quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:
To me, mystical experiences seem too varied to be able to be neatly catalogued.

Hi Sasha,

Thanks for sharing in some detail your experiences "out of body," as you recall them.

I do have a bit of a cataloging mind, it seems. And I have made an effort to think about my experience as it relates to history of Christian mysticism.

In that context, I notice that your experiences appear to engage the faculty of imagination as with a dream, or a lucid dream or an out of body experience or an astral projection when one can look back and see your body. All of this involves a sense of outward seeing or hearing, an apparent outward objectivity. In the book of Revelation and in Ezekial's vision, there is a lot of that sort of seeing that involves apparent outward observation in an alternate reality.

By contrast, in my experience, I did not perceive with my imagination. It was all inward, not outward perception. It was all direct sensation of my body in various phases of bodily being in partly and out partly and not knowing objectively -- That God only knows. I know what I felt and saw directly, changing internal body/mind sensations and alternations of inner light and dark.

Does that distinction make sense and seem accurate?

Ryan,

I think I see what you mean. I think for me there was, on second thought, a kind of "layering" of experiences. In the deepest part, there was a kind of being so fully in God's Presence that there is no intellect functioning, and then "coming down" to the layer of objective observation. Both things seemed to be going on. Though I never felt myself in the body at all like you did, and I don't know what you mean about "changing internal body/mind sensations and alternations of inner light and dark."

Christian mysticism is very interesting, but God is maybe doing a new thing in addition to the "same old"?

peace to you, Ryan!
Shasha

Ryan --

"By "rapture" I'm talking about the sort of experience Teresa of Avila had: a sudden, forced, ascent of the soul out of the realm of the senses, up to a mystical union of love beyond intellectual understanding and, in my case, beyond any conscious awareness whatsoever."




Ryan.

Thank you for sharing your thoughtful reflections of your experiences. I hesitated to respond
as the only term I know to express some of what you write is non-duality. I can relate
to what you are expressing yet it is always possible that it is not the same thing. I live in a small
community where I have found no resources on this issue. Perhaps I will have deeper clarity from this discussion also, thank you


The rapture that you speak of is what i know as being in the Mind of God. I have no conscious awareness. To me it is as if the ego is transcended. It is not OOB. When this occurs there is change after this. Some part of my ego dies/is transformed into a more loving/compassionate person.


++++++++ Ryan
"The third layer is not in time or space and there is no direct memory of it except as a gap. Before the gap, "I" was intellect ascending, after the gap, "I" was reunited -- body, mind, and soul in luminous, almost weightless, peace. There was no sensation of the process of descent. The gap, is known then, by its marvelous effect. That gap is my "third heaven." "Paradise," fits more as a word for the reunion of body, mind and soul in a glorified manner, completely free of ordinary bodily desire. In my paradise I knew I was "in the body" in that I was breathing and I could have moved if I had wonted to; however, my body was not like I had ever known it before and I did not know if I would ever have that sense of paradise again after the experience faded, as I knew it would."

+++++ Ajoy
A beautiful reflection of the returning to awareness. The gap, which i have referred to as losing time
as it is beyond intellectual experience. Yes, when a sense of I returned there was a beauty
that words fail. No memory of any descent. The wholeness, yes. What you write in the above and below paragraphs, I have placed the word non-duality. Don't know if it is the appropriate word to use but non the less it is the expression i have.


+++++++
"Ryan

Part of it is actually resting in that sense of paradise. Trusting, surrendering, forgiving, mercifully morphing into it. All the time knowing, that "this world" with all the war and injustice and hatred is still going on, and that I am in it. Yet, being "in" that zone of paradise, I am not "of" this world.
In may ways I remain powerless. I personally am in solitude a lot. And yet, I am capable of compassion and neighborly love as the occasion for it arises. And of course, I still have my own fleshy tendencies, my thorn in the flesh, that keeps me aware, that even in my person, this is not yet paradise, and I am also "of" the world "
(.........)

Then comes the gap, which is a whole other order..


+++
Yes
+++

"This "gap," it seems to raise the question in article three of Aquinas's discussion of rapture whether Paul, in rapture "saw the essence of God." That is the mystical center that is seen by going blind, touched by becoming spirit, known by unknowing -- nobody can see the face of God and lives. And yet it is by dying that we are born to eternal life."

++++++++++
I am going to see if my local library can get a copy of the book that Phil has mentioned.

Ajoy

Ryan, I've had so many *varied* supernatural and mystical experiences in my body. To clarify, the supernatural seem to fit in one broad category and the mystical are clearly under the Power of God through Christ. I would say the out-of-body, astral, blue pearl, bliss body, kundalini stuff as well as the state of unity consciousness is all supernatural, part of the realm of our spiritual, yet fallen nature.

Since coming to Christ, I've experienced various divine encounters, including being lifted up into a heavenly realm. These mystical encounters seem to be simultaneously transforming as well as 'happening to' a new body in Christ.

So, to clarify my previous answer to your question, that is the first distinction that fits my experiences.

Now, your description about "changing internal body/mind sensations..."is leading me to wonder if there is an early form of the *resurrected* body which we experience during a rapture?

As has been said, "no*body* can see the face of God and lives." No, it's no ordinary BODY that can see the face of God. Maybe we need a prototype of our resurrected body in order to be raptured up...maybe it's only in this new body that we experience such an intimacy with God. Do the early Saints talk about this?

Something similar to this occurs, I think, when one is "slain in the Spirit."

One literally loses all voluntary ability to remain standing and even remain fully conscious momentarily, a kind of death of the ordinary body. Some people are slain for hours. The Power of God is so strong that one literally collapses under His influence. It's hard to believe unless you experience this directly. In these cases, the ordinary *body* cannot withstand the power of His Spirit upon His touch.

Just wondering out loud...

quote:

Originally posted by Ajoy:
The rapture that you speak of is what i know as being in the Mind of God. I have no conscious awareness. To me it is as if the ego is transcended. It is not OOB. When this occurs there is change after this. Some part of my ego dies/is transformed into a more loving/compassionate person.

Hi Ajoy,

When does this nonduality usually happen? During meditation? Do you remember your last experience before going in, and your first experience coming out of nonduality? Can you go into it at will?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shasha:
...mystical encounters seem to be simultaneously transforming as well as 'happening to' a new body in Christ. [QUOTE]

That experience of a new body "in Christ" is central to my sense of rapture. Alan Segal (Paul the Convert) argues that when in 2 Cor. 12 Paul talks about a man caught up into Paradise, the experience of the "spiritual body" or resurrection body is what he had in mind. He did not know Jesus in the flesh. But he knew the transformative power of being "in Christ." Most believers trust that it is so by hearing testimony of scripture, and press on with their disciplines in hope. But for the man "in Christ," caught up into paradise, the experience is direct.


[QUOTE]Now, your description about "changing internal body/mind sensations..."is leading me to wonder if there is an early form of the *resurrected* body which we experience during a rapture?[QUOTE]

Yes, exactly.

[QUOTE]As has been said, "no*body* can see the face of God and lives." No, it's no ordinary BODY that can see the face of God. Maybe we need a prototype of our resurrected body in order to be raptured up...maybe it's only in this new body that we experience such an intimacy with God. Do the early Saints talk about this?[QUOTE]

I read somewhere in Paul's writings where he talks about seeing God by not seeing. The mystical descriptions are paradoxical. God the Father cannot be seen directly. John of the cross talks about the importance of "touch" in the process of transformation. This touch, fits for me as a description of how the divine name is most deeply encountered, how the word becomes flesh in our bodies.

As you wrote, "...the ordinary *body* cannot withstand the power of His Spirit upon His touch."

A few responses to this excellent discussion.


The general consensus of spiritual writers in the Christian tradition about ecstatic experiences is that they indicate what they called an "overflow of the senses," meaning that spiritual life "overflowed" from the spiritual soul into the "lower souls" (analogous to Hinduism's multiple bodies), overwhelming them for a period of time. Something of a fuse burns out, I guess we could say, to protect the brain, or maybe the "sleep switch" gets tripped. There's no judgment about whether this is good or bad, a sign of holiness, etc., and I'd say the same about being "slain in the Spirit." What makes all the difference is how one lives after these experiences. Sometimes they signal a deeper surrender or contemplative union; other times, there seems to be little spiritual significance -- sort of just an overwhelming blast of energy.

In general, the Holy Spirit is most respecting of the delicate balance of human systems and energies, never moving faster or communicating more grace than we can integrate. It's my own opinion, here, but I'd say 99% of what's called slaying in the Spirit has more to do with kundalini-type dynamics than the Holy Spirit. There's no precedent for slaying in the New Testament or history of Christian spirituality. I've been in prayer meetings where this happened and went up the line to be prayed over. Everyone around me was falling, but I just felt a strong stirring of K and calmly walked away. I've also prayed with people at charismatic meetings and they were slain in the Spirit; this only happened at meeting where slayings were somewhat expected. At other meetings, nothing of the sort happened. I'm not saying the Holy Spirit isn't involved, only that's not usually how the Spirit works.

- - -

Non-dual experiences of God have been described in the Christian tradition from very early on, especially with regard to Theoria, the mystical contemplation of God. In the highest stages of contemplation, there is an experiential (not ontological) breakdown between subject and object, as though one perceives and knows with God's own knowing (a taste of the Beatific Vision; Paul's "Knowing as we are known, in 1 Cor. 13). This doesn't last long, but it is profoundly transformative. There are other types of mystical contemplation which maintain various levels of duality, but the union of Love is also present in these.

Re. the resurrection body; the ancients considered mystical contemplation an early taste of heaven and noted that the bodies of many mystics were incorrupted after death. This was understood to be the fruit of that "overflow of the senses" mentioned above; spiritual life transforming even the body. Incorruptibles were considered a reminder of the truth of the resurrection.

- --

Personally, I've not experienced the kinds of raptures some of you are describing, but I know several people who have. One man is certain that he was drawn up to a throne room in heaven and had a meeting with Christ, who was a being of dazzling light. Christ confronted him about a few sinful areas of his life, then blessed him and sent him back to ordinary consciousness, whereafter he became a minister.

My own experience is more along the lines of apophatic contemplation: quiet resting, sometimes with inner light, very few thoughts which just come and go, and a sense of being "in-God" and "of-God." I've had glimpses of non-duality, but nothing very deep.

Phil-- thanks for your reflections.

About rapture, you write:

"One man is certain that he was drawn up to a throne room in heaven and had a meeting with Christ, who was a being of dazzling light."

This is similar to the experience of Mahesh Chavda who was taken up for 5 hours or so at age 16. He was reading a Bible at his desk, all new to him as he was from a devout Hindu family, and was knocked out and whooshed upward. He saw a being of dazzling light and out of it emerged Jesus. John Paul Jackson told an audience that he was taken up to the "throne room" of God and was so awestruck with holy terror at God's Power that it took him a full two years before he told God he was willing to be taken up again.
---------------------------------

I would like to start a new thread on what it means to be slain in the Spirit. What you are saying about it being kundalini driven is news to me. It doesn't at all fit with my experiences in the ashram where kundalini ascension is the explicit goal of hundreds of people all receiving kundalini energy over and over again, but I would like to learn more about the subject.
-------------------------------------------------

Ryan,

you wrote: The mystical descriptions are paradoxical. God the Father cannot be seen directly.

I agree. I think all the experiences I've had are still God's GIFTS to me, not directly HIM.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan:
Hi Ajoy,

When does this nonduality usually happen? During meditation? Do you remember your last experience before going in, and your first experience coming out of nonduality? Can you go into it at will? [/QB]

Hi Ryan:
I have called these experiences grace, usually followed by a time of change.
There are for me times when there is an inner knowing that YHWH is drawing me nearer. There is never a knowing when. I enter into prayer/mediation ASAP.

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking in the other part of your post. Possibly
this will address it.

It is like a type of layering as has been brought up. I am at a loss with the technicality of the definitions of terms. There is a union of love that draws me which I remember, then being in Mind of God (where there is no remembering , and when I have awareness return it is like being in the Heart of YHWH. And to me there is such a beauty & love beyond everyday
experience. This lasts for as long as YHWH will's it.

Recently there was an experience of surrendering to death in this union of love.
And a breathe of fire was blown on my chest. From this I have come to understand
unloving ways about myself and change is occurring.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb]

Non-dual experiences of God have been described in the Christian tradition from very early on, especially with regard to Theoria, the mystical contemplation of God. [/qb]

Phil,

Thank you so much for all of the information in your last post on this thread. I just looked up the term Theoria and this has been the kind
of information I've been looking for for years.

The article I saw expressed this from the Eastern
Orthodox understanding. 2 thumbs up. It didn't
really get into Roman Catholic understanding with
much depth. Just wondering if there is much difference in understanding between the 2 belief
systems.

Thanks again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoria

I forgot this in my last post. I'm going to do
some research on this.

Ajoy, Theoria is pretty much what later came to be called infused contemplation. Maybe you're more familiar with that term.

Something akin to the non-dual experiences described in the far East is that deepening of contemplation called the Prayer of Union. See http://www.catholic-church.org...g/9grades/grade7.htm for more info. No doubt, there are other good links as well. Note the depth of absorption, where both mind and will are captivated by God's presence, with no sense of self and, hence, subject-object relations. This is structurally similar in some ways to Eastern non-dual experiences, except that in the latter duality collapes into pure subjectivity, where the deep Self and its connection with the cosmos is realized (cosmic consciousness).

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
...This is structurally similar in some ways to Eastern non-dual experiences, except that in the latter duality collapes into pure subjectivity, where the deep Self and its connection with the cosmos is realized (cosmic consciousness).

Phil, I am not sure it is really appropriate to refer to this as pure subjectivity. (my emphasis) Yes, it is experienced -- but that does not make it subjective. Perhaps we could even stretch things and say it is "a subjectively experienced objectivity".

However, in my experience even this misses the mark, since I would venture that the Self in this state experiences objectively. Being...

HP, this is indeed a difficult experience to comprehend. Shasha has described it somewhere else on this forum. Here's a reference to it from a yogic web site:

quote:

The higher self includes the immediate vicinity of objectivity which usually the individual self regards as external to it; and every stage of rise to the higher degree of self is also a rise to a greater inclusiveness of objectivity in subjectivity, so that in every higher stage the subject becomes larger in its comprehension, and the objectivity gets lessened. The more we rise higher, the less is the objectivity involved in awareness, and the greater is the subjectivity.

In the final consummation, which is the goal of life, there is only subject, and no object. All the objects are drawn into the subject, in the largest comprehensiveness of the subject. That Supreme Subjectivity, which is All-Comprehensiveness, in which every object is subsumed, is Ishvara or God.

- http://www.swami-krishnananda....tanjali/raja_19.html

Most likely, what is happening is that the aspect of mind which makes subject/object distinctions is inactive, or caught up in the act of awareness itself. Hence, one experiences reality from the level of the ground of one's being, and senses all things arising from deeper Being. This is obviously different from the kind of comtemplation referred to as the prayer of union (link above), where one becomes so immersed in God as to forget oneself completely. And, at any rate, I don't think the yogic experience indicates the ontological nature of reality.

quote:

Originally posted by Ajoy:
I am at a loss with the technicality of the definitions of terms. There is a union of love that draws me which I remember, then being in Mind of God (where there is no remembering , and when I have awareness return it is like being in the Heart of YHWH. And to me there is such a beauty & love beyond everyday
experience. This lasts for as long as YHWH will's it.

Ajoy,

The thought that comes to mind is, "I don't know what you are talking about." But let me try to understand. You say there is a state "where there is no remembering." You don't remember it. Is that right?

But you do remember the before and the after.

Before: sense of presence "draws" you into prayer.
In-between: an unremembered gap
After: beauty and love beyond everyday experience.

Is that what you are saying?

So here is my question: If you cannot remember the middle part, how do you know there is one? How do you know that you aren't "drawn" directly into the experience of "beauty beyond the ordinary" with no in-between phase? How do you know there was something in-between that you cannot remember?

Is there an obvious discontinuity? Like watching a movie where it skips from one scene to another completely different?

Is it like a gradual (or is it sudden) being drawn into nothing --this "nothing" lasts only God knows how long, maybe no "time" at all, or do you have some objective measure, a clock perhaps? -- and then a sudden (or is it a gradual) awareness of coming out into extraordinary beauty?

Phil,
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes this is what
I have been looking for. I have found more information also.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:

Something akin to the non-dual experiences described in the far East is that deepening of contemplation called the Prayer of Union. See http://www.catholic-church.org...g/9grades/grade7.htm . [/QB]

Glad to hear that, Ajoy.

Ryan asks some good questions, above. Maybe you could respond when you have time.

Thanks. Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
I hope you have a good spiritual director to help provide support and ongoing discernment.

Phil,

I've been thinking more about your "spiritual director" comment. As mentioned, there is the nun I carpool with monthly. In addition, there is my daily discipline of two twenty minute sits of centering prayer. Those sits are spiritual direction.

Another "spiritual director" is Henri Nouwen who is, of course, dead, and who never met me, except for one time he saw me in a crowd. There was a line of people ready to ask questions. He took about ten questions. I was up next and he cut off the questions then. So he saw me there, but did not take my question. Not directly anyway. That was back in '82.

Anyway, in the dream-vision that triggered my apophatic rapture, I saw a book, and in the book, it was written, "Journey of Angels," forthcoming, by Henri Nouwen. It never occurred to me to take it literally that Nouwen might write such a book until I learned the following.

According to his journal, in September, that year, Nouwen started writing a daybook of wisdom and faith. To write it, he bought a blank book with an Angel on the cover, and when he wrote he would sit down and asked, "Do you have a thought for your Angel?" On September 23, 95, he wrote, "Today I surprised myself with seven thoughts. I hope my Angels like them."

He crossed out that last sentence, so it didn't get published in "Sabbatical Journey: The Journal of his Final Year." That was the beginning of the crossing out of Angel talk. When the daybook came out, and he told the story of its origins, he says the blank book had a "work of art" on the cover (no mention of an Angel.) He says, "I sat down each morning, whether I had any ideas or not, and waited until my pen started to move and pull words out of my mind and heart." No mention of having a though for his Angel.

In addition to Sabbatical Journey, his other books to appear next had journey in the titles -- "The Inner Voice of Love: A Journey Through Anguish to Freedom; and his daybook, Bread for the Journey.

Since I know the secret of the Angel references crossed out, I feel justified in thinking of that daybook as, "(Bread for) the Journey of Angels."

In addition to my carpooling nun friend, and twice daily sits, that daybook has also become my spiritual director of sorts. As a daybook, it addresses the basic problem of daily living out of that one apocalyptic moment of rapture. As time goes on and I reread the book, I seem clearly that his thoughts truly are relevant to my journey -- both the one time rapture, a kind of journey of Angels, and my daily walk, another kind.

Ryan, I understand what you're saying about how certain writers and even one's spiritual practice help one to come to a sense of direction about God's leading. It sounds like your relationship with the nun is also a spiritual friendship. I wouldn't say any of that is the same as spiritual direction, however. See http://shalomplace.com/direction for more info on what I had in mind. The process dates back to the time of desert fathers and mothers in the 3rd C.

A thread like this where there's sharing and feedback does constitute a kind of peer or group spiritual direction, I believe, though in a very informal manner.

>>The thought that comes to mind is, "I don't know what you are talking about."

Sorry Ryan, sounds like we're not talking about the same thing. I know you started this thread
to understand more clearly what you had experienced.


>>Before: sense of presence "draws" you into prayer.
>>In-between: an unremembered gap
>>After: beauty and love beyond everyday experience.

>>Is that what you are saying?


I felt drawn into prayer by YHWH. There was no awareness of surroundings at that point that I recall. Much was occurring then within, which I wish to remain private.
Yes, I do believe there was a period of no memory.
And then a return where there was awareness internally and to my surroundings with very deep love & beauty.

>>So here is my question: If you cannot remember the middle part, how do you know there is one? How do >>you know that you aren't "drawn" directly into the experience of "beauty beyond the ordinary" with no in->>between phase? How do you know there was something in-between that you cannot remember?

>>Is there an obvious discontinuity? Like watching a movie where it skips from one scene to another completely >>different?

>>Is it like a gradual (or is it sudden) being drawn into nothing --this "nothing" lasts only God knows how long, >>maybe no "time" at all, or do you have some objective measure, a clock perhaps? -- and then a sudden (or is it >>a gradual) awareness of coming out into extraordinary beauty?

These are very good questions. This was not something that I was drawn to really remember at the time. So I
can only answer part of it. I remember seeing the time on a clock when I became aware of my
surroundings again. And there was a knowing that 20 mins had past . It was longer than 20 mins. since I entered prayer. So it would seem that there was a knowing when
I entered this phase of prayer and when I came out of it. But I can't express how I knew fully.

I would not say that I was drawn into nothingness, only that I have no memory. This is not OOB. There was no sense of disconnection or abruptness. Not much else I can express about it.

I look briefly in an article about stages of prayer and wonder if this period of not remembering could be called self forgetfulness.
I don't know.

If not then it is always possible that my NA heritage is expressing itself also. I have experienced an interweving of the Christian and Native American before.

Ajoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi
There is a Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

I went back over some of this thread and certain
expressions had a deep impact. I posted below.


The definition of Nirvikalpa samadhi
seems to me a different type of definition of Enlightenment than Buddhism.

In this nirvikalpa samadhi the body appears dead but isn't. Could be translated into one can not see the face of YHWH and live. And yet it is by dying that we are born to eternal life.


The body is said to be transformed. One lives in the world but is not of this world.
I see no reference to one believing themselves to be G*d but that their awareness
stays in connection with the Divine.


"In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, all attachment to the material world and all karma is dissolved. All awareness is withdrawn step by step from the physical, astral and causal bodies until self-realization or oneness with the soul is achieved. During this process, breathing ceases and the heart stops beating. Aware and fully conscious oneness with soul is then achieved in a most loving way, and all cells of the physical body are flooded with the Ocean of Divine Love and Divine Bliss for any period of duration�hours, days, weeks, until the individual shifts his awareness from the soul back to the physical body. Being fully functional in this world, his awareness stays in connection with the Divine. But some "strange" conditions accompany this state�better health (the body is sustained by Divine Grace), better feelings (even for other people who may contact the body which the enlightened soul has reidentified with) and various miraculous happenings may occur in connection with the Enlightened one."







+++++++Ryan & Shasha++++++
nobody can see the face of God and lives. And yet it is by dying that we
are born to eternal life.++++++
beyond any conscious awareness whatsoever.
++
The third layer is not in time or space and there is no direct memory of
it except as a gap.


++++++
I read somewhere in Paul's writings where he talks about seeing God by
not seeing. The mystical descriptions are paradoxical. God the Father
cannot be seen directly. John of the cross talks about the importance of
"touch" in the process of transformation. This touch, fits for me as a
description of how the divine name is most deeply encountered, how the
word becomes flesh in our bodies.

As you wrote, "...the ordinary *body* cannot withstand the power of His
Spirit upon His touch."

++++++++++++++
[QUOTE]As has been said, "no*body* can see the face of God and lives."
No, it's no ordinary BODY that can see the face of God. Maybe we need a
prototype of our resurrected body in order to be raptured up...maybe it's
only in this new body that we experience such an intimacy with God. Do
the early Saints talk about this?[QUOTE

Hi Ajoy, Sasha, Phil, and HeartPrayer,

Thanks for your responses. I've been pondering the experience of rapture vis a vi similar experiences touched on in our conversation thus far. In terms of comparison and contrast, I see five experiences for consideration: kataphatic rapture, out of body experience, "self-forgetfulness" in deep meditation, being slain in the spirit, and nirvikalpa samadhi.

I had thought of all these comparable experiences before this conversation, but this conversation has taken me further. Here are some musing of the moment.

Kataphatic rapture is when a person is taken forcibly out of body and "sees" outward visions and perhaps hears voices. By contrast, I experienced what I would call an apophatic rapture: I saw nothing and heard nothing "outside" my own rapidly morphing body. Nevertheless, there is a similarity in the feeling of going out of ordinary consciousness and into a heavenly realm of feeling.

Out of body experience: It can happen in lucid dreaming and "astral travel." And it often involves looking back and "seeing" ones physical body. There are lots of accounts of such, for example, here:
http://www.oberf.org/sobe_stories.htm
In my experience, I did not look back and "see" my body, and I could not have done so. I had no ability to "see" anything objectively. I was in a state of "not knowing" with respect to my body. did feel like I was "out of body" but since there was no body perceptible, it remained somewhat of an open question in the perceptual frame of the experience. Like OBE's brought on my near death physical trauma, I did have a sense that I was dying, but unlike such experiences, when I returned I was in fact physically well.

"Self-forgetfulness" in deep meditation. I have had some experience of my meditation seeming shorter than usual, perhaps due to not remembering or being deeply absorbed. The effect is something like sleep, which is another way to make time fly. That differs from the "gap" in my memory of rapture in several respects. In rapture, the last moment of consciousness before entering the gap and the first conscious moment upon exiting the gap are sharply defined, analogous to a scene shift in a movie where one second you are seeing from one perspective, the next from a different point of view. Regardless, the memory or imprint of rapture has had an impact on my meditation practice ever since. In a sense, I see it as my divine lesson in deep meditation. Instead of going "up" I go "in." Instead of ascending, I'm centering. The layers of body/soul are somewhat similar either direction.

Being slain in the spirit. The word "slain" is striking here. Taken literally, it means to be killed. It evokes association with sacrificial tradition: animal sacrifice, the near-sacrifice of Isaac, the crucifixion of Jesus, and of course, vicarious participation in the death of Jesus in baptism. The label "slain" is somewhat of an overstatement because, I have not heard of anyone "slain in the spirit" who reported feeling/thinking they had died. Perhaps there are such reports, but I have not heard them. By contrast, in the rapture I experienced, the "slain" term does fit the feeling: it made me think I was really dying. I did not know I had not died until I was back "in the body."

nirvikalpa samadhi: "all attachment to the material world and all karma is dissolved. All awareness is withdrawn step by step from the physical, astral and causal bodies until self-realization or oneness with the soul is achieved. During this process, breathing ceases and the heart stops beating. " Actually, the description fits amazingly well. Maybe that is why I've been drawn to eastern yoga tradition as a way of learning from the experience. There is the description of layering of body sensations. The detachment. I don't know whether my heart stopped, but it could have during the depth of it, and I was deeply aware of my heart perceptibly pausing at the onset. And I was unable to breathe. Having the experience passively can make you think you are enlightened when you aren't, I'm told. The path to enlightenment is learning to live in that divine connection constantly and go into meditative depths at will. I have a ways to go in that regard.

I welcome your further musings on this topic so close to my heart. Thanks again for your caring interest.

Right, Ryan: all kinds of mystical experiences, and it's not always easy to find them validated in one's tradition.

I tried to account for some of the variation in my book, God, Self and Ego: An exercise in discernment, which might also be subtitled "Who's who" in the variety of mystical experiences. I think the type most foreign to the West is what I called Self-God experiences during which time the ordinary Ego self seemed nowhere to be found. Maybe that's what's going on in Nirvikalpa Samadhi? I wonder.

It sounds like you've got a good perspective on all this. Thanks for your generous sharing on a complicated topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
I think the type most foreign to the West is what I called Self-God experiences during which time the ordinary Ego self seemed nowhere to be found. Maybe that's what's going on in Nirvikalpa Samadhi? I wonder.

Interesting question, Phil.

There are two phases of nirvikalpa samadi. The first has to do with something like rapture and the body is as-if-dead. The second, which springs out of the first sequentially, is ordinary life lived in an extraordinary way. The language I particularly connect with is in the rapturous phase one: "All awareness is withdrawn step by step from the physical, astral and causal bodies until self-realization or oneness with the soul is achieved." I can say from my experience that even while "I" was going through the step by step loss first of outer body, then of soul, there was still an "I" in the ordinary sense until there was a complete gap and with it of course, no "I".

As for the second phase of nirvikalpa samadi, I don't connect so clearly with that language. But my guess is, that is where you were connecting when you wrote: "ordinary Ego self seemed nowhere to be found." As for my experience, I think I've pretty much always had an ordinary "I" while I've been conscious. I don't recall ever wondering, "Where did my ordinary ego, my 'I' go?" or otherwise being aware of its absence.

There has however been a shift in the body image that "I" identify myself with. I think I often tended to identify with my visible body and all the passions and emotional ups and downs that go with being embodied ordinarily. Gradually, my identification is more with my "soul" which is not prone to emotional ups and downs, but is instead, always happy to be alive. And perhaps even moreso, "I" am my intellectual faculty which is in itself, non-anxious and curious.

Also the image of God that I worship has changed. The father who is known by unknowing and without images has become my center of worship. ("The God of the gap" the pajorative cliche has taken on a new and rather postive meaning for me.) And in that centering there is a communion that shifts more toward union.

I am touched by your interpretation of "I" in relation to "am". Thank you for that.

Back when this thread was active, I found a web page that records accounts of "out of body" experiences of various kinds. I submitted my experience story, and today they published it on their web collection. You can see it and over a thousand others more or less like it here:

http://www.oberf.org/gregory_hm_obe.htm

PS. I used my first name, gregory.