Holy Cow, Jeff! You aren't off the mark whatsoever. Rather, you have summarized, in your own way, what many of us have been saying or trying to say, and expanded the discussion a tad. This is a thread that deserves to live on a while longer and I think you have reinvigorated it. If it doesn't continue on, it is only because the very few of us who actually post here have exhausted our resourcefulness perhaps or are otherwise time-constrained (as others have indeed pointed out). Whatever the case, this substantive addition is a gift of Grace.

w.c. , if you are reading this, your developmental perspective would nicely complement our discussions, especially from a formative spirituality angle.

pax tibi, gracias
jb

What first occured to me when reading your posts is how important it is that we be able to connect communally with each other with respect to the longing for transformation that is inherent in passion. Jeff described this some in his posts. Questor, to have a minister who respects that raw edge is fortunate for any congregation, and probably rare.

I also started wondering about the mythological realm, not in the reductionistic sense of demythologizing religion, but to what extent the church can accomodate the human unconscious as it is engaged through the power of the sacraments.

I spent about 10 years as a seeker among Buddhists and Hindus, drawn there mainly by what I felt at the time was a lack of support/vision in the Christian Church for the darker aspects of pscyhological experience/healing. I wasn't consciously thinking that rituals per se would be that important, but only the people and what it was like to be in their company. And while there was plenty of good things to be said of this period in my life, there was a sense of "home" missing in these cultural contexts, even when mostly westernized.

What kept me coming back again and again to the Christian Church was the Eucharist. My first remembered mystical awareness was at 4yrs of age while at a Eucharist. But that's not surprising, since 4yr olds., being so prone to the state of wonder, would easily grok the sacramental presence without having to understand a bit of theology (something I think is sadly misunderstood in much of the church's curriculum for children). I used to think that experience was simply due to this openness of childhood and my habituation in the church. Now I can see how the Eucharist is a rare and essential example of the mythological world embodied in our culture. My subconscious probably wouldn't resonate with anything else that didn't carry forward its hidden, personal and transpersonal meaning.

For those of you that can tolerate Joseph Campbell, he's descriptions are good and rich, although I think he really did miss the boat when it comes to the personal nature of the Divine Reality. Perhaps he was fairly established in the nondual sense of things, but I have the feeling he kind of had a bone to pick with the church. Anyway, that much is another thread . . .

What I'm suggesting is that to understand the interpersonal and transpersonal nature of passion, we must have some basis for forming relationships with each other that reflect and contain its power, and for most westerners, like it or not, that is the church's sacramental space. It's in our blood and collective unconscious. Where else can we find it so easily?

Unfortunately, there is still much fear in allowing that space to resonate with the personal and collective unconscious. This fear is present in any case with all humans. But to be instinctively drawn to the church for deeper reasons than we can realize, only to find it psychologically crippled is quite a challenge. The personal unconscious brings us awareness of all the distortions in passion that are seeking greater, more cohesive connection, and the collective unconscious connects us with life beyond the church, with an experiential sense of the deeper anthropology articulated by the RC church. Yet the church still lacks enough psychological bridges to build community around those insights.

For the most part, Christianity shys away from/mistrusts the intuitive/instinctive sensing we see in children. This natural openness to God's immanent presence is perhaps interpreted as a threat to theology, but I sense it is mainly a fear of the personal unconscious, where we are afraid of facing its contents, and appeal to church life to do our thinking for us, rather than face the terrible mystery of the Cross that keeps us facing our own death, both the ultimate passion and the source of sacrament.

Now, as Questor mentions, we can learn to channel that passion for life in and through our corporate worship, and corporate worship can be a community expression that fosters and gives shape to our personal joy in experiencing God�s presence through all the passion of life (i.e. like the Psalms!).

YES!! This morning as I was on the road, I was thinking about this thread and some things Questor had said about passion in worship and passion in family and the Psalms came to mind. I was thinking of how King David has always been, to me, an inspiration because OF his passion. Oh my...that passion was like a river that flowed from him into everything he did. His battles, his family, his life..his intense yearning for God. (His passion, of course, not always resulting in the upright thing to do, but yet still clinging to God) It also occurred to me how, in the OT, the belief in God and worship of Him was like a legacy passed down through the family.

Yesterday I happened to be reading of when King David died and passing his kingdom down to Solomon and some of his words to Solomon struck me. I realized that nowadays we don't seem to have that real understanding of instilling spirituality into our families. I see such a deep conviction in the Patriarchs of not only expecting, but also a sense of certainty that their spiritual life was the key to the entire rest of their everyday lives.


I'm wondering if this is something that has dampened the passionate spirituality in the present day. Have we become too nonchalant about instilling our faith into our children? Have we neglected to build our families around our faith? Or have we built our faith around our families?

Good posts on here! Thanks everyone .

God bless,
Terri

We will be able to reflect on multiple layers of meaning in these recent posts. Thanks, all.

For me, a consideration of the word passion always conjures up many feelings, concepts, images ... from spousal mysticism to conjugal spirituality to concupiscence to limerance and infatuation to rage and anger ...

But, for me, it never fails to also bring to mind our central mysteries of the faith and Jesus' Passion, both in the larger sense of how He lived but especially in the more narrow and classical sense of the Paschal event (though separating "Christ Has Died, Christ Is Risen" from other aspects of His Hidden Life and Public Ministries seems really impossible, insofar as the events historically, and made Present in the Now, are so intertwined, even with our eschatological vision of Christ Will Come Again).

Getting down to earth and more directly to my point, I recall a time when, as a very young man, I was meditating on the Passion in a manner that, unbeknownst to me at the time, was akin to Ignatian imaginative meditation. The intuition I received (and I understand it may have been more projection than real, though maybe not) was that Jesus' Agony in the Garden was not so much due to fear of His upcoming suffering from scourging, ridicule and crucifixion but was moreso due to His full realization that His immense love for humanity was unrequited .

At the time, I was still very much in touch with the depth of my emotional pain that had been associated with my own youthful infatuations gone awry and unrequited (I know that's difficult to comprehend for some of you, that is to ask -- what could those girls have been thinking - eat your hearts out now). My reasoning reflection then was that if i could hurt that badly and suffer that greatly from rejection in a love relationship , notwithstanding how imperfectly I loved, then how could Jesus possibly undergo the amount of pain and suffering that would be experienced from His Perfect Love being rejected by every human being then and through the ages? It seemed to me, then, that One could sweat blood under such agony. It still seems that way. It seems He would have eventually died from grief, there in the Garden, had they not taken Him away and put Him out of His misery.

I have had other meditations on the Passion over the years, but none quite like that first time. One I have shared before: The Passion of Jesus & Mary & Joseph And of John the Baptist & Elizabeth .

Still, we don't lose sight of how suffering and joyful mysteries are strangely but surely intertwined. So they were for Jesus and so they are for us. I have always imagined that, even at the Wedding Feast in Cana and other social events Jesus frequented, as much joy as He experienced, He was never out of touch with the immensity of human pain and the enormity of human suffering. Maybe that's me projecting but there's a sadness that always lingers below the surface even during my life's most joyful moments --- and it points me toward the Transcendent with hope for a glorious redemption from this rampant sin and culture of death, and from death itself, and from all Robbers of human joy. This radical poverty, where no moment is taken for granted and no life, either, helps one commune with that Father from Whom I have always received enough for one day, though there's nothing in my emotional barns or spiritual silos that will get me through tomorrow. But I wouldn't trade one day of passion-ately living with Our Father for ... what? I can't even think of anything. The hopes and fears of all the years, are met

in Thee,
jb

Wisdom has built her has...yes she has.

So much thought provoked by these last posts.

Mystery. That is the word I found myself drawn to again. Mystery. The unknown. We are definitely a product of the Enlightenment,for better and for the worse. Understanding the human limitations to reason have prompted me to respond to the idea of sacramentalism. One problem here is with the realization that the Protestant churches through out the baby with the bath water by refuting the Catholic version of the sacraments. Even though Baptists acknowledge a few sacraments, that is almost dead terminology for us. Yet at the same time, we posit the same mystery to sacraments in the message/sermon/whatever... the pastor is bringing the "the Word of God" to the church. Truly this is a holy time, one is which God can clearly speak to us. Yet like all mysteries, we can not simply accept it as a mystery, but seek to translate it into terms we can understand. Like the idea that if we can take it apart, examine all of its components, we can then understand an idea and put it back together. Genetics are one example of this.

We have to be rational, and then so does everything that comes into contact with us. Does anyone appreciate the irrational?

Passionate spirituality in the life of the family. Good post Terri, and thought provoking as well. I am afraid that what we do pass on to our families is tradition. Not in itself a bad thing to pass on, but if tradition is not translated, it loses some of its punch.

I might revise a little of my earlier definition to begin with God's activity and not our own. It is a constant struggle not to involved ourselves as the center of creation...

Therefore, passionate spirituality is:

God's desire to be in our presence in such a way as to invite our awareness of and corresponding desire for that presence.

(This is all similar to the idea:
We love, because God first loved us.)

As has been clearly stated, this presence invites individual and corporal transformation. As God's desire for us breaks into our thoughts, either consciously or unconsciously, this presence invites us to respond to God's grace. In our response, we can no longer be the same because we recognize that we have been touched by God's Divine favor. Grace is actualized in our awareness of God with us. And our passion is ignited in our response to this grace.

This is clearly a very circular argument, but one that is powerful because at the source remains God, as both subject and object.

The creative flourishes that continue to come forth in this thread have prompted me to return to my notes of yesteryear, which I share below.

Tony deMello spent his life teaching the importance of awareness versus analysis, of insight versus information, perhaps patterned after the founder of his order, St. Ignatius, who emphasized the need to "taste" the truth versus merely "knowing" the truth.

Oliver Sacks' book and movie, "Awakenings", describes how brain-damaged individuals can be roused out of stupor by music and art when nothing else can reach them.

From Amos Wilder: "Imagination is a necessary component of all profound knowing and celebration. It is at the level of imagination that any full engagement with life takes place."

From Morton Kelsey: "God knew that human beings learn more by story and music, by art, symbols, and images than by logical reasoning, theorems, and equations, so God's deepest revelations have always been expressed in images and stories."


pax,
jb

Oh my....there is sooooo much here in these posts. My spirit is overwhelmed! You all have no idea how much I was needing to read all these things...thank you, thank you.

My reasoning reflection then was that if i could hurt that badly and suffer that greatly from rejection in a love relationship , notwithstanding how imperfectly I loved, then how could Jesus possibly undergo the amount of pain and suffering that would be experienced from His Perfect Love being rejected by every human being then and through the ages?

JB, sometimes I feel like I'm reading my own words when I read the things you write..lol. You express so well the very things that have stirred me my entire life. Jesus' agony is something that is very much a part of my relationship with Him. I have to watch myself or I get a bit put out with folks who seem to toss Him around....you know what I mean? I can not imagine having to deal with the rejection He dealt with so much...but at the same time, I sense His joy in those of us who do love Him. I always call it being "in" love with Him because that's what it boils down to, I think.

Still, we don't lose sight of how suffering and joyful mysteries are strangely but surely intertwined. So they were for Jesus and so they are for us.

I so agree with that. In many ways, this is what the "journey" part of our spiritual walk is all about, in my opinion. Sometimes I feel like I wasted a lot of my Christian life because I didn't realize it sooner, but perhaps He's giving me a magnificent dose of it in these last 10 years to help me make up for lost time!

God's desire to be in our presence in such a way as to invite our awareness of and corresponding desire for that presence.

That is a beautiful way of putting it, Questor. Drawing us to Him as we yearn for Him to draw. How incredible is our God to be so concerned with us that He initiates and responds as we search so longingly for His presence in every aspect of every day.

Grace is actualized in our awareness of God with us. And our passion is ignited in our response to this grace.

Another great statement. The cord I see running through all these posts is that it is God and His doing and His desires which bring about this relationship we have with Him. Grace...will we ever understand how vast this is? I'm not sure, but I know for myself that I am awed over and over again to see His grace in action.

Tony deMello spent his life teaching the importance of awareness versus analysis, of insight versus information, perhaps patterned after the founder of his order, St. Ignatius, who emphasized the need to "taste" the truth versus merely "knowing" the truth.

One of my favorite verses:
Psa 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

How much do we miss when we don't "taste" Him? Hmmm I wonder if that is what is lacking in the passionate spirituality we've been discussing. Have we neglected to "taste" Him? Or rather have we neglected to express how we "taste" Him in our actions and conversations with other people?

The rest of those quotes, JB, are all wonderful. I have a friend who is a musician that is of the belief that we all have an "artist" in us, whether it be musician, writer, painter, encourager...whatever...and that the "artist" inside is who makes contact with God because the "artist" is the passionate one. She'd love these quotes .

Well...I think this is a pretty long post, but I wanted to write it down while I was still sitting here in the afterglow of all the thoughts and expressions I've read here.

God bless you,
Terri

I, too, have resonated so much with everyone's posts here, thus prompting me to want to establish how so very inter-validating our ideas are in so many different aspects. I am reading words and phrases and paragraphs that come from depthful encounters with the Risen One and, like the disciples on the road to Emmaus, my heart is burning within as we open one another to increased understanding of this great Love.

By the way, speaking of passion, I had self-chosen as an epitaph, years ago as a teen and my mind hasn't changed since: Luke 24:32

Let's consider two quotes from Kierkegaard as he discusses, in the first instance, any biblical encounter, and in the second, how a biblical scholar or anyone else might approach Scripture, if only they could:

quote:

"Such books are like mirrors. If a monkey looks in, no apostle looks out."

"They keep a list as Leporello did, but what they miss - yes, that is what it is all about; while Don Juan seduces and enjoys - Leporello notes down the time, the place, and the girl's descriptive details."

Verbum Domini,
Don Juanito

JB.........Thank you for unlocking the door and inviting us in. What edification I've received! Just as Jesus opened their eyes and hearts on the Emmaus Road, after dining with Him.....our hearts and eyes are being opened with this meal. May the burning within continue.

As the Holy Spirit testifies to my spirit, yes, we are indeed one family. He is not only THE Father...but OUR Father and His heart beats within us.

You've blessed my day with such expressive words.

I often search the web for Christian art. If you go here:
http://profiles.yahoo.com/jk1962
Click on "View my Briefcase" and choose "thumbnail" for the viewing, you'll see a small sampling of art that I've gleaned from websites. One of my favorites is entitled "Here O Lord". If you've a mind to, have a look. Oh...and there's pics of me and my granddaughter on there too. Um..not spiritual, but she is truly one of my greatest gifts from God .

Terri

Terri--we are both early risers this morning! (We're on our way out of town for a day trip).

Anyway, I went to your web site and saw your picture--very nice!

shanti

Maybe some might find tangents in this thread with the other thread we're trying to get going: Are Contemplation, Glossolalia and other prayer gifts for everyone ?

What aspects of our passionate spirituality are meant for all in a normative, prescriptive sort of way, are meant to be universally experienced? What comprise, rather, unique spiritualities ?

For starters, and for example, piety clearly takes on many forms of expression and no given form is prescribed. By contrast, for Catholics, participation in the Eucharist is clearly normative.

pax,
jb

Dear Nana and child, how beautiful! Thanks for inviting us in, too. My late Mother-in-law, Nana, nicknamed me "johnboy", a couple of decades ago. All Nanas hold a special place in my heart. May the love in your Nana-hood be multiplied a thousand times and last forever!

Love,
johnboy

Shanti, I find myself resonating with your thoughts. For me it is the issue of journeys. We often get so caught up in the destination that we miss out on the process to reach it.

I remember in undergrad having lots of religious questions as we studies church history and philosophy. Thoughts prompted questions which led to more questions. I remember meeting with one professor to discuss some of these questions and my frustration that sometimes the answers I received were insifficient. His response I still remember,

"Sometimes the questions we ask are of more value than the answers we receive."

(Bill Placher)

I also think about trips with our youth. Living where we do in Indiana, to attend any state function is at least a 3 hour drive. What we have come to discover is that our youth would rather have that three hour drive than host an event. They relish that time to be together. They share the excitement of the event and build their identity as a group in the process. By the time we arrive at the meeting (almost always late) our group has gelled into something else that is wonderful. Our frustration is that sometimes these meetings are diappointing. For a while we were ready to discontinue these trips, until we relived the value of the trip, if not the conference itself.

To look only at the end result is to become a bit too much like Machiavelli, and for me at least, the ends do not justify the means.

By the way all, mixed results to the message from Sunday. I pushed spirituality here pretty far, but backed off a little in the sermon. I was ready to say that worship did not depend on where our pulpit was (or was not) or whether the drums were stage center or off to the right side...and settled for the reminder that worship starts and ends with God's Presence, and any attempt to move ourselves into either role was dangerous.
From Jonah, we saw how God pursued Jonah with such zest and were reminded that this pursuit continues (we even talked about God's ultimate move- of sending Christ) us today, and maybe all we need to do to "find God" is stop running around so much, and allow God to find us.

Two very sweet people stopped me afterward to thank me for this message and agree with me. Then in the next sentence, they complained that the pulpit was not there today and it did not feel like worship without it (to them). To be honest, I reached a certain level of frustration with this comment. I am grateful for the other comments from people who had questions and wanted to push the message a little farther, because I kept wanting to come back to that first comment and shout "Did you really listen to anything? Am I the only one here who appreciates this irony?"

Whether they heard it or not, I remain grateful to be able to share these thoughts with my churh family and with you here.

Tom

quote:

We will learn how to be properly sexual as we understand the properly passionate relationship that God has with us. And we will learn how to be properly spiritual as we come to understand the true character of human longing and affection . . . God's passion created ours . . . If we are afraid of our sexuality, we are afraid of God .

Richard Rohr , "The Holiness of Human Sexuality", in Sojourners, 16 Oct, 1982.