I'd like to hear what you think about Wilber's idea that meditation can disable us to be in touch with our feelings. He's expressed this only recently, e.g.in his book Integral Spirituality. He says that if we practice detachment, for instance, whenever we feel anger we observe it as an object, distance ourselves from it ("anger arises in my mind, I'm not my anger"), this practice can lead to deepening dissociation from our emotions, strenghten repression and projection, make us more enlightened but less in touch with our emotions.
My friend who is a therapist, wonders if meditation can be potentially harmful in the sense that some people can cut off from their feelings doing that.
I think it's an interesting question. Do you have any thoughts, experiences about that?

quote:

. . . endless digression of witnessing. . .

Yes, I think the kind of dissociating often taught in New Age/Eastern circles (I am not by body, my anger, etc.) can be damaging. I've never seen the point of this, anyway. I mean, does anyone out there think they ARE their anger? In relation to the other discussion we're having on reflecting and non-reflecting consciousness, it seems an attempt to awaken one to the non-reflecting aspect, only that's impossible to do if one is simultaneously closing oneself off to one's experiences. Non-reflecting consciousness observes and experiences without judgment, evaluation, etc., but to deny it even of its experiential awareness by insisting that it only observe without experiencing seems an abusive practice.

I can sort of understand what Ken Wilbur is saying: it seems that the false self will manufacture "peace" or clearmindedness, or whatever it senses is needed to make me acceptable, and the end result will make me more dissociated from the reality of who I am and what I feel. But, with the intention of wanting to know reality, by a form of emptiness or mindfulness meditation, meditation can help heal dissociation.Anyway, that's what Martha Stout in her book on dissociation called The Myth of Sanity, says. She doesn't mention Focussing (I don't think), but she does write about hypnosis.Although I never suffered memory loss as her clients do in the book, I know about divided consciousness, especially as a child, when the reality of me so completely did not measure up to what was expected of me by parents and grandparents, and the only way to soothe myself was just to invent another "perfect" me. I haven't done this in years, not in the way I used to, and I think that is an act of grace. The desire to be someone else was so strong that it took grace to make me want reality,"loving what is", truth, much more than any contrived reality.I think that wanting to know God as God is, following that longing, is an excellent way to heal dissociation.Sorry this is so longwinded!

Sorry, I missed your post, Phil, before I wrote.It is important to me to observe without reflection,when I do contemplative prayer, because I have such an urge to make over what I observe into something more spiritual, or happy,or meaningful ... centering prayer is rather liberating as all I have to do is return ever so gently to the Holy Face, or the sacred word,or space, or whatever it is that returns me to being with God in silence.But, I don't shut down what I experience...I just let it be what it is,no analysis, no inner dialogue.

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
I'd like to hear what you think about Wilber's idea that meditation can disable us to be in touch with our feelings.

I think "meditation" encompasses too broad a range of practices for us to be able to draw any conclusions. We have to zoom in on a particular form of meditation.

Here is a section of Satipatthana Sutta Discourses by S. N. Goenka and Patrick Given-Wilson:

http://books.google.ca/books?i...20sensations&f=false

Goenka has dozens of meditation centers around the world. Here he is talking about observing sensations.

He does say that "the observation must be made without any separation of observer and observed" (p. 52).

However, he is also teaching people to think of their feelings as only physical sensations.

While it's true that physical sensations accompany feelings, it's not true that a feeling is only a physical sensation. A feeling is also something felt on an emotional level ("feeling your feelings"), and feelings tend to produce thoughts, which in turn produce more feelings. There may also be an awareness of the nature of what you're feeling ("I'm angry about . . . ").

By telling people to stop these natural processes from happening, he is effectively training them to shut down certain pathways in the psyche.

The one thing that seems unequivocally good is getting to know yourself at a deeper level.

So, for example, if the person who made this statement:

quote:

I don’t need to go to AA because I’ve found Vipassana meditation makes me feel better.

would practice a form of meditation that caused them to become aware of what was driving their rationalization, then I'd say that form of meditation was a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek:
The one thing that seems unequivocally good is getting to know yourself at a deeper level.

So, for example, if the person who made this statement:

quote:

I don’t need to go to AA because I’ve found Vipassana meditation makes me feel better.

would practice a form of meditation that caused them to become aware of what was driving their rationalization, then I'd say that form of meditation was a good thing.

You make a good point. It's that whole fruit tree metaphor. We can just end all of our discussions with the fruit tree, never fails to settle us down.

Thank you, Shasha, for clearing up terminology. I used dissociation/association in the NLP sense - to disconnect or connect with an experience. But, as you point out, dissociation is an early and destructive defense mechanism which is not likely to be caused by meditation.

I wonder what you'd call in psychoanalytic terms a meditator's exaggerated distance from his/her emotions and feelings. Perhaps, some sort of isolation or intellectualization.

Hey Mt.,

I guess it would have been more reasonable to get your definition of the terms you're using rather than providing you with those from psychiatry, as though they're somehow better...Sorry about that.

Yes, isolation of affect or intellectualization are certainly associated with a characterological tendency to avoid/deny threatening emotions (or any emotions in some cases).

DSM definitions:

isolation of affect - dealing with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by the separation of ideas from the feelings originally associated with them. The individual loses touch with the feelings associated with a given idea while remaining aware of the cognitive elements of it (e.g., descriptive details.)

intellectualization - dealing with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by the excessive use of abstract thinking or the making of generalizations to control or minimize disturbing feelings.

These two often go together and can be on a wide spectrum. People who are prone to these aren't naturally aware of what they're doing. It usually takes others close to them complaining about lack of emotional reciprocity for them to realize this is how they relate.

More healthy is suppression, a conscious deliberate avoidance of emotion. (People often say "repression" when they mean suppression.)

Suppression is more healthy because you are first acknowleding emotion and then using conscious control. "I just won't think about that right now."

Mt, it seems you have a healthy curiosity and gaining understanding of the potential misuse of witnessing in your meditation/ prayer life. Keep us informed of what you learn, if you like.

I have DID and it started probably around the toddler years from different types of abuse. I agree with Phil that the (I am not my body) is not a great idea esp. for someone like me, because I am already dealing with trying to recover all parts of myself in a compassionate attitude.

When feelings come up, I say - "What do you want me to know? or What are you trying to tell me?" I have the choice in what I want to do with them. Our feelings are a wonderful tool to point us to what we may need to work on further internally. I want to embrace all parts of my being for I feel they are a divine gift.

As far a meditation, I like calming peaceful ones that bring the body, mind, and spirit closer together to communicate and work in unison.

Also, in the East, they tend to not focus on any of the things that come up in meditation. I find the visions & words to be very informative. I just let them go by, but I try to make note of the ones I want to learn more about an area that may need my attention or just tell me what is going on in regard to becoming whole.

HealingWater, there are some older threads here on something called "Focusing" that you might find interesting. It sounds like Focusing might expand upon the good direction you're already taking.

Thank you. I will look it up here.