I heard a very true saying that says something like "Protestants who know church history cease to be Protestants".

My problem is I know world history and can see the Catholic church in the context of thousands of years of world history, over fifty thousand years of humans walking the earth and countless religions. From an objective point of this historical view why even be christian let alone Catholic?

I have read and loved Scott Hann. He is so on fire for the Catholic faith and before that he was on fire for his Calvinist faith. Through gods grace and the study of history he came to the Catholic Church. I am a cradle Catholic and attend mass daily. I however love ancient world history. From the perspective of world history the True Faith doesn't look so true anymore.

Help me but don't tell me to pray, have faith or just stick to it. I have done all those things for years and now I want intellectual answers so I can convince my mind and give my heart a break.

I posted this question on Catholic Answers and got flamed for being an athiest posting to cause trouble. I also posted this on a kundalini support site and have gotten some pretty heavy anti-Catholic bias.

Ones too hot for me, and ones too cold. Is this a good question for this site?

Darin:

You may have come to the right place. I doubt you'll offend anyone here that I'm familiar with recently and over the years of posting with anything like honest, critical inquiry, including serious questioning of your Catholic faith. Phil is great at fielding such questions and is mature enough as a spiritual direction to see the value in both intellectual and psychological processes that may not necessarily look like they fit the doctrinal scheme of things.

Welcome.

Echoing w.c.'s gracious welcom, Darin . . .

It sounds like you've got a lot of questions about a lot of issues. Maybe take a look at this thread and browse around some of the forums for awhile to see if we've already addressed some of them. The forum search tool also works great if you put in the keywords that interest you.

Hope to hear more from you.

Thanks for the thread Phil. I explored this site for awile before I joined. I don't have a lot of doubts about the Faith. I can rationalize away any idea I have that seems contrary to the Faith. I am extremely well read. I just wonder about the Faith and want to wonder out loud sometimes. I especially like your kundalini experiences.

Homo Sapiens appeared over fifty thousand years ago I think. Why didn't God form covenents back then and not send Jesus fifty thousand years ago?

Homo Sapiens appeared over fifty thousand years ago I think. Why didn't God form covenents back then and not send Jesus fifty thousand years ago?

We don't know when what we call "the Fall" took place. Also, sending Jesus is one thing, but having a culture to receive what he had to offer was another.

Good signature!

Phil,

I suppose...

Have you ever read the Zohar?

Darin

From an objective point of this historical view why even be christian let alone Catholic?� Help me but don't tell me to pray, have faith or just stick to it. I have done all those things for years and now I want intellectual answers so I can convince my mind and give my heart a break.

I think that�s a wonderfully worded request, Darin. It�s straight and to the point.

If I may speak frankly, I find Catholicism to be too smothering (Protestantism ain�t much better.). And I�m not sure how I could ever come to a profound and sincere understanding of Christianity (not that I do�I most decidedly don�t) if I had been brought up in Catholicism since childhood. I would think the logical state one would be in, particularly considering the influences of this postmodern cynical world, would be a state of doubt. We tend to view human beings and truth as completely subjective. One might therefore suspect that had one been raised a Hindu or Muslim that one would have the same relationship to their faith as perhaps they do to their Catholicism: one can defend it and rationalize it intellectually, but perhaps some deeper ratification escapes the heart.

Let me assure you that doubt is your friend, not your enemy. (Beware those faiths who suppress doubt!). Every time you go sincerely into doubt there is a much better than even chance that you will come out the other end with both a strengthened faith and a more coherent and logical reason.

Reality exists. It is an ongoing story. There�s no escaping this fact. Even completely atheistic scientists would agree to this as they would acknowledge that this is an evolving universe (via evolution, if nothing else). And anything that is a story has a plot of some kind. And every story has themes and meaning. It is our human endeavor to uncover that. We do so imperfectly, in my opinion. But what do we say when we come to a central figure in this story who says such incredible things as "Love your enemy" or "Turn the other cheek"? And what do we say about such beliefs and traditions, when properly understood and genuinely taken to heart, that bear such good fruit?�good fruit such as St. Francis, Mother Teresa and others?

I like to keep in mind that faith does not require gullibility or the submission to things that one doesn�t really believe in one�s heart and mind. In my opinion, Christianity (as written, if not always as practiced) is the ideal faith for those searching for both faith and truth. You can find cynicism and arrogance in any number of places in this world � including in Christianity. But you will not find these things as part of the official core message of Christianity. The same can not be said for many (if not most) other systems of beliefs (and by "systems of beliefs" I�m including much more than just religions�I�m including the many other ways that people, in practice, live their worldviews and it can be via political, economic or even environmental philosophies�most of which are heavily infiltrated by anger, hatred, and cynicism, not true brotherly and sisterly love).

And that in the end is what counts. What is it that facilitates love? There is no other like Jesus in that regard.

Thats funny, you think the Catholic church is smothering and I don't think it goes far enough. I agree with doubts being good. The more I doubt the more I search into my faith and other faiths.

When I read in the Catechism that those outside the Catholic Church can come to know the True God and be saved without knowledge of Christ I was very disappointed. It would make more sense and give me greater certainty to say "there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church" and mean it.

If there are circumstances that can lead to true salvation without Jesus then I would prefer that way. It seems that would make me stronger than just having it handed to me. If I can fully know, love and serve God without the Catholic Church then why be in it?

When I read in the Catechism that those outside the Catholic Church can come to know the True God and be saved without knowledge of Christ I was very disappointed. It would make more sense and give me greater certainty to say "there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church" and mean it.

On the other hand, Darin, I would be extremely disturbed and disheartened to imagine that in ultimate reality was a god just as unimaginative and provincial as we humans. Surely it does not take a rocket scientist to see that Christ came at a certain time and that this time was after millions (if not billions) of other humans had already lived and died. Therefore any Ultimate message or reality is going to obviously cut across both time and geographical (not to mention religious) boundaries.

If there are circumstances that can lead to true salvation without Jesus then I would prefer that way. It seems that would make me stronger than just having it handed to me.

I�m not sure anything is handed to anyone just because they have the label of "Catholic" on them. It makes sense to me that an evil "Catholic" is worse in the eyes of god than a truly loving and compassionate Buddhist. I don�t think Christianity is about having your salvation card punched, so to speak, and then that�s it. And frankly, I�m a fairly heretical Christian to begin with so you probably won�t want to take my advice. I seriously think that our Ultimate Concern is about spiritual growth and that that is the main gist of Christianity -- and that the "going to hell" stuff is meant for those who can�t be reached in any other way; that is, there is no eternal damnation�and therefore salvation is over-rated in terms of "what this is all about". I think it�s all about growing in love, not satisfying the demands of skin-deep rituals while leaving the rest of one�s heart untouched and unconverted.

If I can fully know, love and serve God without the Catholic Church then why be in it?

Well, from my standpoint you don�t have to be in it. I�m not. But I�m gaining much knowledge and wisdom from studying the rich tradition and thinkers of Catholicism. It is the world�s greatest repository for spiritual and moral thought. One has to come back here in some way, shape, or form if one cares a whit about spiritual growth. But as for the Church holding a monopoly on salvation, I don�t believe this to be true.

Wise words Brad, thanks.

From Brad: If I may speak frankly, I find Catholicism to be too smothering (Protestantism ain�t much better.). And I�m not sure how I could ever come to a profound and sincere understanding of Christianity (not that I do�I most decidedly don�t) if I had been brought up in Catholicism since childhood. . .

Wow, what'd you eat for lunch? Too smothering? What does that mean? And what are you saying in that second sentence? That Catholics don't have a "profound and sincere understanding of Christianity?" Compared to whom? I see you throw us a "bone" in a later post, so thanks.

Also: And frankly, I�m a fairly heretical Christian to begin with so you probably won�t want to take my advice. I seriously think that our Ultimate Concern is about spiritual growth and that that is the main gist of Christianity -- and that the "going to hell" stuff is meant for those who can�t be reached in any other way; that is, there is no eternal damnation�and therefore salvation is over-rated in terms of "what this is all about".

OTOH, you might be wrong about that, you know? That "going to hell" stuff is actually Christian (not just Catholic) doctrine, and is a possibility given the reality of free-will. Jesus spoke of this possibility; far be it from me to disagree with him on such a matter. I'd encourage others to think long and hard before doing so, either. Just because some have used this as a "scare tactic" doesn't mean it's all baloney.

And Darin: If there are circumstances that can lead to true salvation without Jesus then I would prefer that way. It seems that would make me stronger than just having it handed to me.

As some cartoon character puts it, "rots o' ruck." I can tell you that you're up against powers and principalities that will eat your lunch in a nano-second if they so desire. Human "strength" is nothing to them -- a mere flea to stomp on.

And: 4-Kundalini is a name for the Divine power within.

Don't quote me on that one. I'd be fine saying that about the Holy Spirit, but not kundalini energy.

Phil,

Isn't the soul a spark of the divine? Its innate like our hearts. I see kundalini and the holy spirit being different. Kundalini is the source of life within us, like the soul and it ascends up the spine. The Holy Spirit descends down on the head. Holy Spirit is infinite, kundalini is finite. Kundalini is divine, the Holy Spirit is God.

(Sometimes I don't realize the strange things I believe until I try to put them down in writing.)

Okay, let me try something else. The phenomena known as kundalini is the action of the soul quickening the body through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Wow, what'd you eat for lunch?

I guess I just know too many "recovering Catholics", Phil, and have heard their stories.

That Catholics don't have a "profound and sincere understanding of Christianity?"

No, it�s more the phenomenon of one approaching a subject as an outsider. It�s similar to the phenomenon of immigrants coming to America and appreciating this country with a depth much more profound than people who have lived here their whole lives. Catholicism seems to be to be very heavy in the way it impacts one�s life. If one grew up in it from day one then I think many things might not penetrate much deeper than habit.

I see you throw us a "bone" in a later post, so thanks.

You�re welcome!

OTOH, you might be wrong about that, you know?

Of course.

OTOH, you might be wrong about that, you know? That "going to hell" stuff is actually Christian (not just Catholic) doctrine, and is a possibility given the reality of free-will.

I've still got a few pages to go, but you make a good point in "Crucifixion" that Jesus had no problem deviating from cultural norms (the Jewish belief in Hell, Satan, and demons) and that, still, Jesus talks quite a bit about it. That's a good point.

Greetings Darin,

I'm not a member of womankind, and therefore will never understand their experience. I was not raised
in an al-Queda family, and will never relate to someone who was. I'm not an ancient Hebrew, Greek or Roman and will never see more than through a glass darkly what these cultures were like at the time of
the recording of the cannonical books.

A relationship with Jesus Christ can only be understood from the INSIDE, and a sinner may love God more than a cradle Christian who never has stayed. Four suggestions:

1) Read John's gospel

2) Read Luke's gospel

3) Read Mark's gospel

4) Read Mathew's gospel

Ask for Wisdom and opening of the Understanding.

Understand that this may cost you a great deal. You may suffer and even be put to death for taking this step, so count the cost and compare it to Christ's sacrifice. Meditate upon this...

(Climbing down from steetcorner soapbox and blushing just a tad bit...) <*))))><

gloriainexcelsisDeo.com

I guess I just know too many "recovering Catholics", Phil, and have heard their stories.

Maybe you should get to know more healthy Catholics?

Personally, I take exception to the term, "recovering Catholic" (generally uttered to a snickering crowd) as though Catholicism was something like alcoholism or a cultish ideology that one needed to "recover" from. One hardly ever finds such outside of dysfunctional families, and even then, it isn't the rule. I'm not denying that some silly and harmful things were done in the name of the Church, but that kind of distinction between unhealthy practice and what is actually taught isn't often made.

Maybe you should get to know more healthy Catholics?

Actually, I do!

Personally, I take exception to the term, "recovering Catholic" (generally uttered to a snickering crowd) as though Catholicism was something like alcoholism or a cultish ideology that one needed to "recover" from.

The honest truth, Phil, is that I've got a sweet, dear, gentle sister-in-law who is still brought to tears when she recounts the shaming and physically harsh treatment she received from nuns at the school she went to as a child. I have nothing against nuns. I have nothing against priests. I think both are extremely worthy vocations. Perhaps I shouldn't even be here talking about this stuff since I�m not a Catholic and have no plans of becoming one. But that doesn't mean I hold a grudge against the Church. Although I think there are inherent institutional issues and ideas within the Church that are partially to blame for doing harm, I also recognize that people are imperfect. In any institution of such age and scope, it is not always fair to extrapolate from a single incident to a whole. People can do rotten things quite on their own. But on the other hand, to be honest, I'm in no rush to become a Catholic because of, unfortunately, the all too many "recovering Catholic" stories that I have heard.

And I quite agree that "recover Catholic" is also a term unfairly used by those who wish to bash the Catholic Church. We often, of course, bash things we are afraid of or don't understand. We also may bash things because we feel drawn to them. It is our way of keeping that distance, of avoiding perhaps needed change and needed commitments. And we also bash competitors apparently. You would probably not be surprised to hear of the relatively open contempt for Catholics that comes even from otherwise devout Protestants (particularly ministers). Physician heal thyself!

I don't share that contempt. But I do share a sadness that people (and institutions) can get off track at times.

OK, Brad, I hear you.

You also wrote: Catholicism seems to be to be very heavy in the way it impacts one�s life. If one grew up in it from day one then I think many things might not penetrate much deeper than habit.

What do you mean by "heavy"? I grew up Catholic, had some unhappy, screaming nuns, realized as a little boy that they were different from happy nuns because they had problems, and had my life impacted by Catholicism from the get-go. As an adult, I had some things to unlearn, re-learn, etc. How is this different from what goes on in any other kind of formation -- religious or cultural? And why do you think it is somehow intrinsically oriented to the development of some kind of superficial "habit?" I'm just not tracking with these negative, sweeping generalizations.

Darin, have you checked out the forum on kundalini on this board? I think we address a lot of the kinds of questions you're raising, here. Do you have this experience yourself?

Kundalini is the source of life within us, like the soul and it ascends up the spine. The Holy Spirit descends down on the head. Holy Spirit is infinite, kundalini is finite. Kundalini is divine, the Holy Spirit is God.

We'd have to clear up a lot of semantics to be on the same page, here. E.g., the divine refers to God, in my understanding, so contrasting kundalini as divine and the Holy Spirit as God doesn't work. Also, to speak of the soul as ascending up the spine isn't anything I'd say, but that would depend on what one means by soul.

Okay, let me try something else. The phenomena known as kundalini is the action of the soul quickening the body through the power of the Holy Spirit.

No necessarily through the power of the Holy Spirit, but otherwise I can go along with that. You're using the term soul differently than above, it seems.

I grew up in a missionary Catholic church. The priests and nuns were loving and very intellegent. I hear about others having bad experiences but I never hear about people like me. Therefore-

OPEN LETTER TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Thank you for being there at every point in my life no matter how dumb I was being.

Thank you for that time when I was in a moment of weakness and going to do something very, very stupid but I somehow ended up at a Catholic adoration chapel instead. I didn't even know they existed but I guess I just saw the light on at the church and went in.

Thank you for that time during the first Gulf War where I found a priest in the middle of nowhere after I witnessed that thing that tore my soul apart. He put my soul back together and then just as mysteriously disappeared.

Thank you most of all for teaching me that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. You hold the true faith in your teaching and the real presence in the Eucharist and give them to me freely at mass and for this I will be eternally grateful.

Your devoted son,
Darin Hamel

Phil,
I got turned on to this site because of a link by the Kundalini_Support site. I read the nine pages of thread you have on kundalini and Holy Spirit being different.

How about this? God is at the center of our beings. That doesn't make us Gods because we are not at the center of God being. In the same way I think the kundalini is divine but not God.

I am most likely choosing words very poorly. I have a book about catholic mysticism before the Detroit curio right now. Its not theologically careful in its wording they say. Probably what I am doing here too.

Phil,
I am not very educated. I am Joe six pack, not the sharpest tool in the shed. I am not dumb either.

I have studied mysticism more from a survival perspective than devotional. Going to priests telling them I was having out of body experiences was fruitless. So for years I have studied and kept notes.

I try to simplify everything and sometimes I oversimplify and then it becomes wrong. It happens, go ahead and keep my theories honest. Thats why I am here.

You're doing great, Darin, and I can go along with what you've proposed in your three posts above just fine. Saying that God is at the center of our being (and every being) is fine, and it doesn't mean we're God, as you've noted. So we wouldn't say that we're divine, either, even noting that God lives within us.

Maybe you can pick up a few things here to sharpen some of what seems to be a sound intuitive grasp you have of things. Clarifying semantics and articulating things as clearly and precisely as possible will help you convey your understanding more clearly. That can take some time, but it's worth the work.

"God is at the center of our beings. That doesn't make us Gods because we are not at the center of God being."

Maybe you ought to look around in your toolshed again. That's not only sound theology, but said in a way that helps me ease into Presence.

Thanks W.C.

I think I read that in the Cloud of Unknowing.