we learn from john of the cross:
sometimes the night of senses is active
sometimes the night of senses is passive
same with the night of the soul

in the same way:
sometimes we choose asceticism
sometimes asceticism chooses us

it is also true that:
sometimes we choose light
sometimes light chooses us

sometimes we choose darkness
sometimes darkness chooses us

in the case of light and darkness,
this is true literally and metaphorically

for instance:
we may seek shade and avoid the sun
or seek sun and avoid the shade

so we can recognize the efficacies of
light and dark, of suffering and of joy,
pedagogically and otherwise

even as we don't romanticize grief and pain in any way ...
still, sometimes they are unavoidable and
if the cup of suffering does not pass
(and I think we are called to ask for it to be taken away)
then we pray Thy will be done and then
what gets in our way is the way, transformatively, and

we can recognize the coincidence of opposites
as St. Bonaventure taught his Franciscans
and of the ideas of psychological balance and energy
in accordance with Jungian concepts and
we can live with life's mysteries and
tolerate life's paradoxes and ambiguities and
trust that we are being shaped and molded and formed
by a loving Father who would not give us a cross
without also giving us the strength to bear it and
who would not suffer us to die
without the promise of resurrection ...

similarly:
sometimes we choose silence
sometimes silence chooses us

like darkness and light and
the nights of senses and of soul
silence can come upon us passively or
not through our own choosing or

silence can come from
our own seeking
our own solitude
our exterior quieting
our answer to the call to prayer and

thus, sometimes we wander into the desert and
sometimes we go off into the wilderness and
sometimes the wilderness encroaches upon us but

assuredly, we need silence and
we need leisureliness and
we need retreat and

we need time in the liminal threshold,
in the crossing over between the apophatic and kataphatic,
such as in our prayer life, and also
in the interval between our going forth and returning,
such as in our apostolic endeavors and also
in the dwelling place between contemplation and action and,
even for the behaviorist,
in the moment between stimulus and response ...
for it is here that we will recognize our radical freedom or
experience our various enslavements

and it is our growth in freedom which gifts us with Love.

Silence is the intersection between our humanity and our divinity where the Life of God flows in and
the juncture between our being and Her Being, our doing and His doing.

Silence is, then, a sacrament, effecting precisely that which it brings to mind, which is no thing, which is G-D.

Buddhists are living sacraments of silence, reminding us that our best Christian metaphysics (which is REALLY good) is, nevertheless, "so much straw"!

Namaste all,
johnboy

Hi...
Still rambling on here. Your posts have given me much food for thought and I'm afraid I am still digesting.... of course that has never stopped me from "talking" so here goes....

Sometimes I feel as if each of us is a tiny picture of the world - a model perhaps from which we can learn about all of the others. Like all creation we are ever changing - evolving. Parts of us die and parts are reborn each day. We circle through periods of darkness and light and need both the sunshine of laughter and the rainfall of tears to grow and become. We start as a part and end as a part. What we forget is that we are never apart. We can never be separate. We cannot exist without the totality and the totality would not exist as it does without us.

To know thyself, I think means more than knowing if you like chocolate or what makes you angry or happy. To know ourselves, we also have to understand our place - our part of the whole. We have to be able to see ourselves as more than an individual but as a part as well. Until we understand ourselves as parts as well as wholes we cannot understand the role we are to play or the purpose of our existence. We simply spend our time bumping against each other as we rattle around in our confusion. When we see ourselves as parts and not wholes, we see that we have both little importance and yet great importance. If life were a symphony, we are but single notes.... the symphony can and does go on without us but each of us, each note imparts its own beauty to the totality, thus the symphony would not be quite the same without it.

"Sometimes we choose silence
And sometimes silence chooses us."

This I find to be especially true for me. Being INFP - too much interaction leaves me totally exhausted physically, mentally and spiritually. I need silence and solitude.... times to simply retreat from the world and touch ground so to speak. Sometimes I recognize this need and take the time but if things are really hectic, I tend to put this off with the result that things get worse not better. Taking a few minutes for silence gives me the strength and all of that to "carry on".

Other times though even when nothing particular is happening I find myself drawn into silence. It is as if an old friend has stopped by to visit and I simply want to stop what I am doing to spend time with him. Pull up a chair, grab a cuppa coffee or tea or a glass of wine and simply spend time together. These times are the best! While I would so like to simply stay there, I am always pulled back into the fray one way or another but I think that too is as it should be. Perhaps this could be a part of the tension between faith alone and works alone... neither is enough in itself. We need both. As much as we are drawn to one way or another, we must have both to be complete.

Wanda

Wanda wrote: "Sometimes I feel as if each of us is a tiny picture of the world - a model perhaps from which we can learn about all of the others"
+++

we learn from john of the cross:
sometimes the night of senses is active
sometimes the night of senses is passive
same with the night of the soul
in the same way:
sometimes we choose asceticism
sometimes asceticism chooses us

it is also true that:
sometimes we choose light
sometimes light chooses us

sometimes we choose darkness
sometimes darkness chooses us

in the case of light and darkness,
this is true literally and metaphorically

for instance:
we may seek shade and avoid the sun
or seek sun and avoid the shade

so we can recognize the efficacies of
light and dark, of suffering and of joy,
pedagogically and otherwise

even as we don't romanticize grief and pain in any way ...
still, sometimes they are unavoidable and
if the cup of suffering does not pass
(and I think we are called to ask for it to be taken away)
then we pray Thy will be done and then
what gets in our way is the way, transformatively, and

we can recognize the coincidence of opposites
as St. Bonaventure taught his Franciscans
and of the ideas of psychological balance and energy
in accordance with Jungian concepts and
we can live with life's mysteries and
tolerate life's paradoxes and ambiguities and
trust that we are being shaped and molded and formed
by a loving Father who would not give us a cross
without also giving us the strength to bear it and
who would not suffer us to die
without the promise of resurrection ...

similarly:
sometimes we choose silence
sometimes silence chooses us

like darkness and light and
the nights of senses and of soul
silence can come upon us passively or
not through our own choosing or

silence can come from
our own seeking
our own solitude
our exterior quieting
our answer to the call to prayer and

thus, sometimes we wander into the desert and
sometimes we go off into the wilderness and
sometimes the wilderness encroaches upon us but

assuredly, we need silence and
we need leisureliness and
we need retreat and

we need time in the liminal threshold,
in the crossing over between the apophatic and kataphatic,
such as in our prayer life, and also
in the interval between our going forth and returning,
such as in our apostolic endeavors and also
in the dwelling place between contemplation and action and,
even for the behaviorist,
in the moment between stimulus and response ...
for it is here that we will recognize our radical freedom or
experience our various enslavements

and it is our growth in freedom which gifts us with Love.

Silence is the intersection between our humanity and our divinity where the Life of God flows in and
the juncture between our being and Her Being, our doing and His doing.

Silence is, then, a sacrament, effecting precisely that which it brings to mind, which is no thing, which is G-D.

Buddhists are living sacraments of silence, reminding us that our best Christian metaphysics (which is REALLY good) is, nevertheless, "so much straw"!

Let me try this again

Wanda wrote: "Sometimes I feel as if each of us is a tiny picture of the world - a model perhaps from which we can learn about all of the others"
+++
Francis called all creatures, no matter how small, by the name of brother and sister, because he knew they had the same source as himself.
- Saint Bonaventure

Wanda, you may enjoy this link http://www.cacradicalgrace.org...ain%20of%20being.htm for what you have described very much reminds me of the concept of a holon. Richard Rohr uses this to expand on teachings of Aquinas and Bonaventure and Ken Wilber.

What I had previously intended to come back and do was to annotate my last posting, just because I marveled at how many different influences came into my mind when writing it. It illustrates how we are so interdependent.

sometimes we choose asceticism
sometimes asceticism chooses us
juan de la cruz -ish

sometimes we choose darkness
sometimes darkness chooses us
even as we don't romanticize grief and pain
Joyce Rupp

what gets in our way is the way
a spiritual director of a spiritual director friend of shalomplace

we can recognize the coincidence of opposites
St. Bonaventure

the ideas of psychological balance and energy
Carl Jung

we can live with life's mysteries and
tolerate life's paradoxes and ambiguities
Scott Peck and many others

we need leisureliness
Brother David Steindl-Rast

we need time in the liminal threshold
Richard Rohr

in the crossing over between the apophatic and kataphatic, such as in our prayer life
Father Thomas Keating

between contemplation and action
Rohr

even for the behaviorist,
in the moment between stimulus and response ...
Stephen Covey (on Watson and Skinner)

sacrament, effecting precisely that which it brings to mind
so old I don't know where I first heard it

"so much straw"!
St. Thomas Aquinas

Great Chain of Being By Richard Rohr, OFM

I don't know if I've had any original thoughts!

peace,
johnboy

When we see ourselves as parts and not wholes, we see that we have both little importance and yet great importance.

Yes, Wanda, quite perplexing. One looks at the size of the universe and it's easy to feel less significant than a grain of sand on a grain of sand. At the same time one might look at another human being - or even a flower - and marvel at something so unique that you have the feeling that the most important thing in the universe is right before you.

Johnboy....
Love your quotes and am adding them to my collection. I save these things that touch me and then once in awhile bring them out and ponder and even sometimes write on them.

"What gets in our way is the way"

Just what I needed to hear today! Thank you!

Brad... it is perplexing how something so insignificant can be so important. Two things come to mind when reading your reply...
First what is more beautiful than the face of your love or your child.
Second.. it is often the little things we do that make a difference... the big are more spectacular but it is often the little things that are most special.

Peace,
Wanda

From Solitude to Solidarity
Suffering to Solace
Silence to Shalom
Sovereignity to Stewardship
Simplified to Sanctified

staying with this poem
not fully developed
but as a prayer litany or a Disneyesque storyboard

Solitude leads to
exterior quieting which leads to
interior quieting which leads to
Silence which leads to a radical intuition of being which leads to a
Natural Mysticism which, like Suffering, can bring an awareness of our utter no-thing-ness which leads to
Humility which is the recognition of our profound giftedness in every moment of existence which puts us in touch with our
Innate Poverty which helps us to recognize the innate poverty of all others as well thus enhancing our awareness of our
Solidarity from which will naturally ensue
Compassion which responds in
Service which has as its fruit
Love which gifts us with an otherworldy solace, a heavenly peace, which is
Shalom

and along this journey, once aware of our utter nothingness, we are confronted with a choice, because in our profound giftedness is rooted a radical freedom and it is from this freedom that we respond in true

Humility which, if authentic, will have, as an intrinsic element, an attitude of
Gratitude ... but early on our journey, once threatened by suffering or by another confrontation with our nothingness

we often respond, not with the litany of Dayenu: You gave me existence and that would have been enough, but then you gave me my people and that would have been enough, but then you gave us our health and that would have been enough, but then you gave us our food and that would have been enough, but then you gave us our clothing and that would have been enough, but then you gave us our shelters and homes and that would have been enough, but then you gave us our education and jobs and that would have been enough, but then you gave us your Incarnation and its Saving Mysteries and that would have been enough, but then you gave us your Church and its ministries and that would have been enough, but then you promised us justification and triumph over sin and death and that would have been enough, but then you promised us sanctification and made us holier and holier and that would have been enough, but then you promised us glorification and beatific vision and that would have been enough for, what no eye has seen nor ear heard nor has even entered into our hearts, such are the things You have prepared for those for whom existence itself ... would have been enough ... but with a litany of

You gave me existence but I want more and you gave me my people but I want more and you gave us health but I want more and you gave us food but I want more and you gave us clothing but I want more and you gave us homes but I want more and you gave us an education and jobs but I want more and you gave us your Son and the promise of transformation and eternal life but I'll only truly be okay when ______________________________________________ and then that desire is satisfied and we say you gave us ______________________________ but I'll really truly be okay ___________________________________ and what is this but the very opposite of gratitide and humility but rather, in essence, is the practice of pride, anger, greed, envy, sloth, gluttony and lust. Rather than praying Dayenu, it is saying: I'll only praise You if ... ... and rather than leading to service, it is saying: I will not serve ... and so, we are called, in our radical freedom to recognize our sovereignity and to say with Him:

This is MY body, for truly you are gifted with your body and its posture of gratitude or ingratitude, of humility or pride, of service or greed, of sovereignity or stewardship, and if of a steward aware of his/her giftedness, that will be followed by WHICH IS GIVEN UP FOR YOU. The movement of gratitude either takes us through our apostolic commitment to the Cross, not one of our choosing for it is a by-product of our love not the goal, or it is frustrated by our grasping, clutching and clingin to our sovereignity in the seven, truly deadly sins. It is a movement from willfulness to willingness.

Humility and Gratitude, if not frustrated by our pride, anger and greed but augmented by Dayenu carry us on our way to Solidarity, Service and Shalom.

This is why so much of our work in formative spirituality involves reclaiming our freedom from addiction, idolatry and every other form of enslavement which leaves us in the perennially frustrating loop of: "I'll be okay when ___________" and only then leads us to authentic spiritual growth.

It is a movement from Solitude to Solidarity, from Suffering to Solace, from Silence to Shalom, from Sovereignity to Stewardship, from the Simplified to the Sanctified.

just some reflections - any thoughts(like riches to honor to pride or the three degrees of humility by Ignatius?)

Sylvest to St. Romain
johnboy

QuiEst -

Wow! I am still digesting and pondering and all of that. It is more than beautiful.... Thanks for sharing.

"Solitude leads to
exterior quieting which leads to
interior quieting which leads to
Silence which leads to a radical intuition of being which leads to a
Natural Mysticism which, like Suffering, can bring an awareness of our utter no-thing-ness which leads to
Humility which is the recognition of our profound giftedness in every moment of existence which puts us in touch with our
Innate Poverty which helps us to recognize the innate poverty of all others as well thus enhancing our awareness of our
Solidarity from which will naturally ensue
Compassion which responds in
Service which has as its fruit
Love which gifts us with an otherworldy solace, a heavenly peace, which is
Shalom"

The only part you left out are the tears - "From the silence of the first spark and the first drop of the abyss, from the primordial silence of creation; from hearts hushed in the dark flame of the tears of God who is Silence comes the possibility we seek, and without which we shall die.
And the vision of reality that emerges from this silence bring us to laughter: blessed laughter that reveals, laughter that heals; laughter that appreciates; laughter that rejoices in barriers broken; laughter that adores; laughter with tears that leaves us willingly helpless to do aught but be drawn into the abyss of God's joy." Maggie Ross - The Fountain and the Furnace

Shalom,
Wanda

and what is this but the very opposite of gratitide and humility but rather, in essence, is the practice of pride, anger, greed, envy, sloth, gluttony and lust. Rather than praying Dayenu, it is saying: I'll only praise You if ... ... and rather than leading to service, it is saying: I will not serve ... and so, we are called, in our radical freedom to recognize our sovereignity and to say with Him:

Well, there's the rub all right, and what a big one it is!

But how freeing, in many ways, to recognize this.

And you point out so well how anything good that happens usually begins in solitude and silence. Makes me glad I work at a retreat center!

Phil

Wanda wrote: "The only part you left out are the tears - "From the silence of the first spark and the first drop of the abyss, from the primordial silence of creation; from hearts hushed in the dark flame of the tears of God who is Silence comes the possibility we seek, and without which we shall die. And the vision of reality that emerges from this silence bring us to laughter: blessed laughter that reveals, laughter that heals; laughter that appreciates; laughter that rejoices in barriers broken; laughter that adores; laughter with tears that leaves us willingly helpless to do aught but be drawn into the abyss of God's joy." Maggie Ross - The Fountain and the Furnace"
+++ +++ +++ +++ +++

How very insightful and perceptive for you to have looked for the tears, Wanda! I wrote an e-mail this morning to a good friend and closed with: "My journey has been incredibly painful and enormously joyful and I wouldn't trade it for the world." What a powerful affirmation by the Spirit through your giftedness.

Yes, that's why I did mention the awareness that can come through suffering. This is something I'd like to further explore. I was musing, even as I wrote the "poem", that if you don't take the route to transformation through silence (and who among us does, initially?) then you will assuredly be gifted with transformation through the route of suffering.

I'm not saying we all aren't so "gifted" but, what I am trying to tease out in the manner of a nuance is that, we can sure ameliorate both the amount we suffer and the manner in which we experience inescapable suffering by tending to the silence, to prayer, to G-D.

Like St. Francis, if we wed Lady Poverty ... to imitate Christ on the Cross becomes Perfect Joy. Like Ignatius and his three degrees of humility, we seek not only not to offend God venially or grievously but desire to prefer His will in everything and to imitate Him in every Way.

I had written: "rather than leading to service, it is saying: I will not serve ... and so, we are called, in our radical freedom to recognize our sovereignity and to say with Him: [This is MY body]

and Phil responded: "Well, there's the rub all right, and what a big one it is! But how freeing, in many ways, to recognize this."
+++ ++++++ +++

Well, one thing I had in mind is how we must accept responsibility for our freedom and it is a powerful affirmation of our ability (response-ability/responsibilty) to choose an attitude of gratitude and stewardship by freely surrendering our sovereignity (like Mary's fiat) and saying: "I give it up for you" ---

Those who cling so fervently to "This is MY body" (I won't mince words) in proclaiming abortion rights, for instance, feel very strongly about same because they are, indeed, in touch with a very important truth and are affirming what God proclaims about our freedom. It is one thing to be in touch with an ontological fact, however, and quite another to discern an ethical imperative in the formation of an upright and mature conscience, a moral obligation to nurture, sustain, affirm, protect and defend innocent human life. I believe that our imitation of Christ would have us invoke the rest of the words of the consecration, too.

jboy

Jboy -
Your words have hit home in so many ways...... and address many of the thing I am struggling with as well. Anyhow, here are some preliminary thoughts.... not so well expressed perhaps because they are not completely formed yet. But I will throw them out anyhow and invite any and all comments - Thank you for beginning this thread. It really is a good one - for me anyhow.

Yes, that's why I did mention the awareness that can come through suffering. This is something I'd like to further explore. I was musing, even as I wrote the "poem", that if you don't take the route to transformation through silence (and who among us does, initially?) then you will assuredly be gifted with transformation through the route of suffering.

I'm not saying we all aren't so "gifted" but, what I am trying to tease out in the manner of a nuance is that, we can sure ameliorate both the amount we suffer and the manner in which we experience inescapable suffering by tending to the silence, to prayer, to G-D.

I'm not so sure the two aren't the same path. Silence often leads to suffering and suffering to silence. How badly we as a society hate silence. We even need music in elevators. We are very much afraid to be alone with ourselves... to know ourselves. One thing Maggies brings out in her book is that we spend a lot of our time and energy re-creating ourselves and each other. Rather than celebrate who we each are, we try to remake each other into who we think we/they should be. We start as children/with our children and in the smallest things. A big boy doesn't cry, a girl doesn't do this. There are behaviors we must encourage and others we must discourage but so much of this has nothing to do with behavior per se. We have all seen the parent who almost forces their child to play a certain sport - not because the child wants to but because the parent wants to and then gets a bit upset when the child doesn't excell.. so to please the parent the child tries a bit harder but inside ...
Before long, we have re-created ourselves out of existence almost. That wonderful child full of joy and hope and love and possibilities is buried so deep within the expectations of others and sometimes even of ourselves that we can only vaguely remember him/her. Silence strips away all of these coverings - and we stand naked before God. But, until we do this we are unable to see the wonderful creature we were created to be and we realize that we already were created. We do not have to change ourselves but simply to be ourselves. We were created by Love to be creatures of love for love.

I had written: "rather than leading to service, it is saying: I will not serve ... and so, we are called, in our radical freedom to recognize our sovereignity and to say with Him: [This is MY body] and Phil responded: "Well, there's the rub all right, and what a big one it is! But how freeing, in many ways, to recognize this."

The rub is to be ourselves is not all that easy. The world does not go away. This is My body and it is good. I am me and I am good. You are you and you are good.

Well, one thing I had in mind is how we must accept responsibility for our freedom and it is a powerful affirmation of our ability (response-ability/responsibilty) to choose an attitude of gratitude and stewardship by freely surrendering our sovereignity (like Mary's fiat) and saying: "I give it up for you" --- Well, one thing I had in mind is how we must accept responsibility for our freedom and it is a powerful affirmation of our ability (response-ability/responsibilty) to choose an attitude of gratitude and stewardship by freely surrendering our sovereignity (like Mary's fiat) and saying: "I give it up for you" ---

This goes back to the concept of ownership. We tend to think we own what we create.... our homes, our writings, our families, our work.... all of it. The thing is if you really get down to it we really create little. My words come from the words of others.... and from reflections on the people and things around me... if those things were not there how could I reflect and if I could not reflect on them how could I write about them... We created nothing and so how can we claim ownership. We did not create ourselves so how can we own ourselves? We belong to the creator. We live within the freedom he has given us and within the world he has created for us - not as owners but as caretakers. It is living within this freedom and responsibility that we become co-creators but we create not according to our vision but according to His. Sometimes I think in spite of ourselves.

Like St. Francis, if we wed Lady Poverty ... to imitate Christ on the Cross becomes Perfect Joy. Like Ignatius and his three degrees of humility, we seek not only not to offend God venially or grievously but desire to prefer His will in everything and to imitate Him in every Way.

Those who cling so fervently to "This is MY body" (I won't mince words) in proclaiming abortion rights, for instance, feel very strongly about same because they are, indeed, in touch with a very important truth and are affirming what God proclaims about our freedom. It is one thing to be in touch with an ontological fact, however, and quite another to discern an ethical imperative in the formation of an upright and mature conscience, a moral obligation to nurture, sustain, affirm, protect and defend innocent human life. I believe that our imitation of Christ would have us invoke the rest of the words of the consecration, too.

Choice - we all have a choice - that's the thing we have to remember. God will not choose for us, although I firmly believe he could if he wanted. How can we choose for others? Given this freedom of choice do we have the right to take that away from others? In the end, we each will be held accountable for our own choices - we will stand alone naked before our creator.

Will it matter as much what we did or didn't do - or will we be judged more on why we did it - on how well we loved.
Lol,
Wanda

Wanda, what a depthful reflection, however "preliminary" you may have described them.

You wrote, re: silence & suffering: "I'm not so sure the two aren't the same path. Silence often leads to suffering and suffering to silence."

Excellent. I think John of the Cross and others, who have more fully elaborated the purgative, illuminative and unitive ways, would heartily affirm this.
+++ +++ +++ +++

You continued: "How badly we as a society hate silence. We even need music in elevators. We are very much afraid to be alone with ourselves... to know ourselves. One thing Maggies brings out in her book is that we spend a lot of our time and energy re-creating ourselves and each other."

Powerful! Jim Dolan said Tony deMello's teachings could be summed up in three lines (WHOA!)<grin>---
1) Leave other people alone; 2) Be compassionate; and 3) Bend the rules. Of course, this "leaving other people alone" concept is highly nuanced for parenting, administering folks in the workplace, military and police activity, the civil and criminal justice system, and so forth! But your parenting points were WELL made and captured those nuances.

You wrote, too, Wanda: There are behaviors we must encourage and others we must discourage but so much of this has nothing to do with behavior per se."

Again, excellent point. I told my brother-in-law, just 2 days ago, that so much of parenting seems to involve discerning how much and which types of pain to rescue one's child from or not. Also, so much parenting can have so little to do with behavioral reinforcement, positive or negative, and so much to do with curbing or correcting a child's behavior in order to make the parent comfortable (in so many different ways). Formation is not about making a parent's life easier; it's about partnering with the Creator in the ongoing birthing process of a soul. Otherwise, parenting can be quite exploitative (as you gave fine examples of).

Wanda continued: "This goes back to the concept of ownership. We tend to think we own what we create.... our homes, our writings, our families, our work.... all of it."

AMEN! Our very existence is radically contingent so HOW can we truly OWN anything --other than to the extent that perhaps God "shrunk" when our wills were implanted? (My variation on a Jewish ontological theme).

Wanda wrote: "Choice - we all have a choice - that's the thing we have to remember. God will not choose for us, although I firmly believe he could if he wanted."

Reminds me of the lyrics to a song I first heard yesterday (don't do radio much - I heard it through the speakers at Wendy's - maybe it isn't new): "I can't believe in me for you."

Wanda concluded: "How can we choose for others? Given this freedom of choice do we have the right to take that away from others? In the end, we each will be held accountable for our own choices - we will stand alone naked before our creator."

Truly, it is impossible. If God doesn't do it then we can not possibly do it. More heavily nuancing, at the same time, as in teachings on Divine Providence, we can look at human actions as having two components: one is the physical action and the other is the moral action. Providence "uses" our physical actions in transformative ways, even those which appear objectively evil, but God does NOT participate in the moral choosing itself, for we are clearly on our own.

Analogously, we may provide formative influences for others' consciences but we will never be able to make those choices for them. This is separate from the physical activity which we may not only have the right but, indeed, the responsibility to interfere with! So, yes, sometimes, we have the right to take away others' freedom insofar as we are talking about "physical activities". That's what Just War theory is about and our criminal justice system.

It takes much communal discernment (a redundancy?) and a deeply rooted spirituality to make our "best calls" regarding when we interfere with another's sovereignity, however. The stakes have to be pretty high and the situation has to be pretty unambiguous. I think my Church denomination has failed, in the past, quite frankly, by contributing to ambiguity in moral matters. For instance, by placing missing mass, masturbation and eating meat on Fridays in the same moral equivalency category as murder ... any wonder so many struggle with abortion issues, for instance? When do we invade another country? or another's body? I understand why people of large intelligence and profound goodwill struggle and I don't judge them under the circumstances.
+++ +++

Re: Will it matter as much what we did or didn't do - or will we be judged more on why we did it - on how well we loved.

There are MORE reasons for exculpability than most of us have ever been taught!

Shalom,
jboy

maybe i've taken the thread astray a tad?

RE: The stakes have to be pretty high and the situation has to be pretty unambiguous.
+++ +++ +++

I want to add that, for me, when the stakes are very high but the moral determination is riddled with ambiguity, my default position is to err on whatever side, or in whatever direction, would tend to preserve whatever value it is that is at risk.

There is a term for this type of approach that is used in metaethics and/or moral theology but I forget what it is presently

Shalom,
jboy

Footnote: In moral theology, to take the safer course when there is a moral question = tutior pars (not to be confused with probabilsm or probabiliorism per se but would come up within those contexts).

Will it matter as much what we did or didn't do - or will we be judged more on why we did it - on how well we loved.

There are MORE reasons for exculpability than most of us have ever been taught!


All very good reflection, and I was struck by the statements above. Certainly, there is too much scrupulosity in this world about such matters . . . and too much neglect as well. As usual, it comes down to the middle way.

"Love, and do what you please." St. Augustine.

"Don't do nuttin' wrong an' you'll be awright, yeah, cher!" Etienne Boudreaux.

Hi ya'll.....
This place has been really quiet lately... Must be everyone has retreated into silence.

I'm going off to the desert - literally to visit my daughter for a few days. She lives in the Mohave in CA. Ironically enough I have chosen a book entitled The Desert - an Anthology for Lent for my lenten meditation this year.

I would like to share a quote from it with you....

"The way you must go is the
way you already know.

He has set it in your heart.
The solitude will speak to you." Derek Webster

I was recently told that the greatest part of discernment - of any type is listening. So often we speak around things and unless one really listens - with the heart as well as the mind, we never truly hear what is being said. I think that so much of the anger and pain in this world can be traced back to our inability to listen to each other or even to ourselves. We may hear the words but we don't hear the why behind the words.

Could be the why is more important than the words themselves....
Thoughts?

Wanda, I've been sick with the flu for the past few days and have not been able to do much on the computer.

It's always been kind of slow-paced out here--I kind of like it that way. The quality of the material shared is superb, however.

I like the emphasis on listening. Yes. But to do so requires an inner silence and receptivity that is truly rare. We do what we can do, however.

Back to bed, now.

Phil

Phil.... feel better.

An old home rememdy that my father swore by - although I really do not recommend (tastes horrid!) is to take 1/3 cup of lemon juice, 1/3 cup of hot tea and a shot or two of whiskey... mix well, drink it right down and go directly to bed.

Tried it once though and it worked!

Catch up with all when I return.
Peace,
Wanda

Hi friends of silence,
It has taken me a while to read and ponder all those posts. There are so many points that one can spend a whole day with. But, of course, it would need to be a quiet day.
Jb, your poetic reflections are wonderful! "from solitude to silence". Exterior silence is so helpful and some days I just crave it. But given the circumstances of my life, I've found that spiritual silence is not the absence of noise, it is the absence of attention to that noise. Holding onto this idea has given me the interor silence I need when I can discipline myself to 'go into my secret room' even though the noise of my life does not let up.
I, too, often wondered why the Church put so many things in the same moral categories that didn't actually seem to fit. Jesus railed against hypocrisy, legalism, unkindness and lack of faith. He was compassionate and forgiving for the failings of our weak human natures. He did not seem to see, in those failings, a complete turning away from the Way.

Ana,

Thank you for reminding me that we can have silence and solitude in the midst of all the chaos that often characterizes our lives. I have been so busy this last week with things that needed attending to and have been feeling very sorry for myself that I haven't had time for silent retreat. I am afraid I am not very good at finding it in the midst though.

"Jesus railed against hypocrisy, legalism, unkindness and lack of faith. He was compassionate and forgiving for the failings of our weak
human natures. He did not seem to see, in those failings, a complete turning away from the Way."

I think he was able to find compassion and forgiveness for our failings because he was able to accept our humanity in a way we often are not. We want to be more - to be better than we are. He accepts us as we are. He did not give us a massive legal code to live by but two simple rules - love God and love each other. We seem to be the ones who need the legalities; but then maybe these rules are necessity to help us define what it means to love.

Anyhow, thank you for reminding me that I do not have to be alone to be alone.

Peace,
Wanda