very direct connection with Christianity in the form of the suffering of the martyrs. By suffering pain and death, while refusing to renounce their Christianity, the martyrs contributed to the spread and the very survival of Christianity. And we can see that still today, in some countries, where simply maintaining one's Christianity is to risk real suffering simply by virtue of the fact that one is Christian.

That's true, though to be fair, there are religious sects all over the world that are persecuted, tortured, and killed for their faith. Christianity I think has a somewhat unique relationship with suffering - whereas other religions typically look at suffering as a consequence of some kind of sin or offense to God, Christianity looks at it as a chance to grow closer to God.

Suffering for the sake of suffering, however, is something I don't think the early Christians would have been proud to find growing in their churches. Paul wrote not just of his ability to suffer for Christ, but of his ability to maintain a *steady* state of existence through both suffering and abundance. He actually preached a DETACHMENT or transcendence of notions such as pleasure and pain, to reach a state of equanimity or stoicism.

At the heart of Christian spirituality is the dynamic we call the paschal mystery, which is a participating in the process of death and resurrection of Jesus. That's why the symbol of the cross has been used since earliest times in reference to Christianity.

Jesus taught about this many times and in many ways:
- to gain life, you must lose it
- the seed that falls to the ground and dies brings forth new life
- his own death and resurrection

Paul, too, spoke of the cross as the "power of God" and even the wisdom of God that is foolishness to the world (1 Cor. 1: 18-25).

Baptism ritualizes our dying to sin and rising to new life with Christ.

Etc. etc. I'm sure you all know this.

- - -

In terms of Christian spirituality, we can say that life will bring suffering and so we don't need to wear hair shirts or anything like that to come upon it. The choices before us have more to do with the manner in which we suffer. Redemptive suffering -- borne in patience, faith, dependence on God, and ongoing commitment to love -- breaks us open and deepens our relationship with God and others. Non-redemptive suffering -- borne impatiently, with resentment, blaming, with addictive escapes, spreading the pain around -- closes us in on ourselves and grieves the Spirit.

Jesus shows us how to suffer redemptively. I have a whole chapter on this in my book, Jesus on the Cross: Why? (kindle version also available). The book also goes into the theology of the cross and reflects on how Jesus was dealing with sin and evil through his passion and death. I wrote it in the early 80s and would like to revise parts of it now, but I think it provides a good introduction to this topic.

Finding meaning in suffering is one of the most unique things about Christianity. It's not so much that we say that suffering is a good thing in and of itself, but that God can be found in the midst of suffering, and it's one of the ways God "grows" us.

Phil, I read your book about the crucifixion a while back, and it helped me a great deal to sort through the content it discusses. It perplexed me for a long time, why Jesus' death was able to do something good for us.

In a similar context, I'm interested in what effect empathically feeling the pain of others might have on those others, spiritually, emotionally, mentally, etc. Do you have any theories? Are we receiving energy from them, draining out the bad, so to speak, or maybe are we giving something to them, and the empathic feelings are simply a byproduct of the connection we've created? Or is this scenario of feeling other people's suffering empathically unrelated to the suffering of Christ?

I understand why Christ would have felt the suffering and sins of other people in the garden, and on the cross, because he was becoming available to us through love to commune with him and thereby become sanctified. I also can see how a deeper communion with Christ might lead to episodes of simply suffering spiritually in prayer as one becomes closer to the heart of Christ, which itself bears the pain of the world. But why would, as was mentioned in another thread, someone pick up the negative feelings of a stranger at a bus stop and believe this was somehow God's will for them? That it somehow was sharing in Christ's suffering?

To me this is simply a failure to care for regular psychic health and well-being. That is, learning to bring your awareness into yourself and keeping it where it's supposed to be, rather than having it floating around in other people's messes.

Paul, have you watched "The Green Mile"? Big John Coffee! Sin-eater.

I don't know that a person who is empathically open can help picking up on stuff from others, but that need not touch them at the core of their being, where we experience union with God. So we probably agree about that latter point; one does need to stay in one's skin and in one's soul.

The first beneficiary of redemptive suffering is the one who undergoes it, but others are helped as well, usually through relationship with this person. Beyond this, I think we are all stammering. In some manner, the human race is connected at a very deep level, perhaps via something like the collective unconscious. Through this and/or some metaphysical or spiritual medium, we can influence one another through our thoughts and prayers. I do not think anyone ought to ever ask to be given the sufferings of another, but if it so happens that through our empathic concern for them we receive some measure of their struggle, then it could be that we are assisting them in the carrying of their own cross.

There is that strange passage in Col. 1:24 about filling up what is lacking in the suffering body of Christ. I've pondered this many times and am not sure what it means. What do you and others think?

Phil wrote. "There is that strange passage in Col. 1:24 about filling up what is lacking in the suffering body of Christ. I've pondered this many times and am not sure what it means. What do you and others think?"

I found this article in relationship to the passage you posted Phil. I found what Father Dave had to say about it very interesting.
http://www.fatherdave.org/article/article_136.html

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mary Sue,

That was a great article, Mary Sue. Thanks for sharing it.

My ESV Study Bible points out that St. Paul uses the same construction in Philippians 2:30. The Greek word is hysterema. It's usually translated as "that which is lacking." But perhaps we can understand it as "that which is required." St. Paul's suffering is required by, necessitated by, the suffering of Christ. We need a Greek expert on this forum!