Shasha and W.C. mentioned occasionally locution experiences and that's what I'd like to talk about. I remember quite well what STA wrote about three kinds of inner words - from the demons, from ourselves and from God, and how to tell them apart, but I don't find it that useful.
I get from STA an idea that God's words inside are like an earthquake - she says that they become imprinted for ever and that they immediately have some impact; she gives an image of Jesus silencing the storm etc. But I wonder if there are also other kinds of God's words or is it automatically the unconscious.

At times I've been hearing inner voice, almost always during a deep prayer.

(1) it feels like not coming from me (it's different from thoughts and even "voices" known to me from the "voice dialogue" method by Hal/Sidra Stone)

(2) I know that it can be just something archetypal from the unconscious (that's my guess) - hence the feeling of "not from myself". I can't make it happen or force it to speak.

(3) the voice never says anything against the Gospel or the Church's teaching and it brings me closer to God. So I ruled out the demonic source.

(4) The voice is very helpful in the spiritual life - gives advices, supports, or just assures me of God's love.

(5) I can sometimes engage in a dialogue with it and the voice answers my questions.

(6) sometimes it has a "masculine", sometimes a "feminine" quality (which at first I immediately connected to the Holy Virgin Mary).

(7) It says those words as if "from God's pov", I mean it wouldn't say "God loves you", but rather "I love you". It was what made me think at first it comes from God.

(8) I experienced it only twice before, but since about a month it's become more often - closely connected to infused prayer.

Ok, I try to be very sceptical, because I don't want to end in any "talks with God" in three volumes... [Wink] But I thought maybe you could help me, with your experience, to clarify this phenomenon a bit. How to tell the difference between the unconscious and God? Is it even possible at all times?

Hi,

I found the 25th chapter of Teresa'a "Life" where she deals in detail with the voices (Chapter XXV.
Divine Locutions. Discussions on That Subject.). :

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/teresa/life.viii.xxvi.html

next chapter, 26, is informative, too.
If you have some time, read through this, it's not long, I will do the same to refresh my memory, and maybe we could discuss this a bit.

A skimmed through the text and I already see that this raises some difficulties. But maybe we can sort it out.
The main thing Teresa didn't know about is the Jungian unconscious psyche. So maybe we should consider this too. I read Jung so long ago that I don't remember details, perhaps Phil or others can contribute.

I think personal experiences are also very important here - if you feel like - share away

About Jung:

I remember that during his individuation process, which was somewhere around the WWI, he enjoyed contact with someone he called "Philemon". This Philemon was Jung's "spiritual director" at the time. Jung thought it was a manifestation of the archetype of Hermes - a young boy who leads the way into the esoteric knowledge (like in "Hermetica", an ancient esoteric manual of meditation). Jung used to see this Philemon, talked to him - like whole conversations!, walked in the garden, asked questions etc. So there were sensible visions involved, visual and auditory manifestations which had a life of its own.
Jung never thought this Philemon to be a separate entity, just a "part" of his unconscious, universal Self.
For some psychologists this sounds like a psychotic episode, but it's a good example of the power of the archetypal unconscious.
So especially the idea of "not coming from me" gets more light when we refer to Jung's experiences and theories.
If you want to add more about Jung or other people similar experiences, please do.

I'll try to do some work on this during the weekend, but I'm pretty busy, so it may take some time. But I'm excited about the topic, so...

The part of Teresa's teaching on the inner voices I have a problem with is the idea of the "word=deed".
During the two-year night I have had two quasi-locutions. First time, it was that I had a very agitated mind during meditation and was thinking about a problem with much anxiety. Suddenly, out of the blue, I heard in me words: "TRUST ME". And all anxiety vanished instantly, leaving a sense of peace and security, and a sense of God speaking to me directly. But it wasn't like a spiritual earthquake, just a powerful utterance and deep peace and comfort afterwards. And I still remember something of it.

The second time, however, wasn't like that. I was sitting during a sesshin, and it was towards the end, when I was sitting in the evening, in a deep samadhi. I had no thoughts, there was only silence, and suddenly I heard inside me said with a kind of power: "You don't belong to yourself".
I was a bit shattered and couldn't stop thinking about it. These words just repeated themselves in my head for the whole night. After a while I realized they came from a Paul's epistle (to Romans, I suppose). I talked to my master and he said it was from the unconscious. But it was fascinating that I wasn't reading that letter or even thinking about it before. It just came unexpectedly.
But the words weren't accompanied by peace, rather a sense of power and command. For a period of time I was afraid, because I "didn't belong do myself" and was scared that God will want me to do something crazy.
But he didn't say anything else.
The problem is that I don't know what was the purpose of this locution, if it was from God. It didn't have any discernable positive effect apart from the fact that I felt someone "Other" speaking to me with power. Maybe it is an effect, but...
So these just don't fit to Teresa's lofty descriptions of locutions. But maybe they don't have too...

now I'm going to bed, but later I will write sth about my recent experiences, which are more puzzling.

Ok, I can't sleep, so I continue...

Recently, the inner voices became more frequent in my prayer time. First it was very much like two previous events. I heard a feminine voice during a deep prayer which I felt belonged to Mary. Instantly after that I heard a certain short prayer going on and on in my mind without my effort and I felt that I was given this prayer by Mary herself. There were other elements of this important experience, but I was sure that there was a divine locution there.

But there is a frequent voice which has a "masculine" quality and is different from the "feminine" (Mary's?) voice. He utters words with much power, in a sort of fatherly way, also answering my questions. It's not accompanied by any special peace, love or any feelings of the kind, but sometimes the utterance solves my problem or helps a lot, so I'm grateful for that. Once I heard in a deep prayer "I love you, my son" and it was very important for me. Another example is: during a state where I couldn't move due to deep prayer while being in church I asked God to release me, so that people wouldn't notice that I'm behaving weirdly. I heard: "Submit to my power". It was spoken with authority and I stopped fighting, just let go. After a while, He released me.

My problem with the voice is that e.g. once it spoke not in a very lofty manner, but saying informally sort of "don't try to be smart" (I can't find an English equivalent of the Polish expression, but how would you feel if you heard in a locution sth like "don't freak out"?? Not very biblical, isn't it?)

But, on the other hand, why God has to fit our ideas about Him? I think that locutions are always filtered through our own conditioning, so it is possible. I remember that St. Faustina Kowalska heard from Jesus many things that after II Vatican Council are rather unacceptable. For example, Jesus talked to her about "heretics and schismatics" referring to Protestant and Orthodox brothers and sisters. So I was quite amused seeing a kind of "censorship" of Jesus words in an edition of Faustina's "Diary". Of course, Jesus spoke to her, but the words she heard were in Polish and imbued by her pre-Vatican II religious conditioning.
So maybe the verbal and linguistic form of a locution event is not that important. Rather - the effect of it?

Another problem with the voice is that it answers my questions, so there are short conversations. It just seems somehow wrong to me - I don't feel worthy of "talking to God" in this way. I don't remember if there are descriptions of dialogues during locutions in our tradition...?

But it might well be that there is an authentic locution, and then I start to act and distort the experience, sort of "taking it over", if this is possible.

When I look at Teresa's criteria, I must say that there is no effort on my part and the feeling of "other", so it doesn't feel like my intellect is producing the words. It's not easy to ignore and it has an impact on me, but lesser than for example a sudden infusion of Love (this sounds wrong too...).

So I just don't know... maybe I'm "trying to be smart" here, to quote one of the voice's utterances, but I think better be sceptical than deluded.

W.C.,

you really think it's not possible that archetypal energies in our unconscious psyche appear to us as an "other" and speak to us from beyond? Then, what are visions of Tibetan deities and dakinis, and tantric gods and goddesses? Are they angels or demons? I sort of suppose they are vivid manifestations of archetypes. When we see Jesus, we believe Jesus appears to us. But when we see Buddha, then what is happening there?

Who was this Philemon that talked to Jung? Jung himself considered him to be a projection of an archetype, but it really seems like a different entity when you read about it.

w.c.

quote:

And then there's real evil, which also has the character of a separate "other." Whereas the split off parts of the psyche seeking integration respond positively to compassion and welcome, evil abhors love and always appears to me as degrading/malicious/sadistic.

I wonder w.c. wether this is not a little dangerous to assume that evil will always come in a form that abhors love and always appears degrading/malicious/sadistic.

Why then do the scriptures warn us that evil can appear as an angel of light?

I once had an experience of a locution with which I could speak. The experience lasted for what seemed like hours and had an extremely powerful impact on me at the time - However the voice (which i understood to be God) told me I was Moses reincarnated, that I was the archangel michael, that drugs were good and that I should continue to use them as they would lead me in my search for truth and understanding. It showed me my whole life and gave me new understanding into things that had happened to me. All the while I was surrounded by a feeling of love and warmth (except at one stage when I looked into the mirror and my face deformed 3 times, each time looking more grotesque and evil and after I 3 times denied the reality of the deformation it stopped). The whole experience ended with a feeling of being lifted up in a cloud of love being told that I was loved and then as the feeling of love faded I felt myself being brought back down and the experience was over.


Now, at first I thought this experience was from God. Then after I became a Christian I thought this experience was from a demon. Now I think it was either myself or a demon!

Jacques,

thanks for sharing your experience. I am moved by it.
STA writes that Satan can appear as the angel of light, but it's never like true contemplation, much superficial, and, more importantly, afterwards there are clear signs that it was the Enemy: soul feels agitated, or without energy, or anxious etc. As far as I understand STA, she emphasized very strongly the EFFECT that any experience has on our moral and spiritual life. So if an experience makes us more loving and open to God, it simply cannot be from Satan. He is not that stupid to bring people closer to God! In Goethe's "Faust" there's this sentence that Mephistopheles is the force that eternally does good deeds, while desiring to do evil, but Goethe is hardly a Church's Doctor .
When I was reading your description I had no feeling that the experience was somehow potentially bad for you, so I don't think it was from a demon.

However, as you know, the problematic part is reincarnation references and other things that go against the Church's teaching. But, as I mentioned above, even messages from God must come through our conditioning. If someone believes in reincarnation, it's possible this colors his/her visions/locutions.
So maybe God chose to cover the message of love and understanding with all the New Age symbolism you mention, so that you could receive it at this time. Does it sound right to you?
But it might well be an emergency of cosmic/kundalini power, giving you support and knowledge you needed.

W.C.,

as I read you post, I think that we come again to a point where we have to say that once we experience something supernatural, it just has this quality of not of this world. Maybe this is the ultimate sign to discern locutions.
When I first experienced the uncreated love descending from heaven I was just sure it's not from the depth of myself, it's from beyond. It seemed so obvious that - to paraphrase Augustine - I'd rather doubt that I exist than doubt that. But of course it can't be explained where the conviction of supernaturality comes from. You just probably have to have both experiences and then you can compare them.

Coming back to locutions. When they occur during prayer of union, I have this feeling that it's from God or Mary, because all my faculties are suspended and I feel like I do nothing, just hear the words in my head or heart. But at other times it doesn't have the same quality, though the voice sounds similar. Yet it's possible, as I said, that some part of me tries to "tamper" with the experience, for instance, faking or imitating the voice at times.

I also want to write sth about "voice dialogue" by Hal and Sidra Stone. It's a Jungian method, with some Gestalt additions, which can be a therapeutic tool, but it's not a therapy per se. The method is simple, there are some basic, universal "voices" (parts of psyche) in us, like controller, protector, vulnerable child, pusher etc. The point is to allow them to speak, instead of keeping them in a basement. So pretty simple and reasonable. During the process it's good to sit in different places while speaking different voices or change bodily posture. Usually a voice has a bodily expression of its own.
The method brings a lot of clarity, and it helped me a lot to accept different parts of myself.
The Stones also deal with some transpersonal or spiritual voices which represent higher potential of our nature, but still are parts of us, even if open to transcendence. Genpo Roshi used it to create his Big Mind process, in which the enlightened mind is given its own voice and this usually brings about the experience of enlightenement, even if for few seconds.

So in that voice dialogue I discovered many parts of myself or knew them better. No-one seems to be like the inner voice I wrote about here. I thought of a "father-voice", kind of "parent" in Transactional Analysis, but it's not that at all. The "father" is simply judgmental and is an introjected object which doesn't feel like "from outside". Another guess of mine was a "wise therapist" - the voice which can harmonize other voices and energies, intelligent, compassionate and accepting, maybe it's also an introjected therapist figure, but I think it's rather an inner wisdom everyone possesses. The voice's been very helpful at times, but it doesn't sound like the Voice and it's simply "mine", in my control.

So the two voices I sometimes hear, the feminine (always accompanied by "Mary vibration", which is distinguishable for me, because I remember well the first time I felt Mary's presence and I'm pretty sure that's her) and the masculine (Jesus? guardian angel?), are a good gift, even if I don't fully understand their source and I have my doubts about them.
Perhaps I could just suspend my judgement and leave it alone. If good things come out of it, who cares about what is the nature of it - natural or supernatural?

Looking forward to hear more from the rest of you

Hi gang. Just to let you know I'm in the midst of a workshop for training spiritual directors and so haven't been able to keep up with the discussions. I'll catch up soon.

Thanks, mateusz, for starting this discussion. It was certainly relevant for the divinity/consciousness topic (as w.c. noted), but as we're seeing here, it also raises a few new issues concerning discernment.

I'll recommend for now some of the guidelines the Church has put forth for dealing with private revelations.
- http://catholicplanet.com/apparitions/discernment.htm
Perhaps there's something relevant -- a least concerning how one deals with the message of inner voices.

About a week ago I heard "forgive" as I was driving home from work and the word forgive or forgiveness now seems to be behind every thought. This word came out of the blue, not from a sermon I heard, or Scripture, or spiritual reading. In fact, I have been trying to see the truth of what I am experiencing, and not judge whether I am a victim or offender, and not necessarily "do" anything about it.My spiritual director says that the Jesuits call this sort of experience before First Cause, as coming from God without any cause (sermons, etc.), and the fact that it has no cause is a way of discerning that it has come from God. I feel on another track in life. It sometimes takes me awhile to let the forgiveness take hold of me as it were, especially if I am overwhelmed, and I feel badgered by people, but the forgiveness seems relentless, and I feel blessed right now by this one word.

Hi W.C.

As a spiritual director and trainer of spiritual directors, we have begun to use Big `mind Big `heart' discernment of inner voices as part of our training programme.

I agree its essential that we know ourselves fully before providing companioning.
Clare

Hi folks,

Nice to hear you all sharing on this. Very good issues about discerning those voices. I'm in agreement with w.c. on many folks attributing to God or the demonic what is coming from within, and I like your list of lacks that make us vulnerable to the demonic. Could you clarify though about the items, "sorrow" and "regret." Do you mean the lack of sorrow and regret?

And I agree with Jacques that the demonic can be disguised as beautiful, loving, true and still a grand deception. It doesn't sound by your testimony, Jacques, that you could have produced those feelings of love on your own, but were a product of the wild and wooly supernatural world wherein all sorts of divine counterfeits rule.

I've been blessed with hearing God's voice quite clearly a few times. One dramatic example is last year when I was at the Catholic Church and I felt moved to ask a particular woman to pray for me. I did not know this woman at all except that I had seen her at a charismatic healing conference the weekend before, and I felt drawn to the way she was praying. Anyway, I approached her and asked if she would pray for me. She said I could take down her phone number and give her a call so we could set something up in the near future. I jotted down her name, which I didn't know before, and number on a piece of paper. We said good-bye and I turned away to walk out of the church. In an instant, the Lord spoke to me in a clear command. He said, "Ask her to be your spiritual director!"

I was totally taken aback. I had not seriously considered obtaining a spiritual director, though I was clearly overdue by about a decade! I wasn't closed to the idea, per se, but not near pursuing it either. So when the Lord said that, I thought, yeah, but what if she doesn't do that sort of thing? How can I ask a perfect stranger to engage in something so serious? What if she's just a librarian or school-teacher and thinks my request is out of order? on and on went my protests. So, then with my eyes wide open and walking towards my car, I literally experience the Holy Spirit come down over me, like a gentle covering and with it I could literally 'see,' in the Spirit, this woman praying in tongues, sitting on the floor, words of praise and love gushing out of her uncontrollably. Then this Grace lifts off of me and the vision is gone. I think to myself, I just better call her and do what the Father asked me to do. So I get in my car, dial up her number and stammer out my request following by a bunch of apologizing for my being so forward, etc. I manage to get clear and say, "Do you even know what spiritual direction is?" She responds calmly, "Yes, as a matter of fact, I just received my certificate in spiritual direction last June." Well, you can imagine that relationship has been fruitful.

It's amazing to me that God so clearly directed me to this woman. I don't think I would have picked her out if the Father wasn't so direct. I would have taken a more rational approach and considered what qualities I thought were important issues for me in selecting a spiritual director. I would have chosen someone who was married or at least knew what it was like to raise children. I would have wanted someone who had kundalini experience or was at least knowledgeable about that. Yet, this woman meets none of these criteria, but God knew what was best and I thank Him often for bringing her into my life!

Since then, I've wondered on and off if I could be so blessed and highly favored of the Lord that He would instruct me in all areas of my life, that He would literally speak to me all the time. To hear God speaking to us has got to be one of the most wonderful gifts we can imagine, yes?! Would that we could all earnestly desire such intimacy with our Maker!

I suspect that the greatest obstacle to this becoming a reality, for me, is mostly my lack of surrender, holding on to the fantasy that I need to be in control or relying too much on my own understanding. But, Praise Jesus, the Lord will break through our limitations.

Big Mind was a powerful process for me. I became interested in this about a year ago, when I watched Genpo Roshi doing this on the youtube. So when Diane Hamilton, his disciple and one of Wilber's co-workers came to Poland in April, I went to her Big Mind workshop in Cracow. It was a great experience, and I think I needed it at the time.

On the one hand there was clearly some good facilitation, if not transmission, of the transcendent states of awareness, while Diane was asking different voices to speak. It also helped me to differentiate various shades and aspects of the Mind, such as "non-seeking mind", or "non-grasping mind" or "Big Mind". I saw better the states to which I'm attuned and some aspects I just had a glimpse of. So it was very enlightening.

On the other hand, the fruitful part for me were also "dualistic" voices, bringing attention to different parts of the psyche. I felt that the process helps me to accept those parts and let them show and speak for themselves. And that when they are accepted and they speak, their energy is much more harmonized. It was what I needed at the time. Later I also watched couple of times a DVD with Genpo doing the process and I read his book on the subject.

Later my interest in Big Mind finally gone away, though I think it can be very good.
I was asking myself questions about nature and grace in this case. I knew that Big Mind is not God, because it's clearly a part of ourselves which can be accessed fairly easily in the process, but that questioned my ideas about knowledge of God which comes almost automatically by our knowledge of ourselves. Now I don't think that anymore, but at the time it was a puzzle.

I also gave some thought to the Big Heart voice. It was always moving to be that voice, because of the tenderness, sadness, love and compassion that I felt and saw others feel when in that. Once I experienced a power of Big Heart during a group therapy session, where I was very angry at a person, and at the same time I felt love and acceptance flowing from my Big Heart. So there were two simultaneously possible.

I was wandering if Big Heart is God's love and I wasn't sure (again, it's accessible "naturally", it's in us). But after my recent reconnection with God's grace and his Love, I know that Big Heart is a natural love. This is fascinating however, that this love that emanates from our heart naturally can be that powerful, we really have a "good heart" deep inside, not using it usually or even repressing it for the whole lifetime. Yet, when compared to God's pure and heavenly Fire, it's different. I can't explain the difference, but I feel it very clearly. It's amazing, though, what amounts of goodness can be done if people awake to their Big Heart.
I suppose it's something like awakening of the heart in kundalini process, but without relation to personal God. Compassion of Big Heart is towards people, it doesn't have to do anything with God - as in mahayana Buddhism, for instance.

Nonetheless, the voices in Big Mind are clearly different experiences that locutions. We attune to a voice and we start to speak from a voice, knowing that it's a part of us, that we are the voice. It feels to me like "speaking" instead of "listening" - referring to Teresa's description of inner voices. In Big Mind we speak.

Shasha,

thanks for your story. You know, it's great, because I've just had an experience which has some similarity to yours! I was just smiling reading your story... I was looking for a spiritual director, and I had an image of a certain woman. It was not a locution nor a vision, just a thought, but I almost don't know this person. We worked together for some time and we talked maybe once. Yet I felt intuitively that she is a considerably sanctified person and God would want me to ask her. I had the same doubts: does she do it? maybe she isn't a director? maybe she doesn't want to try this kind of relationship? etc. etc.
But when I asked, it turned out that she does this and she was surprised that I asked her, not knowing her at all.
So as you say, God is wonderful in helping us and leading us in the shadow of his grace...

quote:

Originally posted by mateusz:
[qb] ... For a period of time I was afraid, because I "didn't belong to myself" and was scared that God will want me to do something crazy.
But he didn't say anything else.

[/qb]

This is just my bias, not nec. some divine knowledge, but here's how I'm hearing your story:

You were sitting in sesshin meditation consulting with a Buddhist master on how to achieve enlightenment...hmmm...

and God interupts your deep samadhi and speaks with power and command, "You don't belong to yourself"--a verse you associate with St. Paul's teaching on belonging to Christ Jesus. (You hear this because Jesus' sheep do hear His voice.)

And now you're scared, maybe a holy fear, yes, because your conscience is disturbed? You don't belong to yourself, you have no right to pursue self-centered ambitions. Did Christ Jesus die so that you could sit in samadhi? Was God's voice pushing through to alert you to your folly?

I hope you don't mind my speculating here...feel free to reject it I offer it in a good-natured, loving way...no contempt behind my words.

quote:

Originally posted by mateusz:
[qb] Shasha,

thanks for your story. You know, it's great, because I've just had an experience which has some similarity to yours! I was just smiling reading your story... ...
So as you say, God is wonderful in helping us and leading us in the shadow of his grace... [/qb]

That's pretty cool. What a coincidence, eh? What Grace again...

And I didn't mean to imply above that hearing God's audible voice is the only way we are blessed by His guidance, comfort etc. He clearly withdraws His voice too so that we are driven out of dire need to seek one another's counsel, forebearance, forgiveness, and thereby grow in love through His mystical Body of believers.

I rarely hear voices or have locutions. I can, of course, hear a message when invited to do a journal exercise -- "what does God want to say to you at this time?" -- but I'm never sure if it's God or just a creative expression on my part. I do experience songs with just the right message coming to mind at just the right time, and consider them graced guidance. Also, insights, intellectual visions, etc., which just seemingly "pop up" or appear in my mind, usually in response to sustained searching or inquiry. Sometimes, too, I simply pray for guidance and do spiritual self-talk -- affirmations, of sorts -- usually reminding me of the basics.

My general sense about locutions/voices/thoughts is that it's not always easy to tell "who's who," and maybe it's not even that important. St. Ignatius Loyola is generally considered the great master teacher on discernment, and he simply focused on whether something was of the good spirit (it leads us closer to God) or the evil spirit (leads away from God). Either one could have impulses/thoughts originating from other spirits, self, other people, books, messages from the culture, etc. The good spirit produces inner peace and leads to growth in the gifts and fruits of the Spirit; the evil spirit might produce a sense of excitement and thrills, but only in the short run, leaving one weakened and more self-centered after awhile. Sometimes it seems there are both, good and evil spirits, at work within; sorting out the wheat from the chaff can be difficult, and often we just have to walk with both for awhile, until we're given guidance on how to proceed.

Shasha:

Now I'm more used to your style, so I'm assuming all the good intentions behind your words...

It's always good to hear feedback, so thanks, but I have a conviction that God sort of allowed me to do Zen and it was a "plan B" which I could realize if I decided to. But He was constantly inviting me to the "plan A", and recently the invitation was so compelling that I just joined the party... I suppose the "you don't belong to yourself" can be understood as an event of breaking through the samadhi, possibly. Similar experience was when I was sitting in Ann Arbor (coincidence? ) and practicing koan MU at the time. And suddenly I was taken into light and love for half an hour. The experience was basically against the purpose of MU which is concentration and the clarity of present moment, and here, I was given love without contact with my body and senses. But I don't judge myself as a lost sheep who didn't want to come back to the Lord, doing nasty Zen outside of His flock Probably, just prancing around (the sheep) while the Lord waited lovingly and sent messages and invitations now and then, knowing what will happen eventually.

I can remember that I had an impulse, after every strong non-dual experience, to relate to God as a Person, to say something to Him in my heart, just making sure that He's there for me. Sometimes I judged this as an ego's fear of non-duality, which it actually might have been, but the fear was that of losing God-with-me, Jesus, and it's good that I didn't, that I remembered about Him especially after the experiences of boundless existence. So I do feel faithful to Him, of course, with all my sinfulness and unfaithfulness as well. It's like in a yesterday's Gospel: I believe, Lord, help my lack of faith!

He helps...