I wonder if anyone has experience distinguishing between the light that often accompanies Kundalini awakening and the Uncreated Light; or indeed of the created light that fills the realms between the soul and the Divine.

Recently I have been aware of a light that is altogether softer and purer than the familiar light which courses through the body as Kundalini.

I wait for accompanying fruits of the Spirit to substantiate and confirm the nature of this light - a long wait perhaps .

Stephen, say some more about this light. Is there color . . . texture . . . a sense of presence?

I often rest in a deep, purple, flowing light that has a kind of liquid texture to it. It just seems to be "there," but there is a clarity of awareness in resting there, with healing, balance and restoration of energy. It seems to be more correlated with the 3rd eye and crown chakra than the heart, establishing in me a sense of equanimity.

There's a resonance with some of the descriptions of Taboric Light given by the Desert Fathers and the monks of Mt. Athos (Orthodox tradition). This has been going on for about 20 years, and I'm content to just let it be what it is without fully understanding.

It is a white light with silver edges which does indeed have a liquid texture, but it is quite elusuive and I have only just started experiencing it. There is a sense of security accompanying it and also a kind of all embracing quality, in that it often (I say often, although I've only experienced it on a handful of occasions) seems to fill the space I'm in, particularly outdoors. I haven't been able to rest in it yet as such, because it is quite fleeting, but I have the sense that it has been growing in or around me for a while in that there is a certain familiarity about it. As I say it is very soft and much less dense than any light I've experienced with Kundalini.

Stephen:

The Buddhists have a notion which is often translated as "Uncreated clear light." In my few experiences of it, it seems to be the light of awareness before any differentiation.

I'd like to order a spiritual white and purple bulb
and a three way switch including an "off" position,
please!

http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/ax...ransformed_part1.php

These are interesting ideas and comparisons. I've often thought about the light of awareness, w.c., but have always related it more to Kundalini awakening. I feel, however, this is something I'm absorbing from outside (or from inside, but belonging outside self, if you see what I mean), perhaps angelic, perhaps divine.

MM:

Thanks for the link.

I hear the archangel Gabriel is a top notch electrical outfitter, 24 hour call out, no hidden charges .

Hi Stephen- Hard to say. I was on the bus the other day and felt a white silvery light decend. It somehow made me think of the stars. As if the stars have their own energy. But it was cooling and brought about a sense of calm detachement from the body.

I have recently been doing self enquiry. One of things I do is simply to try to locate the "I." Usually what occurs is that I feel some sort of decent (especially when I think of Ramana) and this moves me into some state. It is as though there is a spherical energy behind the body that simply watches the body. When I am moved into this state the body seems not me.
I have noticed that when this occurs other currents in the body go on simultaneously. But I am not involved with them. They are simply the body doing its thing. I thus situate and able to delineate this new dimension of seeing/being as not Kundalini. In fact, I wonder if Kundalini arises from it.

This new experience I connect to a deeper level of opening in the third eye, where the awareness moves towards the back of the head, although I would not suggest that it arises from this point or that one could concentrate from this point to elicit the experience. I am sure they are somehow connected to my reading of Ramana and the enquiry itself. One of the other things I note is that I don't need to make an effort to get into this state. It depends on faith. I simply do the enquiry and don't expect anything. Usually later in the day this state kicks in. This is definitely beyond any state that I have touched in my life and seems like a grace. I wouldn't necessarily call it uncreated though. I hope some of this helps.

. . .I have recently been doing self enquiry. One of things I do is simply to try to locate the "I."

OK, Asher, in the interest of a metaphysical clarification, here: when you're trying to "locate the "I," then who/what is doing this searching . . . "directing" your intelligence and freedom to search . . . And how would you distinguish this "entity" (whatever your response will be) from the "I"?

My own view is that even this searching agent is the self, or "I," only not in as clearly focused a manifestation as in the 3rd eye "witness state." Does that make sense?

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] . . .I have recently been doing self enquiry. One of things I do is simply to try to locate the "I."

OK, Asher, in the interest of a metaphysical clarification, here: when you're trying to "locate the "I," then who/what is doing this searching . . . "directing" your intelligence and freedom to search . . . And how would you distinguish this "entity" (whatever your response will be) from the "I"?

My own view is that even this searching agent is the self, or "I," only not in as clearly focused a manifestation as in the 3rd eye "witness state." Does that make sense? [/qb]

Yes, certainly Phil. The searching agent is the self, moved by some other element. I would call the other element grace rather than an entity. To answer your first question: how would I distinguish this self-grace (self linked to grace) from "I," (I'm presuming that you mean the "true" I,) I would answer that I can't. I think what is occuring is that grace is showing me flashes of "I." Usually what happens is that the third eye seems to come in focus as a result of the decent. In order to explain this, I have to say that most of the time the "activated?" third eye is clouded by astral forces. The decent is not the true self, but it enables flashes into the true "I". What it does is create clarity so that one can get intuitive flashes into another dimension of being. This other dimension, I suspect, can be clearly seen when the third eye is "clear." This other dimension, which I said, was spherical-like and makes one look at the body as though it is an object; as through one is a starnger to the body, may in fact be the "I." I cannot say. It is another dimension that I connect to a kind of detachment, acceptence and allowing the currents (the two dimensional realm) to flow as they will. When one lives in the two dimensional realm one has no choice but to manipulate the life force and also manipulate grace. This other dimension (akin to seeing in 3D) is different. The self linked to Grace is still "false" self, but obviously it is better than simply the false self. I also am seeing that integration happens when attention is moving towards this. I believe that this dimension must be ever-present. Whenever I begin to move towards it, I feel something like surrender. Like my 2D life is in the hands of a higher power. This promotes integration. What also occurs is the currents in the two dimensional body increase in frequency. It is like opening another window, something more subtle is felt, even as the physical body with all its currents, with love goes on in 2D. There is effort still, but a kind of subtle effort. Does this make any sense?
When I say flash, I mean that momentarily, the "I" is seeing the body i.e. first it is a sense of strangeness with ones body (not disassociation, but, ironically a more GROUNDED state) finally, the one is moved into another self position. This seems to be the case. It is not 100% clear. What is clear is that there is this other dimension which enables some deeper integration. I'm trying to be as precise as possible.

PS My understanding of this is evolving, so I hope that you will bear with me. Please tell me if/where my thinking is off, if you feel like it. And it was not my intention to dominate this thread. So I apologize, Stephen.

You are welcome Spephen!

I like that link to.

Pressure is the head more or less all of time. Theresa of Avila and others have reported this.
Whatever I do to keep myself occupied during meditation, when it is good, very good, better and best is when I have this Amazing Grace taking on all
of my sin, sickness and suffering.

C.S. Lewis makes me shudder when he speaks of how annoying our sins are, and seem to grow only worse
as we grow older. Imagine what they would grow into after 100 or 1000 years of separation from God!

The Joy of being connected at all to something I am so unworthy of is getting back to the core of Christian experience. No hairshirts required. God sees me without sin through the Precious Blood of Christ, and I am increasingly free to love myself
if I dare.

I intend to learn a bit of yoga too, since the "k"
and I are apparently stuck with each other.

caritas, mm <*))))><

That's alright, Asher. You've got a lot of good stuff to say and I appreciate your analysis and enquiry. I was more concerned here with sensing something other, a flash, a wave, outside the self, but I don't mind where your enquiry goes because it relates to how and what we perceive. My main interest is, after the "higher senses" (third eye etc) have experienced light, how we then understand it. I feel the self, opened up by K or other spiritual/Spiritual energy, can pick up imprints of light, its quality, vibration and hence its origin. I mainly perceive it around the body or above the head or forehead. I've also experienced light related to my own consciousness but many times light which comes from outside the self. In most cases this has related to some other being/person, some good, others not so good, and is followed by some sort of telepathic experience; only once or twice have I felt something deeper, more profound impacting the soul, something which I couldn't quite label.

Hi Stephen,
Your description of a white light with the appearance of a liquid texture is something I also experience often inside my home and once or twice while taking a walk outdoors. It is an embracing loving light sourrounding me in peace and tranquility. I find it to be unpredictable in the regularity of it's appearance; there is no set pattern that I can think of. It does enter my body. The movement within the liquid texture makes me think of a loving spiritual being that desires to manifest and be seen by me. There is a total peace and love during these light appearances, which I have had so many now throughout the years. Light is such a powerful healing agent and, of course, a guide in our spiritual growth and advancement.

At times there is also the brilliance of the light surrounded by a zig zag pattern, electrical currents of living energy.

I often wonder, what light is really external from us, and what light comes forth from us to be seen. The Holy Spirit's huge Light of magnificence was seen externally from me surrounding me and witnessed by another, I wonder if The Holy Spirit's Light came forth from God's Holy seed breaking forth from the seed within my heart to be seen externally and then to re-enter my heart. It is all so wondrous, the Light and Love of God.

Phil mentions being bathed in a purple liquid light, and I also experience a beautiful deep blue light while working with one of my clients in my counselling practice.

Uncreated light is a miracle ready to reveal. I recall my state of being 10 years ago when medical tests showed that I was way, way above a normal radiation range within a human body, which could not be explained by medical science. Already building within me was God's Light formation of His great love.

Like Phil, I trust completely and surrender to God in all His goodness and graces.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb] That's alright, Asher. You've got a lot of good stuff to say and I appreciate your analysis and enquiry. I was more concerned here with sensing something other, a flash, a wave, outside the self, but I don't mind where your enquiry goes because it relates to how and what we perceive. My main interest is, after the "higher senses" (third eye etc) have experienced light, how we then understand it. I feel the self, opened up by K or other spiritual/Spiritual energy, can pick up imprints of light, its quality, vibration and hence its origin. I mainly perceive it around the body or above the head or forehead. I've also experienced light related to my own consciousness but many times light which comes from outside the self. In most cases this has related to some other being/person, some good, others not so good, and is followed by some sort of telepathic experience; only once or twice have I felt something deeper, more profound impacting the soul, something which I couldn't quite label. [/qb]

Stephen--

Interesting. I dunno. I guess it depends on what you mean by "understanding." I like to think that writing helps and talking to others helps me understand, or integrate. Yours may be to place it into a Christian framework, as Freebird alludes. My initial reaction was why does one need to understand, if it produces some sort of benefit to your life? Maybe faith, prayer and trust. Or simply being comfortable and in awe with not knowing. My two cents

Uncreated light, where art thou?
Uncreated light answers: nowhere
Nowhere answers: everywhere.
Everywhere answers: nowhere.
Ad infinitum.
Ad nauseum.
Kundalini says: let's break it to them.
God says: You're kidding?
Kundalini says: it was all like a game of dice.
God says: Kid me not.
Kundalini says: The Gods must be crazy
God smiles broadly.
Kundalini goes back to the ground not to found for 3 years. God is seen.
Kundalini goes back into the sky never to be found for 3 years. God returns to earth and has a picnic like in those Jehovah's Witness Edenic pamplets you discover at Union Station and when you open them you are swallowed up into knocking on doors and free university education and grandiose scheme to tell your neighbours. Righteousness, to you I bow. This faith, do not give me, Oh God, you say.
Kundalini rises like a tongue and meets the Spirit. You talk in tongues for a week and get
bored because you can't understand what you're saying and the newly arrived immigrant off the boat can't translate Greek into English so he follows you around like a shadow on the TTC and you too, are an immigrant from the stars. But this becomes annoying after a while and you only want to have a beer and to speak the language of "real" men as Marx says, so you begin to speak again. You take one step at a time. You stutter. Then she hits you again and you are, again, a moron. This is the wisdom of the world, your immigrant friend manages to say, before he merges back to your shadow.


(Something like this.)

grin.

I think a better word than "understand" might be "identify". And I think it's necessary to "identify" light because we need to know who or what we're dealing with; we need to be discerning, for our own sakes. At a human level there is light between us, the light of energy, consciouness, unified or indivualised, the light in enlightenment; at a spiritual level there is angelic light, demons coming as angels of light; there is the light of holiness and purity (1 John 1); then there is the uncreated Light of God, His Holy Spirit, Christ as Light of the world, the Light that gives light to everyman (John's gospel).

When I see light/Light what am I seeing? How is it going to affect me, challenge me, attack me, delight me? The whys aren't so important but the wherefores and wherefroms are?

I'm not sure how to chime in on this discussion, except that amidst all the "fireworks" that come along at times, what's most helpful is the simple focus of trusting in Jesus and loving the people in my life. And in prayer, what seems to put things in order is the focus on relating myself to God. When I start to get too involved in observing inner phenomena, this relational focus on God is lost and I think what is observed is little more than my own energies. I also don't make a distinction between self and "I," although there are certainly different kinds of experences of one's subjectivity.

I'm thinking any communications from God as Light or in some other form would probably be known as such if God wanted us to know its true Source. That might not be the case with angelic/demonic entities, as Stephen described, although I think that they, too, would communicate a sense of presence of some kind.

I'm not as interested in phenomena now as I was say, ten years ago. The relationship is everything. But I am interested in light because it seems to be our substance and, uncreated, the substance of our Maker.

"God is Light".

Even the word (written or sounded), a ray of sunlight, light from a bulb, a candle, a lamp, inspires me and moves something at my core - light inspiring light. It's the substance of our relationship with God, and, while seeing visions of light isn't so important anymore, walking in the Light is.

I'm not so confident in our ability to recognise divine Light or communication. Sure if God wanted us to know, we would know. But Paul had to ask, "Who are you, Lord?", on the road to Damascus, and Samuel didn't know who was calling him when he heard the Lord's voice. Our vision can be clouded and our ears stopped up. Many a religious movement (Islam, Mormonism) has started because the visionary failed to truly identify the light.

Where the barriers of individual consciousness break down, there seems to be light and, with the light, a heightened sense of human presence and a confusing, non linear sense of time, which makes me think our minds are composed of light in motion. When the presence is benign there is no sense of being forced upon, rather a gentle, pleasant stirring in the mind; when the presence is malign, the mind recognises anger, hatred, pride, attempted manipulation. But still on occasion, the presence of light. Precognition comes on light, light containing time inspiring light and awareness.

God is gentle but His power is overwhelming and His Light can be blinding. "Who are you, Lord?" "Where are you?"

"Well, I'm beginning to see the light!" - Lou Reed.

Hi Stephen,

I've been following this thread with some perplexity about, on one hand, the nature of the experience you are reflecting on, and on the other, the meaning of the language you use to describe it. For the most part, I felt fairly uninvolved, until today, in church, when we were reading the Nicene Creed:

...Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnated by the Holy Ghost...

As I read, I saw where the language of "uncreated light" comes from. Partly so, at least. And I felt definitely involved, concerned about the issues raised in this thread.

I came home, did a web search on "uncreated light," and found a discussion of it in the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Hesychasm (Greek hesychos, quiet)... "mysticism defended by the monks of Athos in the fourteenth century..."

Their controversial claim was that the "uncreated light" is an attribute of God, God's energy, and is a perceptible light. They conceded that God's essence is imperceptible, but distinguished that from God's perceptible energy in such encounters as the transfiguration of Jesus on Mt. Tabor (thus, "the light of Tabor" mentioned by Phil earlier).

Better minds than mine, as seen in the article, have discussed the nature and implications of such a claim. See,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07301a.htm

So now, before saying more, I�m curious about your response to what I have reported so far. Is the research I'm drawing on familiar to you?

Where the barriers of individual consciousness break down, there seems to be light and, with the light, a heightened sense of human presence and a confusing, non linear sense of time, which makes me think our minds are composed of light in motion. When the presence is benign there is no sense of being forced upon, rather a gentle, pleasant stirring in the mind; when the presence is malign, the mind recognises anger, hatred, pride, attempted manipulation. But still on occasion, the presence of light. Precognition comes on light, light containing time inspiring light and awareness.

I very much resonate with your sharing, here, Stephen. And, as Ryan has noted, there is an ancient tradition that speaks of God's "uncreated energies," which often manifest as inner light.

I think Paul is our model when it comes to engaging light whose origin we do not understand, and I have done this, at times, by posing a similar question with my thoughts. Amazingly, "I" am very much alive and aware during certain experiences of light, and so such inquiry comes easily. I've yet to get a response a clear as Paul's, however. Instead, it's usually the effects of such experiences that indicate something of their character -- fruits of the Spirit, or otherwise.

" . . . which makes me think our minds are composed of light in motion."


Stephen:

Just an aside, but what you've said helps me see how the internal dialogue is automated based-upon the continual infusion of the Creator's light, but stepped way down into much denser, or fallen/chaotic patterns of consciousness.

When in graced states of praise, gratitude or love, I can sense how this polarization of energy within the incessant internal dialogue, or within bodily passion, is actually meant for a more devotional awareness, or "I-Thou" relatedness. It feels as though those scattered refractions of light are drawn to a center where the polarizations collapse into this receptivity.

Stephen this is a most challenging topic that you have presented. Like some of the other posters I have pondered to find what it is that you are really trying to get at with your questions, which you made quite clear. I'll try to add a bit more to what has been said already.

Christ's Light lights to varying degrees all of humanity. There is no such thing as a different light for other religions or beliefs. It is all the Light of Christ.

Since we are the Holy Temple of God can He bring forth His Light from within us, the answer is yes. As we know more Light can be given to us through the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit, and the ones who have much light now by their selfish pursuits and sin nature can lose Light and be thrown into darkness having only obscured Light.

The Light of God can also be robbed from us by our involvement in sin nature, it can be exploited by evil in the veiling of illusions, etc. That is why we need the spirit of truth and discernment more than ever in these trying days to lead and guide us in all truths. The Anti-Christ will be veiled so greatly with Christ's Light, that he has robbed, that we must be awake at all times and test every spirit.

I had a glimmer of this Light once and with it, IN it, came an overwhelming sense of love. It only lasted a few seconds but the love I felt was so powerful, I don't know if I could have borne its full force in my current human condition. That's why God needs to work in us, to make us suitable vessels for this overwhelming power.

I think that Light and Love are interchangeable. One is contained within the other. God is Light/God is Love. His Light is Love and His Love is Light. We are made in His image, so we are reflections of His Light - light reflected.

Ryan:

I discovered hesychasm and the Jesus Prayer towards the end of last summer. I read "Way of a Pilgrim" and the Philokalia and immersed myself in Athonite spirituality. Still am. Hesychasm struck a chord with me at many different levels, not least of which was the idea of the vision of Light, something I've had a fascination with since I was a child and had a series of recurring dreams about light and a particular light figure whom I always imagined was the Holy Spirit, then began to think of as my preincarnate soul, and now don't really know who or what it was.

There was a time I confused Kundalini with the Shekinah Glory, but now see the latter as a manifestation of that Uncreated Light in Old Testament times. You may want to check out "On Faith" by St Symeon the New Theologian for a decription of an encounter with Uncreated Light. It's in Volume Four of the Philokalia.

w.c. :

Fragments of thought as shards of light falling away from, but also reaching out to the Source, perhaps. A two-way motion.

Freebird:

Your description brings into focus light as truth and holiness. Light has all these qualities - Love, Truth, Holiness. It's God's energy, but also His essence - He IS Light, He IS Love. And Jesus IS the light of the world.

The study of light in scripture is fascinating, particularly John in his gospel and first epistle.

Stephen, have you read Elder Joseph the Hesychast yet?

Stephen, have you read Elder Joseph the Hesychast yet?

Michael,

Funnily enough, he's actually the man of the moment. I'm reading through his letters and am waiting on a copy of his "Life."

What gets me about him and others, like St Silouan, is their simplicity. They were ordinary peasant folk with little or no formal education, yet they reached great spiritual heights. This in itself speaks volumes and flies in the face of the Hesychast controversy (see the article Ryan posted) which was mired in political and philosophical in fighting, most of which is above my head (especially the politics which really turns me off).