I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

How many of us are familiar with this verse in Isaiah?.

Here is a poem to share:

To go in the dark with a light is
to know the light.
To know the dark, go dark.
Go without sight, and find that the dark, too,
blooms and sings,
and is traveled by dark feet and wings.
Wendell Berry

Feel free to share your views

Sorry Danny. Just saw that you had a thread by this name already. Phil can move this post unto yours, or delete it.

There are many mysteries in the Holy Bible, but there is no greater mystery than the fiery Cloud of Yahweh, the Lord God. It led Israel out of Egypt and throughout their journey to Canaan, the Promised Land (Ex. 40:34-38). Yahweh's voice spoke the Ten Commandments from this fiery Cloud as it sat on top of Mount Sinai (Ex. 19:16), and 20:21, And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. The fiery Cloud also resided between the wings of the cherubs above the Mercy Seat in the most Holy Place of the tabernacles (Ex.25:22, Lev. 16:2; Num. 7:89).

This Cloud appeared to the prophets (Ezk. 1:4, 28, 10: 3-4) at the transfiguration of Jesus on Mount Tabor (Matthew 17:1-5), and at His ascension to take Jesus into heaven (Acts 1:9-10). Apostle Paul said that God is a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29). Finally, Saint John the Divine said in Revelations: "Behold He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail for Him (Rev. 1:7)". So this Cloud has some great symbolic significance to humans.

I also found that in Revelations 10, 1. "And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire."

From all these revelations throughout scripture we find that there is a divine purpose of this Cloud that Jahweh, Jehova, God, chooses to clothe Himself and surround Himself with. Since Jahweh is a consuming fire all of humanity looking at God, would most likely disintegrate and burn into cinders being contained within the structure and molecules of our human physical bodies. Not just the whole of humanity but every created thing on this earth would ignite and be absorbed into God's consuming fire. So it may well be God's love for us that He shrouds Himself within a dark cloud and for Him to wear this cloud like a cloak of protection for us and earth.

On the thread Discussing Jesus, Jim Marion, quoted Yogananda as saying that no human incarnation could contain the total fullness of God, and because of this Jesus as the incarnation of the Son of man and the Son of God would have been unable to be God in human form and would not have been able to hold within Himself the full Light and fire of God's Spirit energies. I respect Yogananda who has human, scientific, and medical assertions together with deep spiritual insight in claiming his assumptions. We must understand that God being God can do anything and that is my claim in stating that Jesus being one with the Father and the Holy Spirit shared that Light with Them and had same contained within his human body which was also Divine. The truth will be known to us as we stand before the throne of God.

So the Lord our God is Light, a consuming fire, Spirit, and for our protection of our being in physical bodies and His great love for all of His creations He shrouds Himself in the fog like substance of a dark cloud which dims His light to the necessary degrees that we can tolerate His Light without totally being consumed by His fire.

So no man can approach God's Light without the clothing of this dark cloud, which protects us from the great power of looking directly into His Light.

More to follow.

How about sharing your views about this Cloud that surrounds our Lord God.

In Psalm 18, David tells us of this cloud. David says that God made darkness His hiding-place and covering and His tabernacle around Him dark water in the clouds of the air.

During the dark night of the soul, the soul journeys through these dark waters and goes forth from itself and from all created things to the sweet union of love of God, in darkness and secure.

As Christians we are told in scripture that upon death we enter Heaven, purgatory or hell. Our rewards received upon death depend upon the life we have led here on earth.

As my quickened spirit in the new birth and kundalini transformation is progressing I find that the states of consciousness of Heaven, purgatory and hell are also here on earth. These are states of consciousness that come into being by the lives we lead.

Yesterday, I received a call from an old friend who is in a state and place of hell. As I listened to her sufferings and agonies, I offered a loving heart and ear, but also knew that the only thing I could do for her is to pray for her. She has had 30 years of counselling and has been unable to remove the threads that bind her like a spiderweb choking her life from her. The dark night of the soul and her faith and love for Christ have not opened a door of freedom into light. The years pass and darkness enshrouds her deeper and deeper. Unless the graces of God penetrate and intervene, she may continue in this state of consciousness upon her death. It is not everyone who passes through the dark night of the soul embracing our beloved Lord God in His redemptive love and is given light for their soul. I pray for my friend with the ardent hope and desire that she may be led from the unreal to the real into God's redemptive mercy and love. How helpless at times we all feel in our desire to help a fellow brother and sister in their great sufferings, and yet know that all we can do is pray for them. We must never give up hope within our faith and love for them and God.

Our connection and love for our Creator depends upon our states of consciousness together with the flame of love burning in our hearts for Him. Love alone without a healthy mind and consciousness can cloud our perceptions and reality of our lives and lead us down sinful paths robbing us of further light within our consciousness until the darkness becomes our Master.

From the moment of our birth, consciousness expands and is spent on the earthly life we lead. I am convinced that in a new birth and kundalini transformation the expanded consciousness is again lifted upwards into wholeness and awareness as we take on the mind of Christ. Daily we die to this world,and not I, but Christ lives in us. These continued hell states and purgatory here on earth are due to the inability to recapture the consciousness we have expanded outside of ourselves in our pursuits of fleshly desires and the lusts of the eyes, illusions and deceptions that captivate us.

Another level of existence devoid of almost all consciousness and is a state greatly disturbing to me, I encountered during a visit to a nursing home last week. Looking for a friend I was led to the dining room were the residents were served lunch. Upon entering the dining room I was taken aback by what I saw. I saw a group soul in a state of limbo, or what is called a in-between state of being. Most patients were 70 years or older. They sat before plates of food, unable to feed themselves. I looked into the eyes of many hoping for a sign of recognition or awareness as to their knowing were they were and what was expected from them in the eating of their food. I had truly come upon a group level of God's children being in the in-between state, limbo, not having moved on as yet, but still here on earth with us unable to live and function on their own. I wondered greatly as to their predicament and if their states of their decline in consciousness were caused by sinful life or has illness and a long life done this to these precious children of God. What came to me in the realization is that it is not God's intention for these adult children to live longer and longer, but that it is the intervention of medical science and greedy nursing home operators and medical professionals that keep them alive at all cost to cushion their wallets. So as medical science marches on the life expetency will be longer, but at what a cost to the dignity and quality of life for many of these blessed ones who I am sure are ready to move on in spirit.

In ending the point of my post today is to show that we experience heaven,light, hell, darkness and purgatory, in-between states right here on earth which continue upon death unless we receive our new birth and a renewing of consciousness by receiving and taking on the Mind of Christ.
How precious the gift of a pure consciousness with the flame of love burning within our hearts for God, renewal of spirit and light for soul.

As we are ready to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ this Easter, I ardently pray for His light of love to enlighten the souls of humanity, for us to be renewed in spirit, and to keep alive the flame of love and hope in our hearts for the human race, all children of the One God. Let us walk in the light as children of light.

Our connection and love for our Creator depends upon our states of consciousness together with the flame of love burning in our hearts for Him. Love alone without a healthy mind and consciousness can cloud our perceptions and reality of our lives and lead us down sinful paths robbing us of further light within our consciousness until the darkness becomes our Master.

Freebird, surely you tell of a quite extreme and compelling case of "stuckness". I believe there are a lot of reasons we become stuck. Every case is somewhat different. But I think it almost always is about gripping something too tightly. And especially if we have been severely wounded, we are bound to grip ourselves too tightly. The urge is to hold tight to what we perceive we have left, what we have control over, no matter how little that may be. And in doing so we thus resist outside influences, which is understandable because it was likely outside, uncontrollable, unpredictable influences that harmed us in the first place. But by hanging onto this strategy we stay stuck because it is precisely outside things that we need, and it is precisely change that we need even though we may feel deep-down that we are okay as we are and that it is the rest of the world that has to change. It�s easy to stay stuck. And as you said, our state of consciousness can cloud our perceptions.

It�s very very hard, but I believe that ultimately we have to let go of the death-grip we have on ourselves which is the very thing that is killing us. Most of the ideas that we cling so tightly to are likely B.S. And that�s okay. We don�t die if we have to let go of some or most of our ideas. We�re usually better off if we do, especially the ideas that are just flat-out false. But that requires a VERY REAL BELIEF that there is something underneath all that self-perception chicanery. We likely will continue propping up this vast and complex framework of ideas about ourselves and the world because we feel that�s all there is. If that collapsing then we have nothing. But I think we must be willing to let even this collapse in order to see that, indeed, not only is there something underneath our vast network of self-deceptions and misperceptions, but that that something is quite substantial and quite good.

But to make such leaps almost everyone needs a friend or mentor that they can trust. It�s very difficult to do this stuff alone. Hopefully your friend has someone nearby who can help. More importantly, hopefully your friend has someone nearby who she will let help her.

Yes Brad, my dear friend is a compelling case of stuckness. I am always there to listen, mainly listen, because only God and my friend's desire to be free from these chains that bind her can bring her into a new life and truth.

My friend is within a mother-daughter dysfunctional relationship which has crippled her to the extent of her regressing to being a small child. Some of the most devastating and enslaving relationships can be found between mothers and daughters; why and how the dynamics work within such cases is very delicate. It happened within my own birth family were my sister and my late mother had this crippling deathgrip upon each other, and my mother's death did not restore my sister to wholeness nor adult freedom. Being a mentor and friend to these individuals is certainly a great blessing and gift for them, but no one can make another see the reality of a situation nor take their hand in leading them away from same. It brings tears to my eyes just to discuss same. Even upon the death of one or the other, it seems there is no reconcilliation nor any new found freedom. As I mentioned, we always must do all we can for others, but the truth is that sometimes all we have left is our faith, hope, love and prayers for these suffering individuals in these destructive relationships.

Being a mentor and friend to these individuals is certainly a great blessing and gift for them, but no one can make another see the reality of a situation nor take their hand in leading them away from same.

I think you�re surely right, Freebird. These situations are difficult. Even death may not set things right. Dependency can be such a maddening cycle. The very things a person needs to break these cycles (individual coping skills and a sense of independent worth) are the very things that are lacking. Those are not things one can give to another, and are difficult, but not impossible, to put back in. Your friend is in my prayers as well.

Freebird, you may not want to make a whole conversation out of a friend's problems, but let me travel down this one sideline just for the moment and that will be it. The subject of dependency is something I know something about so if I can be of help to another, I will try. And if I were try to boil down the entire subject of interpersonal dependency into a single phrase it would be: Be brave enough to have your own preferences.

Implicit in that is the distinction that needs to be made between "defiance" and "choice". Those who attempt to control and manipulate others seek (usually unconsciously, I think) to equate another's free will choices with defiance. Implicit in that is that someone else's need or preferences should take precedence. But if one can be made to see that, despite whatever inrushings of guilt that might occur, that choice and defiance are two different things, then one can potentially be on the road to independence. Anyway, this is all rather basic stuff, I know, but one never knows if another, like your friend, has been exposed to an idea like this. It's simple enough to easily be passed over.

Very good input Brad. Feel free for further discussions so we can all learn from one another here on the forum.

You described my friend's predicament correctly. I try often to put myself into her place of being to see what choices are available for her. In said state of her being I experience a total helplessness and powerlessness, like a small child.

My friend is 47 years old, has 2 marriages in the past, is totally dependent upon her mother's income to live. She suffers from severe anxiety and a panic disorder to the point that she is unable to get into her car and drive by herself, nor is she capable at this point and time to look for work, have the strength to hold down a job and to function as an adult on her own. To try and make a living she has a consignment store reselling used clothing for women. She pays the rent on said store from her mother's income, goes to work there with her mother only one or two days a weeks, sometimes not at all for weeks, and yet the rent must be payed. Her mother allows her to do nothing in the house they live in which was bought with the mother's money. I could go on and on if same is necessary; all around what we have here is a small child in an adult woman who is totally controlled by her domineering mother. There are days in-between were they seem to get along and which appears like a honeymoon period, which unfortunately ends too fast returning into a life of turmoil and as you mentioned defiance by my friend toward her mother when she utterly dominates her daughter.

I have tried to express choices to my friend, which quite frankly she cannot understand nor is capable of acting upon same with her loss of self esteem and the dehumanizing force of her mother.

We are really talking here about the regression of my friend to a child like state. Whatever you can suggest in her situation would be greatly appreciated.

Whatever you can suggest in her situation would be greatly appreciated.

What I would suggest is probably the only thing that could ever bring peace and growth, and that would be for these two to sit down with a qualified counselor so they can get the unsaid things out in the open. Amazing healing can come from that. Suppose the mother could finally feel that is was safe enough to say something as vulnerable (and perhaps true) as: "I smother you because I need for my life to count for something. If I didn�t have you to try to take care of then I would have nothing." And perhaps the daughter could say "Mother, I love you and want to please you, and I need your help, but we must be partners, not master and servant. I won�t leave you if you treat me as an equal."

That�s just one scenario, but the likelihood in my opinion is that even if a clean break is made at some later point, this is a stage that would be useful and that could even lead to the obvious, which is the building up of an even more vibrant business (or outreach type of service) reselling used clothing for women.

Brad, I greatly appreciate all your input and heartfelt recommendations re my friend's dire situation I will continue to do whatever I can to help her, and do pray that a happy outcome will be possible for them both.

Sometimes they do remind me of a married couple where the husband abuses the wife, the police is called by her, and when the police shows up, the wife throws a fit of anger when the police threatens to take the husband away and put him into jail.

All relationships are so very delicate and can be so volatile at the same time. I am staying single the rest of my life and am overjoyed to be married to God.

All relationships are so very delicate and can be so volatile at the same time.

Yes indeed, but I'm learning that the more we need or require a person to be a certain way, the more volatile a relationship is. But the more we can give ourselves permission to be as we are, and let others be as they are (even if that means that they don't particular like us as we are and vice versa), the more volatility that is cast out of them.

And you're welcome, Freebird. I hope those two people get things straightened out soon.

Quote from Brad:

The subject of dependency is something I know something about so if I can be of help to another, I will try.

Brad, your words stayed with me. I do not recall previous posts by you discussing your dependency experiences. Should you have done so in the past, kindly refer me to these posts, if not, hopefully you will feel comfortable enough to share your situation and express as to how you handled same and what further steps you took to help you with your personal dependency needs. I would greatly appreciate same. We can learn so much from one another.

I do not recall previous posts by you discussing your dependency experiences. Should you have done so in the past, kindly refer me to these posts

Freebird, I think I�ve whined and complained all over these forums about that in one way or another for the past four years. I�m not sure there is any single thread discussing this. There are probably lots of them. Twelve Step Spirituality is a pretty good thread, as is Healing the false self.

�if not, hopefully you will feel comfortable enough to share your situation and express as to how you handled same and what further steps you took to help you with your personal dependency needs.

The truth is that I�m still working on it. I�ve tried several strategies:

+ Pounding my head against the wall

+ Trying to pound someone else�s head against the wall

+ Both of these strategies at the same time

That is to say, in short, what I know that doesn�t work is to do more of what I�m doing now, just in some new way. It�s tempting to think that I can somehow add something, subtract something, or to just do what I�m doing now better, smarter, or in some novel, creative way that somehow makes it truly different and thus effective. I�ve found that a great way to simply run in circles and to avoid true transformation.

In my opinion, effort and willpower are next to useless. One can�t barge one�s way into a new way of thinking and being. One can�t bully oneself into it and neither can one bully others. And note that "bullying" can be done in an almost infinite variety ways, most of them so subtle that we don�t usually think of it as bullying. But we�ll try to shame ourselves into a new way of being. That�s one of many ways that we may attempt to bully. We may try to shove a whole bunch of stuff onto our plate and try to act our way to a new way of being. That usually doesn�t work, at least not for me. But I suspect that those who are Type A personalities might indeed be able to rampage their way to a new way of being. But I remain skeptical.

I think making these kinds of changes requires, #1, a pretty big dose of humility. Our instinct is likely going to be that we have to put back something into ourselves, something that we have lost or was ripped out of us or that went undeveloped; that we have to be come bigger in some way. But what we likely have to do first is to lose some stuff, a lot of stuff that we�ve built up as a defense mechanism and just downright bad attitudes that masquerade as good things, such as self-righteous attitudes or a victim mentality. To step back and reassess, to lose a lot of arrogance and anger that has built up due to some hard knocks, is hard to do. But we likely need to step back and admit our ignorance, arrogance, stubbornness, and a whole lot of other things that started off as natural reactions against having one�s boundaries invaded but became toxic elements in their own right. And thus we have to make the transition from victim to acknowledging that one has likely been a subtle perpetrator, perhaps not in the same way that we were victimized, but likely we need to start taking responsibility for some of our own wayward behavior and not just think we are somehow justified in all that we do. In a nutshell, that requires a true dose of humility in my opinion. We have to be deflated before we can be built back up.

That�s where I would start, anyway. That�s where I have started to some extent.

quote:
And thus we have to make the transition from victim to acknowledging that one has likely been a subtle perpetrator, perhaps not in the same way that we were victimized, but likely we need to start taking responsibility for some of our own wayward behavior and not just think we are justified in all that we do.
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Absolutely!. The only exception here is the abuses against a child, but as adults we also have a part in our own victimization as you mentioned, by our subtle behavior or silent language, which we may be unconscious of in our awareness in any given situation. The dynamics of a victim and being victimized is a very fine line which invades boundaries of each other.

That is exactly where I started in my healing transformation. What worked for me is to return to a certain traumatizing event between myself and another as an impersonal observer. This takes tremendous courage and a readieness to be not influenced by deeply held grudges nor resentments. You must be ready to face your own shortcomings and lay aside any ego that could sway the truth that you are seeking. As an observer how your eyes are opened to a new reality of what really transpired within a given relationship between yourself and another. Thank God that there are times when we are the victim and really are innocent, but most of the time one will see the subtle tactics used by yourself in your desires, wants and needs in having stayed within a dysfunctional relationship. If you have not tried this before, I highly recommend same to you Brad and others on the forum. Wow, how our own imperfections shine like a beacon begging for a release.

The only exception here is the abuses against a child�

Well, if an abused child starts pulling wings off of butterflies or setting the cat on fire, we may consider the child less responsible for his or her actions than an adult. But we can�t excuse the actions of the abused child when he or she grows up and passes on the abusive behavior to someone else. To gain one�s life back, to regain morality, we must take responsibility for our behavior as our behavior. To stop the abuse, we must do so.

You must be ready to face your own shortcomings and lay aside any ego that could sway the truth that you are seeking.

Yes, and particularly, and especially, we must face our longcomings (to coin a word). If we are going to acknowledge our shortcomings then we�re just being falsely pious or even masochistic if we don�t also acknowledge and appreciate our goodness, our talents, our strengths, and our creativity. I have a very hard time with this.

As an observer how your eyes are opened to a new reality of what really transpired within a given relationship between yourself and another. Thank God that there are times when we are the victim and really are innocent, but most of the time one will see the subtle tactics used by yourself in your desires, wants and needs in having stayed within a dysfunctional relationship.

I�m not sure I understand what you�re saying, in whole. You may think that I�m saying that those who are abused are not innocent and are deserving of the abuse in some way or contribute to it. (And granted, that could be the case sometimes). But rather, I was saying that is it very likely that the deformation caused by being abused will likely turn us into abusers as well, no matter how subtly, especially if we think of ourselves as little more than victims. If we do so then we may think (as abusers do) that our actions are right and proper and not abusive at all. And thus abuse spreads because it flies under the "radar" of what we think is wrong.

But oh yes, surely as adults we get into dysfunctional relationships and we might indeed be innocent victims of sorts. But unless we take responsibility for our lives we might readily see how even in such circumstances we facilitate abuse and misery. There may not be quite as much "innocence" in us as we think. We might even be making a trade, for taking control of our own lives is scary. And so we might put up with abuse as the price to pay for avoiding those scary things known as authenticity and freedom. But to be fair, when we are abused, or come under the influence of abuse, we can truly get so lost that we just are no longer able on our own to handle freedom or to engender authenticity. Yes, we might need to take responsibility, but we might need much help to be able to do so. So I wouldn�t want to be in a position of blaming the victim, but I think we should be aware too that we are capable of more than we think at any given moment and that we will often remain in some quite awful situations, or will continue to inflict some quite awful behavior on others, because we will "punt" and deny the power we have, especially if it is convenient to do so in some way. We may play these little mind games, telling ourselves that we can�t help it, that there is no other way. And until we end this kind of hopeless, powerless, and frankly, defeatist thinking, there is no end to abuse. Abusers will continue to feel justified in their abuse, that it isn�t wrong, and victims may continue to profess powerlessness and innocence when they may indeed have choices and be a part of the problem. But, of course, if we are just all automatons and truly have no free will then none of this applies, of course. But again, I would be the first to point out that our free will and ability to make choices can become severely impaired. But it�s often difficult to distinguish this impairment from just downright immoral choices that allow one to remain a victim and thus to avoid all responsibility for one�s choices.

My post was very unclear in wording my answer to the following quote:
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The only exception here is the abuses of a child.
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Brad, you discussed taking responsibility in our victimization by stating that we sometimes are responsible for being victimized and having a part in such a victimization. How true!.

I fully agree with you and showed as to what I found works by my being an impersonal observer returning in space and time to traumatizing experiences.

But a child is a minor and when we as adults abuse and victimize a child, I feel this child is not responsible nor to blame in any way whatsoever for an adult's victimization and abuses. Yes, to holding this child responsible when as an adult he/she also victimizes and abuses.

Further comments on the other two quotes are forthcoming, but it has been a long day and I am running out of thinking fuel, so be patient, and be assured that the two other quotes will be replied to soon. I liked what you said, Brad, so my comments shall be sparse

But a child is a minor and when we as adults abuse and victimize a child, I feel this child is not responsible nor to blame in any way whatsoever for an adult's victimization and abuses.

Yes. I don�t think we could function as a society if we thought any differently, although the way children are sexualized so early these days, and the way that the pornography of violence runs in and through so much of what they are exposed to in movies, TV, and games, you�d think that as a society we were mostly paying lip service to the idea of children as a special category in need of protection. Add on top of that the idea that we can kill them if their lives are not convenient (aka "abortion"), then you�ve got a recipe for, well, read the morning newspaper.

Okay, rant over.

Hi Brad,

I am not ready to rant over the above just yet. Instead I want to address the rampant sado-masochism in our society. It isn't just the heavy metal newagers who knowingly engage in these practices, but abuses and enslavement among humanity are at a record high.

Could so many dysfunctional families be the cause of this problem. I am convinced that this may be a great cause. Like attracts like, and as the children from dysfunctional homes grow into adults and enter relationships and/or marriages, they will be drawn to what is familiar to them, dysfunction.

What are the answers to this growing phenonema?. How can we as a society re-educate these individuals who will continue this pattern of abuse within their own families without an end in sight.