Doesn't it seem like this is just an inexorable feature of human nature? The Buddhists describe it as the common wish of all beings to be happy. And while I still continue to learn from them, most recently Sharon Salzberg's CD version of her book "Loving Kindness," it seems to me that it is quite impossible for human beings to cease, of our own accord, from seeking an end to our suffering. This seeking to stop suffering not only creates suffering, and is an impulse impossible to overcome, but is perhaps a sign of what Christians mean by the Fall. We know that we yearn for more than we can create, but openness to that which is beyond our effort and design is not only not our initiative, but consent to it brings us to the foot of the Cross in ways that simply leave us, or find us, broken and with only the air left in our lungs.

But it is a relief to come to this end, and not by our own machinations, as it is not a created thing bound to wither on the vine of the imagination. When I bottom out and find myself here, what is perhaps most startling isn't the loving presence of God, but how far removed I normally am from who I really am, bare-boned.

None of this will matter tomorrow, as I'll be back on the work horse of this mortal-seeking coil. Any attempt to not be is an imposter for not being just that. Life hurts and we fall apart over and over until our bodies can't take it anymore. We're hung out to dry by fallenness, and hung on the Cross with Him. He takes the worst of it, but don't tell that to me when I'm living out decades of pain and can't find Him accept when life thoroughly unnerves me.

Yes, I know this a purification process, but in all honesty, I'm just not up for the full treatment. Sorry, but I'll never be a saint, and remain an admirer, with that peculiar feeling of regret each time I do let Him "in," and feel His majesty and tenderness.

Hi W.C.

This is such a basic component of human nature, 'trying not to suffer.' Yet, when I sense myself resisting whatever suffering life may send my way, I am reminded of Jesus who actually turned His face towards Jerusalem, the cross of Calvary, that is, and walked towards it instead of away from it. "Thy will be done" was the commitment He made to the Father in the garden. In the garden of your consciousness and mine, on the other hand, we tend to seek happiness and joy and flee from unhappiness, sadness, and all manner of suffering and unpleasantness.
So, how do we get from point 'A' to point 'B', from the garden of our choosing to the Gethsemane of God's will? From resistance to suffering to accepting and even embracing it? I agree with you. I really don't think that there is anything at all that we ourselves can do which, in and of itself, could cause such a profound change of attitude within us. There is no effort that we can make, no amount of teeth-clenching which, based on the innate powers of our own nature, will bring us to a place where we simply accept any and all suffering that comes our way. However, I do have a thought for you which may or may not be helpful.

You see, before you conclude that the solution to "trying not to suffer" is acceptance, rather than rejection, of suffering you first need to distinguish between the suffering that inevitably follows in the wake of our fallenness and the suffering that just as inevitably follows from a personal and deeply felt Gethsemane experience. There is a huge distinction between the two. For example, when you wrote �We're hung out to dry by fallenness, and hung on the Cross with Him. He takes the worst of it, but don't tell that to me when I'm living out decades of pain and can't find Him accept when life thoroughly unnerves me.� what your words were speaking to was the suffering and pain which God would alleviate in your life. Why? Because it is the inevitable consequence of our fallenness. He does not want us to suffer in this way and, indeed, the last thing he wants is for us to accept it. Reject that suffering with everything you have in you. It is not your lot in life for we were created to know joy, not sorrow and most certainly not �decades of pain.�

On the other hand, the suffering which follows from a deeply felt Gethsemane experience is born of a oneness with the Father in the Son which will cause your soul to sing out, �Not my will, but thy will be done.� This oneness, which is simply what you are in your innermost being, is your redemption and if you will accept it and surrender to it with all of your mind, heart, and soul your acceptance and surrender will free you and transform you in ways you cannot imagine. In this oneness any suffering that you experience in Christ, so to speak, is as unlike the suffering you are speaking of as night is from day. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things become new."

God bless,

Roger

Roger:

Thanks for what you've written. The distinction you make is a good one, but perhaps still not capturing the suffering I see in myself and others that simply occurs inspite of our beliefs, and even inspite of our transformation in faith, or those dark nights you allude to. I know several Christian monks, for instance, who are both good people and mature in the faith, yet knowing them as well as I do, the existential kind of pain I was describing still persists in their lives. If I didn't know them as friends, then my story about them would probably be the sort we hear about "saints," etc . . . . I have know a few "saints," but didn't know any of them as friends: two were monks, one Buddhist and one Christian, but without knowing them more than as teachers it is hard to say they were free of the existential pain via the grace of the Cross.

Not that I don't accept your distinctions; it's just that the tenure of human struggle usually involves these grey areas, where one simply isn't sure what's going on: where God feels distant, but is close except for our ability to perceive, and where our best attempts to surrender or make other accomodations to the heart don't relieve the pain. I do hospice work and see a number of patients who are suffering from chronic dementia, and while I'd never suppose they are without purpose, theirs are lives hidden from most of us and mostly only known to God. Their faculties are slowly taken away from them, a sense of order we take for granted in even to even being able to talk or think of these things, let alone for the sake of a prayer life as we know it, etc . . . And so I see God in them, but it is a much darker passage than what the rest of us endure. However, I also sense they are more often than not in the dream world, which in certain ways is closer in awareness to the spiritual world. So on the one hand they grope through their days like we do our nights; yet they are also closer to Him for not having the mental reflexes we rely upon, and to some extent, even when we say "Thy Will be done."

Hi W.C.

It's a broad subject, suffering in the context of one's spiritual journey. In your first post you mentioned that, �This seeking to stop suffering not only creates suffering, and is an impulse impossible to overcome, but is perhaps a sign of what Christians mean by the Fall.� Then, in your second post, you spoke of the suffering you see in yourself and others that �simply occurs in spite of our beliefs, and even in spite of our transformation in faith.� You also mentioned several Christian monks you know �who are both good people and mature in the faith�, yet this same kind of existential pain persists in their lives. This second statement has helped me to put the first into a context that is much more relevant to what you intended to convey. And you are right, I missed the point of what you were saying.

Although this is not exactly what you are speaking of, let me share a personal experience with you. My wife is quite ill and in December a surgeon will be removing most of her colon. As a result of her condition she suffers from horrendous migraines which are generated on an almost daily basis as a result of all of the toxins in her stomach. She also suffers from severe stomach pains, a terrible lack of energy and bouts of severe depression. I bring this up because her pain and suffering, which has been going on for months and months now, hurts me. I love her to bits and when someone you love so much suffers then you too will suffer right along with them. It's not the same, of course, but I think you get the point.

The problem, however, is that I sometimes get so caught up in her pain and struggles and my own in hers that I manage to distance myself from God and His Son in me. These can be spiritually dry and arid periods which only serve to aggravate the situation. Do I seek to bring this suffering to an end, hers that is? You bet I do! But when it gets down to where the rubber meets the road, that is not the same as saying that I would ever consider resisting the anguish that her suffering brings upon me. That anguish is a direct consequence of my deep love for her and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

I should also add, though, that I rarely bring her pain and suffering to the quiet time that I set aside each day to simply rest in His presence. I say rarely because sometimes I just can't seem to do otherwise. I pray for her daily, of course. But twice every day, in the morning and in the evening, I spend time alone with the Christ in me and that time is the hub around which everything else in my life flows.

God bless,
And thanks for clarifying things for me.

Roger

Roger:

So very powerful, and beautiful. What shoes you travel in, right down to the bare bones. And Christ is keen for this, no doubt. I always find Him there waiting for me once all else has failed. Not that I don't turn to Him otherwise, but there's something unique about finding Him over and over again at the bottom when there's simply no more control over life's uncanny anguish. He can "come and make His home in us" beyond our faculties, and is working through the Holy Spirit at all times, like water finding its way into the most imperceptible crevices. I get this sense that He is undoing me behind the scenes and that this is best left completely alone, and must in some ways be that way, even inspite of the importance of making myself available to Him consciously.

Thanks for sharing this intimacy with us. I'll keep you and your wife in my prayers, as I'm sure many here at Shalom Place will as well.

Roger and WC, This is Cathydot, I've had my journey w/ suffering both physical and spiritual. I've learned that learning to accept and become friends w/whatever illness or disability that is thrown your way is the only way to conquer the fea and learn true acceptance and growth. God always has something to teach us through each thing we are exposed to in our lives I've also tried to step back and ask His Guidance and listen to what He is trying to teach me thjrough all that is occurring. I've had 4 Brainstem strokes and also 6 cardiacStents placed. I've had both cognitive and physical disabilities as a result but God works through it all and teaches us to be open to Him in more ways then we can imagine. I've learned to be more trustful and open to His graces and that all will be well no matter what... That's some Grace....It hasn't been an easy road but God has blessed me and Led me and He is their If we are open and listen and just Trust. Suffering is a Blessing and has a purpose if we have a Redemtive attitude of gradititude.... Cathy

Cathy and Roger, those are major struggles you've been contending with. What a mockery such trials can make of the "prosperity myth" -- that God rewards the faithful with good health, wealth, and a wide, smooth road to travel.

In my experience, it is precisely suffering that cracks the hard nut of the false self open, enabling God's grace to "grow me" in ways I can scarecely believe, at times. As w.c. noted, I get this sense that He is undoing me behind the scenes and that this is best left completely alone, and must in some ways be that way, even inspite of the importance of making myself available to Him consciously. Very well said.

Cathy, you make a good distinction between redemptive and non-redemptive suffering. I'm thinking you and others might connect with some of what I've written on this.
- See chapter 4 in The Meaning of the Resurrection and
- chapter 6 of The Meaning of the Crucifixion.
You can read these online by choosing the "lite" versions of each.

Roger and Cathy:

It's good to have you both share how these extreme afflictions are hidden openings to the Holy Spirit. One thing that helps me so much in doing hospice work is seeing how those who suffer far more than I do now are opening to Him through a kind of letting go we can't produce on our own out of some noble feeling.

One thing which I'd like to see more of in churches is regular offerings of prayer in small groups, meeting regularly as a way of reforming the psycho-spirituality of community. As uncanny and transformative as the Eucharist is, meeting for prayer together seems as much a part of the early church's core life and practice as the sacraments. It is sadly neglected, and I'm in the process of looking for another parish just for this reason alone.

IOW, suffering together, and suffering alone, are such different experiences. There is inevitable aloneness in moments, but coming together to pray and just be with each other with no tasks imposed seems an opening or consent in us that He eagerly awaits. Also, prayer together seems to fortify and heal the psyche in ways that may be missing through prayer alone even where the Holy Spirit is present. That is at least my experience, in terms of how the Holy Spirit can leave us raw, hours or days later, through the activation of kundalini that needs human nourishment, especially where there are developmental deficits or traumas awakened. Being with others in the midst of prayer seems to address these needs almost automatically.

Hi Cathy,

When you shared with us that you have suffered four brainstem strokes and that you have accepted and somehow learned to become friends with the day to day suffering that followed in the wake of that experience your words, "That's some grace" said it all. And it is so true. How else but through divine grace is such strength and such an extraordinary attitude possible? You are an example to us all! Thank you for sharing.

God bless,

Roger

W.C.

I couldn't agree with you more about churches developing small groups meeting to pray together and respond to one another's special needs. A few years ago I was part of nine groups that functioned somewhat like 'house churches' in our city which aimed at attracting people who wouldn't normally be attracted to an institutional church setting. The groups were very bible centered and would have two prayer times during an evening one of which would focus on people's needs, while the other would focus on the twofold theme of praise and thanksgiving. It was a great experience for us all and reminds me of what you were speaking of. Thought you might be interested in that.

God bless,

Roger

Roger:

Sounds good. I've been a part of a prayer group with no more than 8-10 people for an extended period of time before, and not only found it to generate community beyond what the institutional setting tends to provide, but also to give me more tolerance for that larger atmosphere. However, if I could meet in a smaller community with these regular weekly times for group prayer I can't say I'd miss the bigger sanctuaries.

Hi Guys, I've found that since I'm homebound a good part of the time one has to learn to be comfortable w/ being alone and at peace w/ it. I also have found great comfort w/ the internet community. I tend to be a lurker a good part of the time as i have writtne aphasia and it takes a lond time for me to write out how I think and feel sometimes a few sentences can take a 1/2 hr. But I've learned so much by reading and being able to share w/ others. I can only read on the computer as I can enlarge the font to read and that is my one joy the rest of the time I listen to audiotapes or I quilt and pray or play w/ my nie grandchildren what a joy they are and how can one deny God when you see a Child. I probablt have written things wrong too. So ecuse the goofs. But pray can take place in many forms if you allow it I pray cessellessly because I look for God in all I do and say. If you have that attitude of gratitude and God will give you the graces of peace and fortitude to cope and deal w/ daily burdens and trials with grace and love. Love to me is unconditional I've always told are cjildren no matter what you have done I will always love you that hate the sin but love the sinner.... They know that to be true and know the forgiveness is always there. I have to because God does it for me so who am I to say no. Enough rambling from the brain damaged... Cath

Cathy:

Thanks for being here at Shalom. I'm beginning to notice my mortality in new ways as my body weakens with age, perhaps partly due to a sister with a certain neuromuscular disease that may have been passed on to me in some ways not yet diagnosed as a disease pre-disposition. So having you share how your health crisis has brought you through the narrow gate to Him is a real boon for me. I really mean that . . . such a help.

There's so much to let go of, but ultimately only He can generate this transformation from the inside-out. I'm afraid of how deeply He can touch me, but gradually return to Him with more consent. Growing older is a natural encouragement for this, even as it brings a sadness for lost periods of life not lived well, or not lived as others seem able to do so, along with being with my hospice clients as they make their graced departures.

Cathy:

Here are some of my favorite passages from two saints dear to the heart (maybe you've seen them posted on other threads: both Julian of Norwich and John of the Cross experienced their deepest transformations during near death moments via disease or during periods of oppression):

______________________________________


"But I lay still awake, and then our Lord opened my spiritual eyes, and showed me my soul in the midst of my heart. I saw my soul as wide as if it were a kingdom, and from the state which I saw in it, it seemed to me as if it were a fine city. In the midst of this city sits our Lord Jesus, true God and true man, a handsome person and tall, honorable, the greatest Lord. And I saw him splendidly clad in honors. He sits erect there in the soul, in peace and rest, and he rules and he guards heaven and earth and everything that is. The humanity and the divinity sit at rest, and the divinity rules and guards, without instrument or effort. And my soul is blessedly occupied by the divinity, sovereign power, sovereign wisdom, sovereign goodness.

The place which Jesus takes in our soul he will nevermore vacate, for in us is his home of homes, and it is the greatest delight for him to dwell there. This was a delectable and a restful sight, for it is so in truth forevermore; and to contemplate this while we are here is most pleasing to God, and very great profit to us. And the soul who thus contemplates is made like to him who is contemplated, and united to him in rest and peace. And it was a singular joy and bliss to me that I saw him sit, for the contemplation of this sitting revealed to me the certainty that he will dwell in us forever; and I knew truly that it was he who had revealed everything to me before. And when I had contemplated this with great attention, our Lord very humbly revealed words to me, without voice and without opening of lips, as he had done before, and said very seriously: Know it well, it was no hallucination which you saw today, but accept and believe it and hold firmly to it, and you will not be overcome."


"Julian of Norwich: Showings," in Classics of Western Spirituality, 1978, pp. 163-164.

__________________________________________

And from St. John of the Cross:

"What more do you want, o soul! And what else do you search for outside, when within yourself you possess your riches, delights, satisfaction and kingdom -- your beloved whom you desire and seek? Desire him there, adore him there. Do not go in pursuit of him outside yourself. You will only become distracted and you won't find him, or enjoy him more than by seeking him within you."

Hi Julianna of Norwich and John of the Cross along w/ Teresa of Avila have been my mainstays for over 25 years. I've read much and listened to many tapes and books by Van Kaam and Muto and the Journey in Formative Spirituality. I've love the Practical giude to spirituality and all the books it recommends and the processes it teches. I've done it 20 yrs or more. I've also followed the Jesuit spirituality for over 35 yrs w/ Spirtual direction. So I've been blessed. I was an RN case Mgr and Also worked w/ patients in Hospice and in home care in Rehab for yrs. So I know how great it is to be touched by souls and to get more than you give. I loved working w/ the poor and learned so much and was so graced from what I felt was ministry not a job. I would take my kids and show them where I worked and how other people actually lived in paper shacks and dirt floors without water and heat in our frigid winters... It sure made them learn to appreciate all they had. I always tried to show our children that giving of self and sharing wa essential in life and is what Christ calls us to do and thanks be to God they all do just that in simple ways but beautifully. My son is a Corrections Officer and Brings Christ into daily life by tolerance and showing respect and tolerance to prisoners and murders. It's amazing how love can be shown and how respect can be gained even by a HItman.... Cathy

Hi Cathy and W.C.,

I have drifted away from this thread for the last few days and am sorry I did. You two have been engaging in a wonderful exchange of thoughts and experiences and I have appreciated reading what you have shared. I envy you both your extensive background in the mystical experiences and teachings of such saints as Julian of Norwich, John of the Cross, and Teresa of Avila.

When you mentioned Cathy that your son is a corrections officer it kind of jolted me because about 30 years ago I served nearly 18 months in prison for petty theft type charges. These days, of course, a person would never serve that kind of time for that kind of crime, but then is not now. I have hesitated to share this with the group because there is a lot of very deep shame connected with it. And, of course, I wondered, What will people think? Or maybe it is more sharing than would be appropriate. And yet, here I am. I wonder if there has ever been an ex-con in this group?

The consequences of sin in our lives can really be something. Can they not? We bring so much of our own pain and suffering down upon ourselves. And, yet, that very pain and suffering can lead us home to the God who would rush to us and embrace us with His unconditional love, mercy, and forgiveness. I could never have possibly imagined 30 years ago that God in His Son, the Christ whom we tabernacle, would actually invite a thief to His banquet table or, for that matter, that I would even be interested in such a table.

My prison experience was unforgettable. It is a world where might is right and violence is just a part of everyday life. And yet, and I am ashamed to say, I adapted better than many.

What did I learn from that experience? Not much for the first few years, other than I swore to myself that I would never again do anything that could cause me to be put back in that place. Some years later, though, I realized that not all prisons are made of steel and stone and that many people live in a prison they call their minds. More importantly, when it comes to understanding the true meaning of the word freedom, I have a point of reference that many would never want to know, even in their worst nightmares.

I hope I haven't just revealed a part of me that might have been better left unsaid.

God bless,

Roger

Hey Roger,

So glad that you shared, I for one truly appreciate openness and intimacy through truly knowing one another. How else to know if we do not share. Thank you for trusting us with your story. Our stories form such a big part of who we are. Thank you.

I might not ever have spent time in jail, but I certainly have done stuff that would have gotten me there if I had been caught. While I was on drugs (which alone would have sent me to prison had I been caught), I also sold drugs to buy myself more drugs. I thank God that I never had to spend time in jail, but I know that it could easily have been different.

I pray for ongoing openess and sharing in this group. May Jesus be glorified as we share our lives with one another.

Much Love in the Lord Jesus
Jacques

Hi Guys, Who am I to cast stones, I come fro a family of 3 alcoholic brothers, one whom molested me as a child. So see we all have our ghosts and skeletons. But I have found that bitterness and hate lead to nothing but more bitterness and self hate. So forgiveness and moving forward was the only way I could function through the grace ogf God. I've often wondered why I've been so blessed that I didn't become addicted or compulsive or whatever. Yet I did have deep scars for a good part of my life that deeply affected me. But through God's blessings even as a child I was able to go and seek help from priests and others and reached out knowing somewhere God would lead me. I trusted. I have no idea why as I was so young. But a life can be blessed and God is truly there all the time even during those dark horrible events and reaches into our hearts and minds and brings us forward. My Dad taught me one of the most beautiful lessons on unconditional love and I thank him for showing me the face of God. Cath

Hi All, I am new to this forum and coming onto this thread late. I too learned about suffering as a very young child. My mother a few years after my birth underwent thyroid surgery and following had a complete mental breakdown and eventually was diagnosed as a schizophrenic. Now that I am nearing my 50th birthday, and have been an R.N. for nearly 30 years, I am able to understand the complexities of her illness, but living with her delusional behavior was very difficult as a young child to understand and live with. Needless to say my life was anxiety ridden from as early as I can remember. But by the Grace of God I had a "normal" grandmother and loving father who tried to fill in the pieces as best they could. I managed to make my way through life, go to college, and eventually marry a wonderful man. I really thought as I entered my adult years my my anxiety ridden life was becomming a distant memory, but in 2001 I began my true Dark Night of the Soul. On 11/29/01 I discovered my beloved husband who was my refuge and his love the medicine that eased the PTSD of my childhood in cardiac arrest on my kitchen floor. My attempts to revive him were futile, and the grief of his loss I suffered is beyond description. Again, by The Grace of God I began to recover from my grief and ease back into life. Life was beginning to look up as I got a great new job where I could support myself , and eventually met a wonderful man who fell in love with me despite by scars. About a year into my newly evolving life I began to not feel quite well and although I did not have any major symptoms I knew something was seriously wrong with me gynecologically. I made my way to the doctor, and nothing was found on initial exam, but I relayed my fears that my mother was diagnosed with uterine cancer around my age and requested a biopsy be performed. My doctor agreed and performed the biopsy "to put my mind at ease". A week later I learned I too had uterine cancer. Again, By the Grace of God my cancer was found to be at a very early stage and the only treatment I required was a hysterectomy. I began to recover as expected, but about 6 months after my surgery all h--l
broke loose as I suspect I entered an abrupt surgical menopause which I believed prompted a kundalini crisis which manifested by an intense panic disorder where I developed globus hystericus where I literally could not swallow my own saliva and was so distraught I was seriously considering suicide. Again, By the Grace of God I was led to a place where I got the help I needed to at least get me to a place where I could function. Yes, today my life and health is better, but I still give God a peace of my mind about "where were YOU when I was so broken". And his reply is always I was there with the support of your grandmother and the constant love of your father in your broken childhood, and I was there in the love of your gentile husband through your marriage, and I was there in your husband's death giving you numerous signs that he was now with ME and at peace, and I was there in your doctor's mind and hands to diagnose and remove your cancer, and I was there when I brought this new man into your life to help and love you through you sickness, and I was there inspiring the counselor who helped you through your suicidal crisis, and I was there with you in the continual support of your parish priest who prayed for and with you through these difficult times, and I will ALWAYS be there even if you do not always reconize my presence and think I have abandoned you in your times of need and you turn away from me during these times, I will ALWAYS understand and ALWAYS love you and NEVER leave you as I created you and know your weaknesses better than you do and that is why I created GRACE.

Nightengale
thanks for your post. It has answered a few questions for me. My mother is schizophrenic and while I am blessed by the fact that we can both acknowledge past pain I am still left with emotional scars> My big question, and please re-direct me to a more suitable topic page if this isn`t a good one, is if our `sin`( for me anything that takes us away from a place of love , this can include negative thoughts or repeated behaviours) or falleness stems from brokeness how do we choose not to sin? Whats the difference between letting things be (as in a more meditative approach) and actively being aware of the tendency to be drawn to some things as a way to fill in missing pieces.
For me when I try to run away from the suffering I feel it only makes it worse, when i am able to be with the suffering its not easy but it seems that i am not double feeling pain and then trying to control feelings about that if that makes sense
Thankyou for your sharing