Phil, Terri et al - There is an interesting thread running on the Birth Control in the Catholic Church Forum, which I host on my discussion board facility but which is run by the Editors of another website (having to do with the same topic) that I wanted to bring to your attention. It is called Issues of Gender & Sex in Christianity - What is the root of the problem? .

I'm not trying to divert traffic over there, mind you as, quite frankly, the topics over there would likely be considered rather stale unless one is still involved in Pre-Cana ministry and the owners seem to be far more tolerant of trolls than Shalomplace moderators

I made some points that suggest that there is a great commonality between Marian and Trinitarian spiritualities, especially regarding hiddenness and unobstrusiveness, that some may wish to discuss here (not that you wouldn't be welcome to post there, I'm sure). If you haven't visited that Gateway to Dialogue forum, yet, please do, especially my Catholic Portal website . It got over 10,000 page views in its first 30 days! I don't spend much time over there as it is not intended to be interactive (except for guest forums) and Shalomplace remains my cyberhome

At any rate, I thought the humility and scandal of the Incarnation, that runs through the above-mentioned thread, would be a timely topic for Advent.

pax, amor et bonum,
jb

JB, I just read your post, there and especially liked your following comment: So, too, when I look at Mary, in her hidden life with Jesus and in her apparitions throughout the centuries, I feel led to follow her example of unobtrusive effectiveness. His Word goes forth and accomplishes what it was sent to do with no breaking of bruised reeds, no quenching of smouldering wicks, no shouting in the streets, no clinging to Divine attributes as if they were something to be grasped at. It's not a gender thing but an approach we might all consider.

Not all are called to take on prophetic roles in the sense of public and publicized protest. Mary works for the reign of God by simply pointing to what is good, loving, and truthful. If both men and women follow that way, then peace and justice take care of themselves in due course, and without great controversy.

So let the Bishop pray to Wonder Woman to help intercede for his needs and see how well that goes! I'll take Mary, thank you very much.

Oh, and congratulations again on your new web site and forums. Lots of incredibly great links there. I've bookmarked several that I now visit regularly.

Hi JB, Phil ,

As to the Wonder Woman, Mary, post on the other board...I'll take Mary, thanks . There are so many things I love about her and believe to be important examples set forth by her. Though I don't have all the historical and Traditional teachings of Mary in my background, there is much in scripture alone that bears paying attention to, if anyone does so with an open and receptive heart.

What greater example of saying "your will, Lord, not mine" is there than Mary's acceptance of the path God has chosen for her. I think few people understand just how great a task Mary was called to. In that day and time, pregnancies outside of marriage were commonly taken care of by stoning...brings to mind being persecuted for Christ's sake...something we're all called to do.

What an instruction is given us in the scripture "she kept all these things in her heart and pondered them"? How often do we forego "pondering" to leap ahead into the "open mouth, insert foot" way of conducting ourselves. Mary's example of listening, meditating, and waiting are so important..at least in my humble opinion.

I love the Magnificat...what words..what understanding...what glorification of God. If only we would all be so in tune to our faith!

During this time of year, my thoughts are often brought to Mary, Joseph, and the baby who became my Savior. I can't imagine being a young woman in this position, nor her betrothed who was so devout with a heart for following God's will. And what of the baby who's very existence changed the world!

Yep...I do believe, I'll take Mary's example .

God bless you all and have a joyous Christmas Season.
Terri

This is a bit out of my realm, but, Phil, you pulled an interesting quote of JB�s from the link and I think I�ve got an even better one.

Jesus wasn't the type of Messiah that Judas and the Zealots were looking for then and Mary isn't the type of wife and mother that the radical feminists are looking for now.

As an outsider who naturally has a different perspective on all this, this says it all to me. And I must say that all of your eloquent defenses of Mary, as well as pointing out the different types of personalities and behaviors that are strong and forceful without being overtly kinetic, were instructive. Having ideals, even conforming to them, is all well and good except when those ideals serve to smother the individual. Ideals are there to make US better. When they serve some other purpose, such as to increase the power or influence of others, then, at least in my mind, they are suspect.

Ideas, like those of Bishop Spong, show a lack of respect for individuality and are exposed as such by this notion of Wonder Woman being the ideal female. This shows the absurdity of political correctness that, in its supposed attempt to rectify the wrongs of the past, makes objects of us all. We are not beings in their eyes, we are social statements! No doubt there was a time � still is a time � when the bold, forceful female was sure to ruffle some feathers, and I don�t think the oppression that occurred because of this can be ignored. But this is no excuse to re-write history and to besmirch the courage and strength, as Phil, JB, and Terri have pointed out, that is of the �unobtrusiveness and hiddenness� kind. Sorry � but, once again, the real intolerant party is revealed. But I must be honest: even though my understanding of Catholicism is rather shallow you�re going to run across this kind of garbage as long as women are excluded from the highest offices of the Church. But that�s another subject and to touch it further will require a ten foot pole, and I�m all out of them right now.

This shows the absurdity of political correctness that, in its supposed attempt to rectify the wrongs of the past, makes objects of us all.

Very well put, my friend. And as you noted, we are indeed all individuals..ain't it grand!

Blessings,
Terri