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MM, I see you've started up a number of new threads on saints, books and authors. There's no end to the number of good people and books that could be listed, here, so let's hold off on creating any more unless there's an interest in discussing some of them. Also, it also might be better to lump some of them together -- e.g., women saints. What say ye? | |||
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Phil, I can scarcely contain my excitement at the times we live in. This is the greatest thing since Guttenberg!  Most of these texts weren't even available in English until recently. Now they are on the internet and in the public domain. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross were translated in the late 1950s, about the time Kabbalah was becoming known. More recently, the ancient Toltec secrets have been revealed along with Sufi mystery schools like the enneagram, yoga practices and the like. The Philokalia, all the mysteries of the Orthodox church, have recently been translated and made available in affordable paperback. There are few barriers to knowledge today. I said to myself, "where have they been hiding all this?" Perhaps a few of those timid yet adventurous souls who dare not post in here may chance to browse through some of these texts and catch the mystic fever and the meditation flu.  I guess we could start them out with lectio divina, the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount... Out of hundreds of millions of spiritual experiments, we have a few dozen who are the creme de la creme, the successful outcomes. Surely their wisdom is useful in times like these. caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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I love your enthusiasm for knowledge, MM. However, one of the benefits of a more structured approach (say, one thread about saints in general) is that then the message that saints are important isn't diluted. Having what may end up to be nine or ten empty threads might not be doing these people the justice they deserve. Sometimes less is more. | ||||
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You have gone to a lot of trouble and effort, MM, to point us to some very good information on various people. I find that to be highly useful. However, I have to admit that I would find your opinions on these gals and chaps equally valuable, if not more sot. That is because it was your passion in the first place that brought these topics to our attention. You needn�t do my thinking but I would love nothing more than to hear you give me some of the details of their lives in your own words and what you might have learned from them. | ||||
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Thank you, Brad, I'm wondering what to begin with, since just as marijuana might be the "gateway drug" to the really hard stuff, (a poor analogy I admit) there must be a gateway into mysticism in the Christian tradition. I feel fortunate to live in Thomas Keating's time, and near to Thomas Merton's time, since they have been the gateway to higher consciousness for many. It's sort of the Three Musketeers of the Centering Prayer movement, Basil Pennington, Keating and William Menninger. Menninger provides an excellent "gateway" book, "Bringing the Imitation of Christ into the 21st Century." Thomas a'Kempis has been a gateway for many and has been recommended by many, many men of the cloth as well as laypersons. Another, more intellectual "gateway" for many in the last century is "Mysticism" by Evelyn Underhill. Francis de Sales directed the Introduction to the Devout Life to the average person who was making a living and raising a family or whatever. He's not a mystic, but a first-rate spiritual director and not hopefully too far from the comfort zone. Francis of Assisi is perhaps the world's best known and loved mystic, and biographies abound. What seems to strike your fancy? caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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I'm wondering what to begin with, since just as marijuana might be the "gateway drug" to the really hard stuff, (a poor analogy I admit) there must be a gateway into mysticism in the Christian tradition. I feel fortunate to live in Thomas Keating's time, and near to Thomas Merton's time, since they have been the gateway to higher consciousness for many. Personally, I might start with a definition of �higher consciousness�. Many of us have come to know it to mean little more than wearing an affectation of �holier than thou� or being somehow �tuned into realities� which often means little more than tuning out common sense and sound reasoning. I seriously doubt this applies to any of the people you mentioned and I don�t mean to suggest that it does. For the record, I do believe in higher state of awareness and higher states of compassion. These might even come from higher states of consciousness. But so that we don�t damn them with faint praise or trivialize the true meaning of �higher consciousness�, this is where I might start when talking about saints. What seems to strike your fancy? I do have a real interest and affection for St. Francis of Assisi, what little I know of his life. His story seems so unaffected and genuine. He seems to show so clearly how one can chart a unique and authentic course in a literal storm of reasons and temptations not to do so. And he seems to pull it off with a minimum of disruption and hurt feelings even while painting quite a contrast with many of the beliefs and practices of the day. That, I think, shows the quality and sincerity of his motivations. | ||||
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Based on my own experience I would say that there is a false bliss. a fool's gold or phoney paradise where everything is all lovey-dovey until some harsh new reality jumps up and smacks one it the face. That's one of the dangers to be acknowledged, and the need to reality-check from time to time with others. I seem to travel in and out of illusion all in the same day sometimes. There is a movie about Francis' early life called Brother Sun, Sister Moon. It's from the early 70's and Donovan sings the soundtrack. You might drive to Blockbuster in the VW microbus. Maybe a used copy from e-bay? Maybe you know an old hippy who can tape it for you.http://www.cin.org/saints/francisgallico.html He was 100% into the deal, so he had outstanding results. A complete "fool for Christ," which we can't all be of course, but a great example and the founder of the largest order of the RCC. He may have started out as a liberal, but I have seen some of his later writings and they would make Jerry Falwell blush. -------------------------------------------------- Here is another idea, and you could read this in a couple of hours and put it to work in the daily grind. It's very Zen-like. http://www.ccel.org/l/lawrence/practice/htm/i.htm caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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MM, I was considering signing up to Blockbuster�s online service, particularly since they just recently lowered the cost to $15.00 a month. I see they have Brother Sun, Sister Moon so now might be a good time to sign up. He may have started out as a liberal, but I have seen some of his later writings and they would make Jerry Falwell blush. LOL, well at least you see the difference. That�s heads and tails above those who insist either that the Saints are all inherently liberal or beyond such labels. I might indeed put them beyond such labels but I�ll never concede the former.  And that, I dare say, is what made him so special. People these days will don a robe (or a university gown or tie-dyed shirt) at the drop of a hat and be prepared to denounce the rest of us as being phony. Francis definitely got it. I might even go far as to say that in this day an age if one wished to emulate Francis they might consider putting on a respectable business suit and shunning the mores and practices of the so-called guardians of social justice, the left. But this is only my interpretation and is probably no doubt harsher and un-Francis-like than it needs to be. Sainthood is still a ways off. | ||||
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Yes, I've seen Br. Sun . . . several times; it's wonderful. Meanwhile, we're living more Franciscanish in Wichita tonight, with a serious ice storm underway, power out, and a few rooms being warmed by an old electric heater. The sound of tree limbs breaking outside is like fireworks. The trees are aglaze with at least a half-inch of ice, not to mention icicles. Surreal! I'm on a phone connection and my laptop. Not much energy in my battery to spare . . . | ||||
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Keep us informed of your internal body temperature so that we may call help for you should the need arise. That sounds pretty rough, but at the same time it can be a fun break from the routine and, oh, the beauty of that ice. I can only image. (Perhaps some photos will take this problem away.) | ||||
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Phil, I'm thinking of psalms and hymns about God bringing us safely through the storms of life, but I don't want to get too corny. Enjoy the adventure!Brad, here are some radical venture capitalists for God- http://www.fgbmfi.org/ and they do things like this - http://www.feedthehungryfoundation.com/sitehome/ Phil, what would be the Catholic businessman's group? I have a freind in Knights of Columbus, and they do good works, as do the Shriners and others. Five kids came out in the snow today from this organization- http://www.campuscrusadeforchrist.com/ http://www.ccci.org/ http://www.ccci.org/wij/index.html There is an old building about five blocks from here which used to be a Yeshiva for training rabbis. Campus Crusade is renting the space. The kids gave me a box of food and we talked about the spiritual needs of the neighborhood and we had some fellowship. They told me about the four spiritual laws. 1) God loves you and created you to know him personally. He has a wonderful plan for your life. 2) People are sinful and separated from God, so we cannot know him personally or experience his love and plan. 3) Jesus Christ is God's only provision for our sin. Through him alone we can know God personally and experience God's love and plan. 4) We must individually recieve Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord; then we can know God personally and experience his love and plan. ------------------------------------------------- Post Vatican II would nuance those four points a tad bit, but essentially the evangel in a nutshell. Whatever happened to those five kids to make them stand in zero degrees to talk to strangers about God? I don't know for sure, but it might be what happened to Francis. They are showing a movie at the old Yeshiva: http://www.jesusfilm.org/ I promised to stop over and see what they are up to. caritas, mm <*))))))>< | ||||
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Learned something new today. Francis is the official patron saint of the Archdiocese where I reside. Another controversy around Francis is this prayer: http://www.transformationstati...._Francis_Prayer.htm Page 99 of the 12x12 (Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions) by Bill W., cofounder of A.A. It seems that Francis did not write the prayer, but soldiers carried it into battle during WW1. Bill W. was a veteran of that conflict, and suggested it as an aid to meditation for recovering people. http://www.wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm A Sufi conspiracy? ? ? The plot thickens... | ||||
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Whoever wrote it, that's a great prayer, MM. The kids gave me a box of food and we talked about the spiritual needs of the neighborhood and we had some fellowship�Whatever happened to those five kids to make them stand in zero degrees to talk to strangers about God? I don't know. I'm going to assume only the best of motives and reasons. But nowadays we might better call something like that EXTREME EVANGELIZING. It fits in better with our culture and makes it more understandable and accessible. Instead of five kids swallowing slugs while skateboarding on broken glass we have these kids facing some pretty extreme weather in order to spread the Gospel. Now THAT'S taking lemons and making lemonade. | ||||
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It�s a small world, brother MM. Right now I�m doing a small piece of art (a magnet) for the St. Francis Medical Clinic which is part of the "Franciscan Medical Group". This one is in Federal Way, WA. I assume we�re talking about the same St. Francis. And I�m doing this while sitting in front of my computer in a remodeled Lutheran Church. I live life so dangerously close to the edge. Oh, and you can be sure I charge a nominal price. | ||||
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I just had to chuckle. I was reading the reviews of Brother Sun, Sister Moon over at Amazon.com and ran into this:
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Listening to this audiobook right now... http://store.yahoo.com/soundstruestore/bodom.html http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi.../102-6454607-5406510 | ||||
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I just had to chuckle. Yes, I did indeed have to chuckle, even if it was the kind of chuckle that might accompany whistling past the graveyard. There is no life in absolute cynicism (or liberalism, communism, atheism or skepticism). All these things are useful tools however. But they are sharp, unforgiving tools that cut quite nicely so that you can see what�s inside, but they destroy at the same time whatever it is they�re examining. If we didn�t have a real St. Francis we�d have to invent him. Luckily he was real. Luckily we know enough about him to still garner some lessons. If I child of mine emulated either St. Francis or Dick Cheney I would be proud (and I�d be torn as to say which one I would be prouder of). | ||||
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What tends to get lost sometimes in all of the saint making is the fact that they were real people. Perhaps running off to monastic vocations was an attempt to avoid hang ups like fear if intimacy and starting families. Women in those days who married would often become baby factories and the men worked from sun to sun just to feed them. Francis is not known for the miracles he performed or his psychic abilities or his influence with spiritual or secular leaders, but rather for the change which occured within him, and his turning from the world to seek a higher value. Many of us are called to the tune of a different drummer, but few have what it takes to follow. caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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What tends to get lost sometimes in all of the saint making is the fact that they were real people. Yes. You�re right. I did a little more reading about St. Francis last night. He sort of filled my head even afterward. It was I.D. of the saintly kind, I guess. Perhaps running off to monastic vocations was an attempt to avoid hang ups like fear if intimacy and starting families. P That seems a reasonable explanation in this day and age. And certainly such problems existed back then.. But I�m not buying that solution (and neither do I think you do). I don't buy the whole Soviet Communist line that those who don�t like Soviet-style Communism must be crazy and therefore they must be sent to "rehabilitation" camps to fix their brains. No, that�s the worse of the beast. Nor is one particularly enlightened or knowledgeable (although they might be daring) for poking a stick at the establishment. That proves nothing. It could prove that the establishment has some imperfections, which would not be particularly surprising, but it�s just as likely to prove that a person has some real maturity and growth issues. It�s easy to blame one�s shortcoming on a faceless institution or on social practices that are demanding (particularly if they are demanding something quite reasonable such as honest, hard work and reasonably clean and kind living). Now, having said all that, and assuming there are people sophisticated enough to escape the trap of easy nihilism (and surely there are), one of the bravest things a person can do is to chart one�s own authentic course and/or poke a stick at hypocrisy. One of the healthiest and sanest things a person can do is to go against the flow if that flow threatens to drown one. Francis did not seem to be a rebel without a cause. Neither did he seem to be a trite and self-conscious non-conformist. Those types are a dime a dozen (nearly as common as the conformists which makes me suspect that they are also conformists and their skin-deep nonconformity is simply a coping mechanism). No, Francis seemed to be doing his own thing and wasn�t just thumbing his nose at civilizations. He was deepening and enriching civilization by showing alternatives and by painting apt contrasts with the way things were. And most of all, he seemed to love life and love his God and all thing that He supposedly created. Why saints should be the exception rather than the rule in a benevolent God-based universe is a mystery to me. | ||||
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"Every cop is a criminal, and all the sinners saints" - Mick Jagger "To thine own self be true, and thus thou canst be false to any man" - Leartes soliliquy from Hamlet "The fool who persists in his folly shall become wise." - another famous guy Exhibit "A" : Fleet Maull, who heads up Prison Dharma Fellowhip, a nonconformist who did 14 years hard time for drug smuggling. Exhibit "B" : Charles Colson of Prison Fellowship, a conformist who sold out to power in the establishment to such an extent that as chief counsel for Richard Nixon, he told some little white lies that got him disbarred and sent to prison. Both sinners, both saints, they found a way to be true to themselves and salvage what became of their pursuit of folly. A rebel who became a Buddhist teacher and a crooked conformist who became a Christian preacher. "Many people who climb the ladder of success find out that is was leaning up against the wrong wall" -Thomas Keating Spiritual life can become another ego trip, as Chogyam Trungpa reminds of Spiritual Materialism. Big obstacle in American spiritualty since we like celebrity gurus and big organizations. Everyone must become their own guru. Perhaps the age of gurus is coming to a close. Sainthood may be becoming more common. Like the four minute mile, once a psychological barrier is broken, alot of people begin to do it. caritas, mm <*)))))>< | ||||
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Yes, your theme of redemption is noted, MM, and perhaps just as importantly your theme of imperfection reflection. Many of us feel the overriding need to be perfect or flawless. We think our battery levels, so to speak, are not brimming or even full of the right kind of juice to begin with. To just be average we need to be damn near perfect to make up for our deep flaws. Thus our reverence for saints should be tempered by the fact that we (you and me) are much more likely to be of the Maull or Colson variety. We�re often going to find the good in us only when it is made to stand out by being starkly contrasted with our bad. Nothing quite like a prison cell gives one the type of feedback they need in order to show that some serious rethinking of one�s life is in order. But most of us aren�t so "lucky". We skip merrily along down the road to hell and fail to notice the slow change of landscape, from roses to poison ivy lining the road. We�re walking knee-deep in excrement before we know it and imagining Ann Coulter�s grandmother in a thong. Thus there are two lessons here that intersect in the story of the saints and the Watergate sinners. First, don�t listen to anything Haldeman has to say. Wait, there are three lessons that come from this story. The other two are don�t think you have to be a saint in order to be good. In fact, trying to do so could be a sign of EGO or some other malady. Just appreciate those rare St. Francises when they come along and emulate what you reasonably can. And second, it sure seems like Christianity teaches that no one is so far gone that they can�t shake it all off and start anew�.and that�s even, mind you, if they�ve got it all down on tape. | ||||
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By the way, MM, I'm about halfway through "Reluctant Saint" by Donald Spoto. I highly recommend this book. Granted, I'm more than a little na�ve when it comes to this stuff, but this guy doesn't seem to have any particular axe to grind. He neither (at least in my opinion) unnecessarily mythologizes Francis nor does he do any kind of postmodern hatchet job on him where faults are wantonly magnified lest anyone appear larger than life. He really seems to put his life in the context of the times and I certainly think he leans toward the "conservative" side of things when it comes to what stories he attributes to Francis. So far he is weaving an intriguing story with a lot of interesting background information. Overall, I like this guy's approach to the whole subject. Unlike practically everyone else who has embellished, used, and otherwise built onto Francis for their own purposes, Spoto shows how getting down to the real, imperfect, often shockingly human Francis makes his life and acts all the more glorious and noteworthy. To mythologize Francis is to do him a great injustice and I think to miss the point of his life and works. And because Francis seems entirely real and accessible, one is left with the distinct feeling and hope that one could indeed follow in his footsteps in some respects. He's not an "all or nothing" saint, as far as I can tell. By that I mean, it doesn't appear that one day he was hit with a "happy" stick from the Lord and then become a perfect human being. His conversion was a long process and he made lots of mistakes, but he kept at it. His life isn't something so awe-inspiring and unapproachable that you simply stick him on the shelf and look at him. There's real stuff here this is absolutely meant to be emulated � and can be. | ||||
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Monseur Nelson, I know that you like these type of quizzes. What is your type, responde si vous plait. http://www.mv.com/users/anc/fanfic/quiz.html | ||||
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Eponine. Oh dear. | ||||
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ROTFLMAO http://tribolum.com/oldpage/Eponine.htm http://www.classtech2000.com/A...noi/les/lesindex.htm That might explain why you like Ann Coulter. She's perhaps your Marius. Now if Jesus replaces Ann Coulter someday, we might be talking about the bridal mysticism of the Victorines or midieval and renaissance figures like John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila. http://www.nd.edu/Departments/...tain/etext/hop35.htm So glad you are not a Javert. Too many conservatives are of his ilk, IMO  Will get back to you on this... caritas, mm <*))))>< | ||||
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