see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZbQBajYnEc

Well-done!

As I've mentioned before, I have known this type of prayer since 1973, when JB and our deceased friend, Herman, prayed over me in the chapel at the Univ. of Southwestern La. late one night. The gift has grown through the years and is a "staple" in my prayer life, suggesting itself all throughout the day. I consider it a type of contemplation in that it is non-discursive and communicates God's presence. It has also been, for me, instrumental in helping to balance and integrate those deep energies of the soul called "kundalini."

Interestingly, this form of prayer was well-known in the early Church, but seems to have practically disappeared afterwards -- until the turn of the 20th C., that is, and the "pentecostal movement," which has swept through all of Christendom.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia for a good discussion. The only point I'd take issue with is that it manifests during states of "intense religious excitement." That's not my experience at all. As I've noted, it manifests all day long in pretty much any circumstance. Also, this prayer is not "uncontrollable," as some indicate. One is free to give utterance or not, silently or aloud. The more the mind gets involved, however, the less authentic the prayer, however, so maybe that's what they mean.

Thoughts? Comments? Experiences?

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Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, (1 Cor. 14: 4)

Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues (1 Cor. 14: 5)

For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive (1 Cor. 14: 14)

I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, (1 Cor. 14, 18)

Hi Phil,

I believe I had started a thread on this topic some time ago sharing a bit about my experiences with speaking in tongues...don't know that I want to link up with that now necessarily, but thought I'd mention it.

I'm not where I can watch the video right now, but in that thread I recall having reported on a study using brain imaging on women in whom they compared periods of tongue-speaking and gospel singing (I believe it was).

In short, I totally agree with you that tongues (praying in the Spirit) does not need an atmosphere, internally or externally, of "intense religious excitement" although I notice it often picks up pace when I'm around others who are praying earnestly--whether or not they are praying in the Spirit themselves.

I can go on and on with this topic, but wanna share breifly that I am deeply appreciative of this most mysterious, awesome gift. There is nothing in the world like this gift! It truly is like the Holy Spirit praying through you.

And like you, Phil, I've felt it pushing out of me during times of crisis and bringing about a supernatural kind of equilibrium to my psyche/soul. Praise God!! and praise Him some more!!

Phil, I hear you that you don't feel out of control in speaking in tongues. But have you noticed, Phil or others, that praying in the Spirit seems to "take over" at times when praying in English seems ineffectual or not quite hitting the target?

This happens to me quite often when I'm praying with somebody. I will begin in English and there will come a point when I feel I've 'run out' of the right words or I have a strong sense that I am to pray in another way which cannot be apprehended or that the person cannot bear to hear. At this point, the Holy Spirit literally takes over and prays through me. Sometimes this has occured in mid-sentence! That seems really weird, but I just KNOW I cannot go on with that sentence and must switch over.

There is a very deep sense of satisfaction and peace that I feel once I've prayed in the Spirit for somebody when I can submit to God to be used as a vessel.
Conversely, there is sometimes a sense of incompleteness and frustration when I feel I cannot pray for somebody in the Spirit, if I feel confined to praying only in English for whatever reason.

Especially, when I'm asked for prayer for something specific that does not feel right to me, I will ask if I can pray for them in the Spirit. Thus, I know I am praying God's Will and intentions for them.

Other times, praying in the Spirit will 'break open' a new way to pray for somebody in English. It's as if the Spirit has now revealed to me a deeper understanding of this person's needs and I can translate what I've just said into English.

At the same time, I've also felt like God uses plain English to pray through me, and this can produce the same deeply satisfying sense of doing God's Will.

As far as the brain imaging research from the clip above, the scientific thinker in me sees some serious methodological flaws. Unless it's in his paper and not the clip, I'd note that the research design would need to include some other gibberish-like language as a control condition to see if that doesn't also produce diminished frontal lobe activity. This could be simple to implement by having subjects read or repeat non-sense words.

Wish I had the time to do it myself...!

How do they address the issue that the disciples in Acts were talking in intelligible languages, and that St. Paul advises against unintelligible speaking in tongues?

Derek, Acts doesn't say they were all talking in intelligible languages, only that each person understood them in their own language.

I think if you read 1 Cor. 14, you'll find that Paul doesn't advise against speaking in tongues, only against doing so in prayer meetings where it might give scandal to visitors. In prayer services, he counsels for interpretation of tongues by prophets.

- - -

Shasha . . . amen and "ditto" to all the points you've made. I'll have more comment on this later.

Just noticed the topic on Tongues. May I recommend a book by Father Morton T. Kelsey- who an Episcopal minister and Jungian Psycholgist- called:

"Tongue Speaking: An Experiment in Spiritual Experience."

Publisher: DoubleDay; [Waymark ed.] edition (1968)
Language: English
ASIN: B0007DQROS

http://www.amazon.com/Tongue-s...id=1223272740&sr=8-2

Just wanted to respond to Mateusz that I have prayed in tongues in my dreams. I've heard of this happening to many people, but it seems they're folks who pray consciously in the Spirit. Maybe this gift is for you too!

From the discussion on the other thread, which I'm bringing over here because it seems like the right thing to do , there emerged an interesting point that I want to understand clearly. And two questions:

1) are there different 'modes' of praying in tongues?

2) do the different modes achieve different ends?

From Caneman's experience, speaking in tongues for him is something that he 'turns on' deliberately and then waits on God, Whose Presence he then may experience. That's why he calls in acquired contempation, right?

Phil points out that in what he's calling spontaneous glossalalia, it feels more like infused contemplation in that it "suggests itself" and one is "not doing it on one's own."

So maybe there's a kind of continuum in which this gift "operates," if I can say it crudely. On one end, one may 'turn on' speaking in tongues at will and experience that the HS is giving one the actual words. An experience of His Presence can meet the the person praying after that in contemplation as Caneman writes--that's why he calls is acquired contemplation.

On the other extreme end of the continuum, it feels like one is quite literally 'grabbed' by the HS and the prayer pushes itself out in a fairly uncontrollable way. This has been my experience many times. So to me, it does feel out of control, in that stopping the flow would require an extreme, forceful act of self-will-- very unpleasant and totally counter to the surrendered state to which I feel called.

Other times, it feels like what Phil describes above, a calmer flowing of words which come, though unbidden, and the shower of these words feels very much like God is present and moving through you.

Question # 2: And I wonder if these different modes of praying in tongues achieves different ends. I think so as I feel that in the the quieter tongue-praying, I am being "built up" or "repaired" somehow...and Phil shares about how tongue-speaking has helped him in "balancing and integrating" kundalini energies. In the forceful gushing out of tongue-speaking, I feel like I'm interceding for someone else and/or doing spiritual warfare of sorts for self/others.

Caneman and Phil-- does that make sense to you? Did I characterize your experiences accurately?

Shasha... that sounds pretty good, I just wanted to add a few more clarifications and explanations...

My initial experience with tongues several years was not "ecstatic"... I was asking God for the gift and waited on the Holy Spirit, and I "saw" the words "with my spiritual vision", as I said the first word more of them came until there was a short phrase... since then that is all I received, and for me, when I want to pray in tongues I just slowly repeat this phrase over and over... it is a conscious willful act on my part... to pray in this way has developed into a type of "acquired contemplation" (not the gift of infused contemplation), which is nondiscursive meditative prayer, and it is a way for me to wait before the indwelling Presence of Jesus by faith... When I pray in tongues in this way it is much more difficult for my mind not to think stray thoughts, and it helps me to keep my spiritual gaze upon the Lord by faith... what is interesting is that some of these words are Hebrew, but I haven't really analyzed all of them!

I look forward to furthering this discussion...

Caneman

Hi All,

My experience is almost identical to Caneman's. I received the gift about 8 years ago when a pastor prayed for me to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I immediately felt "drunk" with joy and was giggling and praying in tongues.

I then went through a period of doubt regarding the charismatic movement and questioned my tongue speaking. A couple of years later while studying theology at a Baptist college I was prayed for again and was told God wants to give me the gift of tongues. I told the woman that I had already received the gift and she said that I should use it. She prayed for me and I began to speak again.

I used the gift from time to time, but was still unsure regarding it's authenticity as I could also speak at will at any time (though I do feel a shift inside when I speak as though the words come from somewhere inside my chest/throat rather than my mind).

While I cannot recall the words I spoke the first time or the second time I now speak only one phrase. I can begin speaking at any time and simply repeat the phrase over and over and over (another reason why I wonder about it's authenticity - although hearing Caneman's account has made me feel a little more confident that it may be genuine tongue speaking.

While I can begin speaking at any time, there are times when I feel led to speak, like when I am already praying but feel that my words are not enough; when I feel a strong reaching out to the Lord that cannot be expressed with my own words but that must be expressed verbally; when I want to keep my attention on God without becoming distracted.

Also worth noting, there are times when I will start speaking the phrase through an act of my own will but will stop as it doesn't "feel right".

I suppose my doubt comes from the fact that the phrase is so well known to me that I can speak it using my memory of the words and probably even write it down, though I have never tried.

quote:

Originally posted by Jacques:
[qb] ...I used the gift from time to time, but was still unsure regarding it's authenticity as I could also speak at will at any time (though I do feel a shift inside when I speak as though the words come from somewhere inside my chest/throat rather than my mind).

...
Also worth noting, there are times when I will start speaking the phrase through an act of my own will but will stop as it doesn't "feel right".

. [/qb]

Jacques,

Your experience certainly sounds authentic to me. The "shift" that you describe above from mind to chest/throat is consistent with the findings of the study reported above by Newburg. His subjects showed decreased frontal lobe activity in the praying in tongues condition compared to their praying or singing in English. We expect to see frontal lobe activity during the use of language; so tongue-speaking, as measured by neurological activity, is not some variant of language usage.

(BTW, I think Newburg needs a gibberish condition to show that gibberish, a variant of language activity, would in fact activate frontal lobe activity).

This is why when tongue-speaking happens to you (and me) it doesn't feel like it's generated by/through our minds. Those words don't go through the brain; they seem powered by the HS as God gives utterance through us. God's words, in the case of tongue-speaking, just push out of our spirits (which don't need the brain/mind).

So at times when you try to force it, as you say above, try using your own will, it doesn't feel right. This is because the words don't make "sense" to the brain, only to your spirit when God's Spirit joins you. That's how I see it....

Christ's peace to you!

Kristi, it's obvious that you're open to this gift, so if God wants to give it to you, it will come, in due time. Meanwhile, as you noted, the Rosary is a similar kind of prayer and more accessible to everyone. Also, as you also imply, one can be filled with the Spirit and not speak in tongues. That's good to remember, too.

Kristi, and others,

I have prayed in tongues -- as did many in the charismatic prayer community I was a part of many years back. I don’t so much anymore, but do on occasion. It’s not some ‘being taken over by the force of the Spirit”. It’s at your decision to use.

You might, I think, conceptualize it as praying from the right side of your brain. Your cognitive faculty is not being used, just your mouth and your spirit. 1 Cor 14:14 says essentially this. “If I pray in a tongue my spirit is at prayer but my mind contributes nothing.”

The brain is a marvelous organ. I recall my brother-in-law telling me he had gone to visit his father who had had a stroke. He had been visiting his dad in the hospital for several days and his father couldn’t speak. My brother-in-law entered his father’s room one night and his father was singing a song. He exclaimed, “Hey, dad, you’ve got your voice back!” His father stopped singing, looked at him, and didn’t (couldn’t) say a word in reply.

His conceptualizing faculty on the left side of his brain was damaged, but his memory (used for singing) was fine.

Praying in tongues is kind of like that. Using non-cognitive speaking.

Praying in tongues is kind of an active apophatic means of praying, whereas contemplative prayer is kind of a passive apophatic means of praying. One is vocal, the other silent. Neither attempt to engage the intellect.

Anyway, that’s how I would describe it all. So praying in tongues isn’t some hippie dippie prayer technique that means one has attained some new level of holiness. It’s just another prayer form for one’s toolbox. No big emotional or spiritual high is involved, just the decision to pray.

What it does call forth initially, is putting faith in the thinking that God prompts and hears your praying when you pray in this way – ‘uttering unintelligible speech’ as it says in 1Cor 14:9. So it gets you to step out in faith a bit, putting trust in the reality (mystery) of the Spirit’s presence in you.

Pop-pop

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:
It’s not some ‘being taken over by the force of the Spirit”. It’s at your decision to use.

... No big emotional or spiritual high is involved, just the decision to pray...

Pop-pop

I know Phil has suggested the same thing here. However, I'd like to add that I think the phenomenon is more complicated than that, at least in some people.

For me, praying in tongues seems to be on a continuum. On one extreme, it does feel like the Holy Spirit literally rushes upon me and words pour out of me, my whole being surrendered to worship and praising in this language. Could I make it stop if I wanted? Yes, if there was a fire alarm and people began screaming and running out of the room. But generally, my sense is that at these times, one is 'taken over' by the Holy Spirit and clearly God is in control. One is completely surrendered, open, overcome... overcome with what...? IDK, with mystery. Maybe at these times, it's more like trance or rapture, I don't know...?

And the way I first received the gift of tongues could be precisely categorized as "being taken over by the force of the Holy Spirit." It was in response to my state of terror in the face of a demonic encounter. I never wanted to or asked to speak in tongues, so there was no conscious decision involved at all.

Here’s a clip from my testimony years ago:
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A few days later, I had another terrifying attack. I think of them as fear attacks because these beings are somehow able to invoke great terror in one’s body. Following this attack, I promptly got out of bed to pray. I prayed earnestly for the Lord to protect me. Then suddenly, without any warning, a stream of word fragments, like nonsense syllables, blurted out of my mouth. I had never wanted to speak in tongues, but this is apparently what was happening. It felt like this other language was the only way I could communicate my great spiritual crisis and pleading for help. By now, my devotion to Christ Jesus consumed me day and night.
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I didn’t write it here, but these terrifying beings receded instantly as I prayed in tongues. Since then, I’ve sensed that praying in tongues is also a form of spiritual warfare. At times, I’ve sensed that the praying is literally a combatting of evil, the words infused with power to overcome obstacles. That’s my sense of what happened in my inauguration of tongue-speaking.

On the other end of the continuum, praying in tongues feels more like a gentle, deliberate pacing and spacing of words. One can detect God is forming the words but it feels more like a cooperative venture of wills. I decide to pray, and God joins me. I switch to this kind of praying very often when I've started praying for somebody out loud in English. There will be a pause because I don't know how to pray, and then BOOM, tongues will take over, sometimes to finish in mid-sentence what I started in English. This is GOOD because God knows how to pray for people when I don't!

I think it was JB, quoted by Phil some time ago: Praying in tongues is the most intelligent thing I say. Did I get that right, Phil?

Kristi,

I think it’s wonderful that you’re sharing your interest and desire in speaking in tongue. And this thread is a perfect place to do that, so no worries about that. I love you, dear Kristi!

Kristi,

Have you ever heard anyone pray in tongues? I think that you'll benefit from just being around people who pray freely in the Spirit. You're so sensitive that you are likely to feel the love and 'understand' what is being prayed just being around tongue-speaking. I certainly do not have the rare gift on interpreting tongues, but sometimes, I somehow somewhat 'understand' what is said when somebody is praying in tongues. It's like I 'hear' the meaning with my spirit, and it's fulfilling. I feel good stuff pouring out.