Encouraged by Phil, I start a new discussion. Although being married changed significantly my spiritual life (for the better, but also into a new direction), I've never imagined that the birth of my daughter will turn everything upside down. I'm very happy that she exists and I'd never go back, but I must admit that my spiritual life changed completely. I mean here the first months/years of raising a child, because it requires a lot of time, attention, and energy, since the baby is not able to be much by itself. The money is also necessary, which for me as a man means more stress about providing for my family (more responsibility).

I think the worst thing for me is exhaustion. I really don't have much time to rest or do anything just for my pleasure (which is relaxing for me and "charges my batteries"), and the first months after she was born were really hard. It is really either being with the baby or working, or to run errands. Because I'm finishing my post-doctoral dissertation, I needed as much time as I could find to work on it. I found impossible not only to attend to mass daily, but to do that on any day apart from Sunday. I couldn't find time to pray for a longer time in silence and, honestly speaking, my entire "prayer space", that I carefully arranged before, now was gone, when we had to prepare our home for the baby. Of course, no time for spiritual reading or writing a journal, or visiting shalomplace.org. On top of that, since few months before my daughter was born I entered a state of aridity, which made it really hard to pray at all.

Nevertheless, I tried to come up with some things. Of course, I offered all the time I was with the baby or helping my wife, or working, to God as an expression of my love to Him. The problem was and is that it does not feel that way. I mean, while I'm doing my daily duties I don't feel that they are anything special, so there is only a naked intention to do it for God. But, at times, it was the only thing that kept me connected to God at all.

Another thing is that I learnt to pray shortly in various situations. Waiting in the line in a shop, waking up in the middle of the night to prepare milk for the baby, bathing her, driving my car, sitting for five minutes in a chair etc. The prayer was mostly verbal, just speaking to God in my mind, reconnecting with Him. Sometimes it was just repeating a phrase from the Scripture that came to my mind or something like that. But, usually, my mind was occupied by a lot of thoughts about work, about things to do, not about God...

When I think of it I feel it is a good experience, especially for me, keeping my feet on the ground. Surely, it is something God intended for me. But this sort of life relentlessly unveils all the weaknesses and sinful habits that otherwise might be comfortably hidden... Which is also good, I think. Now, that my daughter is 13 months old I can slowly find more time for formal spiritual practice, but probably in two years the story will repeat itself with another baby...

I suppose that this is also my personal experience and that others might go through it differently. It happened to me after 9 years of pretty intense life of meditation and prayer, going for retreats, having plenty of time for spiritual practice. Maybe the contrast made the transition so hard. I'm curious how you managed when your kids were little? Any clever ways to be in touch with God, while diapers, milk, and rubber ducks are all your sleepless reality?

I very much relate to your sharing, Mt.. Our three children are now all grown up (and paid for! ) and we are helping raise our grandchildren, though that is nowhere near as much of a responsibility as raising our own.

The most difficult (and delightful) time was when the kids were small, for, as you noted, it takes lots of time and energy to care for them. For me, this was an ongoing call to sacrifice -- to give of myself in ways that did not come naturally or easily. It was also good for me to do so, however, as such sacrifice seems to open one to agape in ways that other relationships do not. I think parenting comes closer to imaging God's love than anything else, which is not to diminish my regard for ministries that serve the poor, work for justice, etc. To be "on call" day and night for months and years through sleepless nights, growing pains, illnesses, struggles with peers, and the basic socialization process that kids need to learn: that's just plain old hard work! But it's good and holy work, and it does "grow" the parents along with their children.

I was a contemplative type when we married, but there was no huge adjustment for married life. Taking prayer time after the kids were born meant that my wife would have to be on call during those times, so I usually just got up early and took my "quiet time" so I could be ready to serve about the time she woke up (at which point she could have some prayer time). If the kids woke up during my prayer time, she was on call, knowing that I'd be in shortly. So it was teamwork for us, and it also taught our children that prayer was, for us, an essential part of life.

As you noted, the tiredness is ever-present. One thing I discovered was that sleep given up for prayer was much less a consequence to me than prayer given up for sleep. A little time for stretching and a good cup of strong coffee has always been part of my morning routine as well, and that helped with alertness.

Contemplative spirituality and family life are not incompatible, but they do not come easily, either. I thrive on simplicity and silence; family life is complicated and often noisy. The only way to go is to live through it all, one day at a time, enjoying the many special moments along the way. Eventually, kids grow up and move out, which is a good thing. That can also usher in a special time in married life, assuming the marriage relationship has been nurtured through the years.

Mt, though childless myself, I can relate to the aridity you mentioned in your post, and also the (often distressing) self revelations that these relentless outward circumstances bring about. Perhaps we can pray for one another. I feel mine are mostly bumbling attempts at prayer but one never knows when a prayer door might open.

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
... keeping my feet on the ground. Surely, it is something God intended for me. But this sort of life relentlessly unveils all the weaknesses and sinful habits that otherwise might be comfortably hidden... Which is also good, I think. ..

I can very much relate to everything you've written here, Mt. Thanks for starting this discussion.

Sleeplessness and exhaustion are the hardest parts, for sure. Well maybe almost tied with that is the NOISE. I love and need silence and alone-ness. Many times, it felt to me that God was playing such a strange trick on me. A strange juxtaposition between having moments of such soaring love and beauty in seeing those little faces to moments of throbbing, agonizing mental, emotional, and physical misery! It’s very humbling to admit how much one is swept away by moments of hating one’s own children.

I was eager to get away from my children, and then a few hours later, my body ached to be near them. There was one grief-stricken moment in particular that I recall one morning when I was awakened by my son’s crying. I realized: I will never, ever be able to enjoy a life that is centered exclusively on ME again!! Kids do take over every room in your house, your car, even your mind, it seems. You can never be ‘care-free’ again as you once were.

As an strong introvert, I resented the need to become more extroverted for my children. Unlike Phil and Mt, I wasn’t guarding prayer time as such because I wasn’t into that when my boys were younger. I was guarding solitude and silence, which I craved, a sort of proto-contemplative self. But I knew I had to give those things up to a large extent in order to provide my children with opportunities to develop social skills and friendships, etc. So I did stuff I really didn’t want to do, not really. I had two sons and the boy-energy drove me CRAZY! I'd think, a few daughters to sit and color with would be nice. We could braid each other's hair, try on cute dresses, tea parties. When my oldest son was sick, I used to feel a strong pang of guilt because I simply liked him more for those few days. When he was sick, he was quiet. And he finally, finally, finally S-T-O-P-P-E-D ...M -O-O-O-O-V-ing. Finally.

But that in itself is a lesson is surrendering to God’s Will. God gave me what I needed, not what I thought I wanted.

Phil and Mt., you both shared about the lessons in sacrificial love that one passes through in parenthood. No other relationship makes such impossible demands of so much selfless love for such an extended period of time.

Many parents have shared with me: "I never knew what an angry person I could be until I had children" or "I knew I was capable of becoming angry, but until I had children, I never knew HOW angry I could be!" That's so true. We don't know how deeply broken, fragile, and selfish we are until children come along. That kind of painful self-discovery goes on well beyond the infancy years.

Parenthood unites us with the human family in a way that no other relationship can. We grow in love and compassion in ways that nothing else achieves. And the rewards this love relationship brings are beyond words, beyond measure. It's an incredible blessing to partner with God to create and raise children. Seeing their little bodies and personalities grow is amazing, humbling, awe-inspiring.

As you know, we don't stall our spiritual development in raising children (unless we flat-out turn away from God of course). And God is perfectly capable of breaking through our most miserable, sleepless moments to give us contemplative graces and consolations if He wants.

Quote by Shasha "As you know, we don't stall our spiritual development in raising children (unless we flat-out turn away from God of course). And God is perfectly capable of breaking through our most miserable, sleepless moments to give us contemplative graces and consolations if He wants."

To all, at age 85 I can say thanks for the memories.I am now enjoying great grandchildren, relating to all you have shared and smiling. It also reminds me of something I learned from JB who posts on these forums: "What gets in the way IS the way."

i lost my desktop to an isaac power surge

i was totally unplugged before & during the storm but the juice came on a few days later then went off again due to substation flooding & notwithstanding a surge protector ... zap! to my desktop, home theater soundbar & a flourescent light fixture

ergo, all lower case here cause i have no facility w/phone keypads & my contributions will be limited til santa passes

but, i was thinking of a related topic recently so will merge those musings on this thread (feel free to prune this elsewhere)


paul tillich once lamented how the word 'faith' had become so widely misunderstood (giving us the concept of ultimate concern) ... the word 'contemplative' has been similarly misunderstood, so i'm ready to abandon it & substitute 'eucharistic living' in its place

it's unfortunate that 'contemplative' is so often narrowly conceived as merely a prayer style or even more often misconceived as a personality type

contemplation is not distinguished from action such that it could complement or supplement it but instead describes how one orients toward and thus participates in reality, so it entails much more than a set of ascetic disciplines, much more than one's periods of sitting

contemplative, in my view, refers to eucharistic living, which incorporates all prayer forms, enjoys expression in all personality types & is embodied by all spiritualitues

as such, transcending (embracing all) personalties & spiritualities, a contemplative or eucharistic participation proceeds 

1) with an abiding awareness (anamnesis or not forgetting or always remembering) 

2)  in abiding thanksgiving (all is gift, hence, with deep gratitude & great humility)

3) in an abiding covenant relationship (in a context of loving promises & hope-filled plans) 

4) from an abiding source of sustenance & nurturance (a meal that imparts life in the fullest sense)

5) with an abiding intimate presence of God realized pervasively in manifold & multiform unitive ways 

thus conceived as abiding eucharistic participation, how might various vocational commitments  affect contemplative experiences?

because vocational commitments are formative & transformative & thus typically mature us as persons, they often serve to more fully develop our weaker functions (jungian or myers-briggs),  so, our contemplative experiences should  both deepen and broaden, which is to say that they should become both more depthful (constantly abiding) and more richly textured (less context-specific, less compartmentalized,  more diverse vis a vis jungian functions, iow, essentially more abiding)

for example ...  here is where some personal sharing and storytelling could illustrate and amplify this model of comtemplative orientation as eucharistic living:

when i got married
when i was ordained
when i took final vows
when i became a parent
when i began my career as a 

so, more than one moment of prayer among others (contemplatio remains that, too), a cultivated contemplative stance or eucharistic outlook will more depthfully ground & more richly texture our engagements of lectio, oratio, meditatio, operatio, science, philosophy, culture, religion, family, work, play, REALITY (God, self, others, creation)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: johnboy.philothea,

because the contemplative stance can be realized by all temperaments & expressed through all jungian functions, the ascetic disciplines that foster this stance are accidental to what we might call an essential contemplation

the good news, then, is that we can develop alternative disciplines when thwarted on our chosen path

the bad news, though, is that the hardwiring of our temperaments neither changes rapidly nor pervasively ... while we do grow our weaker functions thru a lifetime of psychological individuation, for most these changes are incremental & modest ... there is no indication that God's plan for humanity is that we all fully develop all jungian functions ... there is every indication that these temperament differences are, instead, gifts, whereby we enjoy diversity & celebrate it

accordingly, when vocational commitments challenge us temperamentally, not only in our prayer lives but in all aspects of living that can be very sensitive to temperament differences, we need to 
communicate our needs to family, friends & coworkers who will properly interpret them & compassionately advocate our legitimate concerns, helping us come up with creative strategies, some which will allow us to indulge our temperamental needs, some which will challenge us to grow our temperaments in new directions

see prior discussions here regarding type-falsification, which can present very real dangers

sorry i'm not led to share much re concrete strategies presently but i thought providing a background context might help some

i can briefly say that i traded lunch for daily mass & exploited my 2hrs of daily commuting time for prayer rather than other alternatives like mindless media, for example ... nothing saved my prayer life more than the gift of tongues

BlissInTheHeart,

I suppose I experienced something similar to what you describe or, if I might say, exactly something like that. As I wrote in my post, being a parent until recently has been for me a time of total aridity, by which I mean precisely the lack of the experience you describe (if we're both talking about the felt presence of God in the heart). When my wife was pregnant I was for several months in the state of union of love of some sort (Phil might remember a mail I wrote him, babbling how my life will never be the same again after that ). This state felt like it would never go away, but it eventually did, after it accomplished what it was intended to accomplish. When this grace was gone, I could vaguely remember what it was, but, as St. John of the Cross says, there is no spiritual memory of the past: the soul cannot reawaken a state that is not actualized in her right now. So I relate to what you write - being in a state of burning, sweet, consuming, painfully blissful love of God makes things easier... But, for recent couple of years, it comes and goes as He wishes. When its gone I cannot make it happen.

Johnboy,

I basically agree with what you wrote, but in my personal experience felt intimacy with God is very important. I did not have real faith before I was given contemplative graces. The contemplative graces and kundalini experiences gradually made me a Catholic that I am now. Even in the state of desolation I can experience my faith in various forms: intellectual, liturgical, social, scriptural etc. I never have doubts about God's love - I know that my changing diapers and breathing is for God, whether I'm conscious of it or not. I was simply complaining about the fact that I havent been feeling God's presence and I have experienced difficulty in prayer which is a part of desolation/dark night in general sense. In my case states of consolation and desolation tend to have extreme forms, which is sometimes hard. I'm longing for God to come back, and when he's back I wonder I could manage to live in such darkness. I guess it's a part of my personal way to God, perhaps my weakness as well.

Thanks for sharing. The ability to trade lunch for daily mass was exactly something I couldn't muster...

quote:

Originally posted by Mt: ... in my personal experience felt intimacy with God is very important. ...

What a generous personal sharing. I hope you are afforded a compassionate, listening presence to help you through this difficult time, some loving spiritual companioning or direction.

Early on the journey, felt consolations play a significant role in our spiritual formation, seems to be the general pattern. Growth in intimacy is quite the essence throughout the journey but we eventually realize that feelings are not essential. Intimacy remains important. The 'felt' part, not so much. But how can this be?

The spiritual literature explores all sorts of reasons for alternating consolations and desolations, sensible fervor and terrible aridity, some spiritual, some psychological, some due to virtue, some due to vice. Knowing that under the best of circumstances that our aridity may come from our drawing even more close to God in intimacy may be little consolation, itself, to the poor suffering soul, who must persevere, sometimes, for a very long time. Remain in some form of community and you'll be given spiritual bread sufficient for one day at a time even if the fires of first fervor don't reignite until the beatific vision.

It seems the tension between contemplative living and family life is most acute in those (like myself and some of you who've shared, I gather) for whom contemplative prayer itself seems to be something of a vocation. Here it is not so much a matter of praying to prep for a day of action, but praying as a means of service to humanity. I've had several such directees through the years, and it was quite a relief to them to accept that their prayer was itself a ministry, for they felt guilty about not doing more active ministry. Yet when one considers the kind of interconnectedness being shared on our discussions of nonduality, it follows that contemplative pray-ers are not only receiving infusions of divine life into their own souls, but are bringing the whole human race and, indeed, the whole cosmos with them. Iow, theosis is not a private affair, but has communal and cosmic implications.

For those blessed with contemplative prayer, and for whom contemplation is a mainstay in their spiritual lives, it seems to be as necessary to carve out times for prayer as it is to breathe, or to eat, etc. There is no need to encourage these souls to pray (as I have to do with most of my directees), as they'd sooner go without a breakfast or an hour of sleep as to cut corners on prayer.

One of my directees told me years ago: "What I do is pray and teach, and if one day I cannot teach, then I shall just pray and that will be fine with me." This is utter nonsense to most people, but for those blessed by God with contemplative graces, it's their heart's greatest desire. I might note that this woman raised four children, and raised them well. Same goes for Bernadette Roberts, who shares in her books how she was able to raise four children and find hours each day for prayer.

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
BlissInTheHeart,

I suppose I experienced something similar to what you describe or, if I might say, exactly something like that. As I wrote in my post, being a parent until recently has been for me a time of total aridity, by which I mean precisely the lack of the experience you describe (if we're both talking about the felt presence of God in the heart). When my wife was pregnant I was for several months in the state of union of love of some sort (Phil might remember a mail I wrote him, babbling how my life will never be the same again after that ). This state felt like it would never go away, but it eventually did, after it accomplished what it was intended to accomplish. When this grace was gone, I could vaguely remember what it was, but, as St. John of the Cross says, there is no spiritual memory of the past: the soul cannot reawaken a state that is not actualized in her right now. So I relate to what you write - being in a state of burning, sweet, consuming, painfully blissful love of God makes things easier... But, for recent couple of years, it comes and goes as He wishes. When its gone I cannot make it happen.

Johnboy,

I basically agree with what you wrote, but in my personal experience felt intimacy with God is very important. I did not have real faith before I was given contemplative graces. The contemplative graces and kundalini experiences gradually made me a Catholic that I am now. Even in the state of desolation I can experience my faith in various forms: intellectual, liturgical, social, scriptural etc. I never have doubts about God's love - I know that my changing diapers and breathing is for God, whether I'm conscious of it or not. I was simply complaining about the fact that I havent been feeling God's presence and I have experienced difficulty in prayer which is a part of desolation/dark night in general sense. In my case states of consolation and desolation tend to have extreme forms, which is sometimes hard. I'm longing for God to come back, and when he's back I wonder I could manage to live in such darkness. I guess it's a part of my personal way to God, perhaps my weakness as well.

Thanks for sharing. The ability to trade lunch for daily mass was exactly something I couldn't muster...

I definitely empathize with you, and am going through a similar period. When I don't create the time to pray on a regular basis, I carry around a dull painful feeling, something in the background of my mind at all times, trying to get my attention. It makes me feel a little bit crazy and sad, because I know "if I can just sit still for a little while," God is waiting there for me to connect with. I'm changing some things to create my regular time again, but in the meantime I retreat to vocal prayer while driving, and find time for silence where I can. But I also make sure to thank God for the pain, that keeps me always WANTING to pray, even though I don't always fulfill the desire.

Something I took away from St. Louie de Montfort's "True Devotion to Mary" years ago was the idea that Mary can "bind us" with "chains of love" for Christ, and ever since, I've prayed that I be kept (by "force" when necessary) bound up in desire for Christ, even when my inclination is to let the world get the better of me. So far it's worked, and my desire for prayer hasn't waned, even when I don't take the time to acknowledge it.

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
It seems the tension between contemplative living and family life is most acute in those (like myself and some of you who've shared, I gather) for whom contemplative prayer itself seems to be something of a vocation. Here it is not so much a matter of praying to prep for a day of action, but praying as a means of service to humanity. I've had several such directees through the years, and it was quite a relief to them to accept that their prayer was itself a ministry, for they felt guilty about not doing more active ministry. Yet when one considers the kind of interconnectedness being shared on our discussions of nonduality, it follows that contemplative pray-ers are not only receiving infusions of divine life into their own souls, but are bringing the whole human race and, indeed, the whole cosmos with them. Iow, theosis is not a private affair, but has communal and cosmic implications.

For those blessed with contemplative prayer, and for whom contemplation is a mainstay in their spiritual lives, it seems to be as necessary to carve out times for prayer as it is to breathe, or to eat, etc. There is no need to encourage these souls to pray (as I have to do with most of my directees), as they'd sooner go without a breakfast or an hour of sleep as to cut corners on prayer.

One of my directees told me years ago: "What I do is pray and teach, and if one day I cannot teach, then I shall just pray and that will be fine with me." This is utter nonsense to most people, but for those blessed by God with contemplative graces, it's their heart's greatest desire. I might note that this woman raised four children, and raised them well. Same goes for Bernadette Roberts, who shares in her books how she was able to raise four children and find hours each day for prayer.

The eremitic vocation aspires to realize many of the kingdom values you articulate here. To aspire to realize these same values in a life not lived as a hermit presents special challenges but no too few souls seem to find themselves living out apostolic commitments but with eremitic sensibilities? in a sort of blended vocation, which has both very special blessings & very challenging burdens. Vocations and spiritualities are often reflective of temperament preferences but life doesn't always afford us the ideal situation. Those of us who live in affluent, mobile societies take for granted how many choices we have vocationwise of which others could never even dream?

quote:

Originally posted by myfutureself:

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
BlissInTheHeart,

I suppose I experienced something similar to what you describe or, if I might say, exactly something like that. As I wrote in my post, being a parent until recently has been for me a time of total aridity, by which I mean precisely the lack of the experience you describe (if we're both talking about the felt presence of God in the heart). When my wife was pregnant I was for several months in the state of union of love of some sort (Phil might remember a mail I wrote him, babbling how my life will never be the same again after that ). This state felt like it would never go away, but it eventually did, after it accomplished what it was intended to accomplish. When this grace was gone, I could vaguely remember what it was, but, as St. John of the Cross says, there is no spiritual memory of the past: the soul cannot reawaken a state that is not actualized in her right now. So I relate to what you write - being in a state of burning, sweet, consuming, painfully blissful love of God makes things easier... But, for recent couple of years, it comes and goes as He wishes. When its gone I cannot make it happen.

Johnboy,

I basically agree with what you wrote, but in my personal experience felt intimacy with God is very important. I did not have real faith before I was given contemplative graces. The contemplative graces and kundalini experiences gradually made me a Catholic that I am now. Even in the state of desolation I can experience my faith in various forms: intellectual, liturgical, social, scriptural etc. I never have doubts about God's love - I know that my changing diapers and breathing is for God, whether I'm conscious of it or not. I was simply complaining about the fact that I havent been feeling God's presence and I have experienced difficulty in prayer which is a part of desolation/dark night in general sense. In my case states of consolation and desolation tend to have extreme forms, which is sometimes hard. I'm longing for God to come back, and when he's back I wonder I could manage to live in such darkness. I guess it's a part of my personal way to God, perhaps my weakness as well.

Thanks for sharing. The ability to trade lunch for daily mass was exactly something I couldn't muster...

I definitely empathize with you, and am going through a similar period. When I don't create the time to pray on a regular basis, I carry around a dull painful feeling, something in the background of my mind at all times, trying to get my attention. It makes me feel a little bit crazy and sad, because I know "if I can just sit still for a little while," God is waiting there for me to connect with. I'm changing some things to create my regular time again, but in the meantime I retreat to vocal prayer while driving, and find time for silence where I can. But I also make sure to thank God for the pain, that keeps me always WANTING to pray, even though I don't always fulfill the desire.

Something I took away from St. Louie de Montfort's "True Devotion to Mary" years ago was the idea that Mary can "bind us" with "chains of love" for Christ, and ever since, I've prayed that I be kept (by "force" when necessary) bound up in desire for Christ, even when my inclination is to let the world get the better of me. So far it's worked, and my desire for prayer hasn't waned, even when I don't take the time to acknowledge it.

Paul

well said! there is something about DESIRE & longing, in and of themselves, that, even in aridity, becomes a consolation, strange at first but which later becomes a familiar companion, almost a cherished affliction that keeps one's beloved in heart & mind even when out of sight, like a pebble in our shoe we call 'dare'

to the extent Merton sought to democratize contemplation, it seems to me that he was discussing how it is we grow in intimacy, as a matter of degree ... and there are many vocational paths & spiritualities that reflect different temperament preferences, all which can enjoy the highest degrees of intimacy, though in many different ways ... it is the contemplative stance in this democratized sense that i thus broadly equate with eucharistic living

but i appreciate that the contemplative approach has also been more narrowly conceived traditionally & in a manner that precisely reflects vocational and/or spiritual paths, not reflecting different degrees of intimacy but different types of intimacy, a different way of being present

as a vocational call, it can draw one irresistably!

the meaning of the contemplative life per Merton

This message has been edited. Last edited by: johnboy.philothea,

quote:

The eremitic vocation aspires to realize many of the kingdom values you articulate here. To aspire to realize these same values in a life not lived as a hermit presents special challenges but no too few souls seem to find themselves living out apostolic commitments but with eremitic sensibilities? in a sort of blended vocation, which has both very special blessings & very challenging burdens. Vocations and spiritualities are often reflective of temperament preferences but life doesn't always afford us the ideal situation. Those of us who live in affluent, mobile societies take for granted how many choices we have vocationwise of which others could never even dream?

Yes indeed, JB. But I would consider the eremitic vocation just one option open to contemplatives. Monasticism is another, of course. I would consider the eremetic or monastic vocations to be a special calling within the larger call to live as a contemplative.

What I mean by a "contemplative vocation" is that the rest of life must be organized to give priority to prayer. This entails much more than finding time for formal prayer, which is not so difficult (just get up earlier as Jesus did, and/or negotiate these times with your spouse). It also means choosing a compatible career, or means of earning money. Work and other activities are completely compatible with a contemplative vocation, as even monastic life gives evidence. These activities, as you noted, are opportunities for manifesting a eucharistic "real presence" in the trenches of life. The Dominican motto of "bringing to others the fruits of your contemplation" really speaks to me, and I guess it's no accident that I work now at a retreat center run by Dominicans. So I have an ideal situation, now, except that one has to accept that there are definitely financial disadvantages that come with this kind of work. Still, there is an awesome congruence between lifestyle, career, and prayer at this time in my life, and it has been so for many years, though not always.

I have had periods where I was (out of necessity) doing work that was highly incompatible with contemplative living. On one such occasion, I had to spend hours and hours each day in front of a computer doing graphic arts, designing web pages, and the like. I picked up some skills that have stood me well, but that kind of concentration was too constricting, and made it very difficult to do much more in prayer than to try to unwind. During the years when I did group therapy at an alcohol and drug abuse clinic, it would take me several hours each night to "detox" from the negative energy of the day. It was an exhausting time - - very difficult to come to rest in God. Knowing that God was present and loving was a good thing, but that kind of intellectual affirmation is no substitute to realizing this in the depths of one's being -- in one's bones, as it were.

Ironically, I can do hard, manual labor all day and not be diminished; in fact, my awareness becomes crystal clear in doing so. At the end of a day of hard labor, I can settle into a place of deep silence very quickly.

Raising children, as noted above, posed difficulties mostly because of their emotional demands, and because of the loss of sleep. That was the hardest part, but it was no detriment to prayer (except for the "nodding-off-a-lot" part). Children are also such a delight, and they helped to awaken in me my own child-like-ness as I got down to their level and played. I really miss that, though am enjoying it once again with grandkids.

So, to summarize, prayer itself can be considered a vocational calling for some, maybe many, and I don't know how correlated this is to temperament or any other factors. For those who are called to a contemplative life, priority must be given to prayer, and doing so in this culture is a major challenge.

Paul,
thank you for what you wrote. I can totally relate to that!

I also like the nice summary done by you, Phil: "emotional demands and the loss of sleep". That is exactly what is difficult, even though I struggle with the "physicality" of the time with my daughter. I was always an intellectual type and I always spent my free time on reading, writing or watching movies, only after my conversion I paid more attention to physical exercise, but I never had enthusiasm for it or for hard physical work. Being with a child means not only emotional, but also physical effort, which for some people is fun, but for me is sometimes a challenge and I feel all my muscles after a couple of hours in a playground.

I also noticed that my attitude to my work changed. Before my daughter, I didn't think much about my job. I thought it's "only to earn some money". But after she was born (and I blame the economy, but I think it's not only that) I'm much more tense about my career, I think about it more and I try to earn and save more money, which is also a spiritual difficulty at times. I can trust God, but I'm not that naive to think that God will give all the money I need without me taking care of it.

About contemplative vocation. Thanks, Phil, for your clarifications. I think for me it is more hard than I even dare to think to harmonize intimacy with God and intimacy with my family. I know all that theological stuff about how you express your love for God by loving others and how the family is an image of the Trinity, but for me relationship with God was always something just like a human loving relationship which has its own demands. I mean that, even though it may sound horrible to some, in my heart there is a space just for me and Jesus, when even the greatest love, for my wife or my daugher, cannot enter.

When I got married this feeling changed a bit, like God let me share our love with my wife, so it is not exclusive any more. But at times I still feel that God is "my soul's Beloved".

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Originally posted by Phil:

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The eremitic vocation aspires to realize many of the kingdom values you articulate here. To aspire to realize these same values in a life not lived as a hermit presents special challenges but no too few souls seem to find themselves living out apostolic commitments but with eremitic sensibilities? in a sort of blended vocation, which has both very special blessings & very challenging burdens. Vocations and spiritualities are often reflective of temperament preferences but life doesn't always afford us the ideal situation. Those of us who live in affluent, mobile societies take for granted how many choices we have vocationwise of which others could never even dream?

Yes indeed, JB. But I would consider the eremitic vocation just one option open to contemplatives. Monasticism is another, of course. I would consider the eremetic or monastic vocations to be a special calling within the larger call to live as a contemplative.

What I mean by a "contemplative vocation" is that the rest of life must be organized to give priority to prayer. This entails much more than finding time for formal prayer, which is not so difficult (just get up earlier as Jesus did, and/or negotiate these times with your spouse). It also means choosing a compatible career, or means of earning money. Work and other activities are completely compatible with a contemplative vocation, as even monastic life gives evidence. These activities, as you noted, are opportunities for manifesting a eucharistic "real presence" in the trenches of life. The Dominican motto of "bringing to others the fruits of your contemplation" really speaks to me, and I guess it's no accident that I work now at a retreat center run by Dominicans. So I have an ideal situation, now, except that one has to accept that there are definitely financial disadvantages that come with this kind of work. Still, there is an awesome congruence between lifestyle, career, and prayer at this time in my life, and it has been so for many years, though not always.

I have had periods where I was (out of necessity) doing work that was highly incompatible with contemplative living. On one such occasion, I had to spend hours and hours each day in front of a computer doing graphic arts, designing web pages, and the like. I picked up some skills that have stood me well, but that kind of concentration was too constricting, and made it very difficult to do much more in prayer than to try to unwind. During the years when I did group therapy at an alcohol and drug abuse clinic, it would take me several hours each night to "detox" from the negative energy of the day. It was an exhausting time - - very difficult to come to rest in God. Knowing that God was present and loving was a good thing, but that kind of intellectual affirmation is no substitute to realizing this in the depths of one's being -- in one's bones, as it were.

Ironically, I can do hard, manual labor all day and not be diminished; in fact, my awareness becomes crystal clear in doing so. At the end of a day of hard labor, I can settle into a place of deep silence very quickly.

Raising children, as noted above, posed difficulties mostly because of their emotional demands, and because of the loss of sleep. That was the hardest part, but it was no detriment to prayer (except for the "nodding-off-a-lot" part). Children are also such a delight, and they helped to awaken in me my own child-like-ness as I got down to their level and played. I really miss that, though am enjoying it once again with grandkids.

So, to summarize, prayer itself can be considered a vocational calling for some, maybe many, and I don't know how correlated this is to temperament or any other factors. For those who are called to a contemplative life, priority must be given to prayer, and doing so in this culture is a major challenge.

d'accord, i offerred the eremitic vocation as analogous not exhaustive, particularly affirming of the notion that, as a vocational calling, the contemplative life is esteemed and valued ... i refer folks to those paragraphs on the eremitic life in the catholic catechism

this democratization beyond forest cells & cloister walls is providential for our times ... it affirms that all prayer and vocations can be graced, mystical, from the same Origin, which is to acknowledge that distinctions such as super/natural and acquired/infused become irrelevant theologically, prayer experiences differing not in kind vis a vis Origin although still very much differing in degree, which is of signal importance in spiritual direction vis a vis discerning a directee's level of cooperation (even docility) to the Spirit & what prayer forms and ascetic disciplines are thus variously suitable

the three articles below elaborate on prayer forms available to modern contemplative aspirants & the latter part of the Merton article more precisely addresses strategies for the lay contemplative

as you well articulate, the contemplative approach has become much more broadly conceived ... i would add that, while distinctions between ordinary & extraordinary degrees of experience remain salient in spiritual direction settings, certain other classic distinctions are less defensible theologically, which is very important because it reinforces the notion that the invitation to contemplative practice is, indubitably, extended to all

still, i think we might properly distinguish between life's ubiquitous contemplative dimension, which all need to develop as part of their vocation and a contemplative vocation
per se ... in the same way that all are called to eucharistic participation but not all are ordained as eucharistic presiders, all are baptized as priests, prophets & kings but not all have a juridical sacerdotal ministry ... some contemplatives bear cosmic tensions in their being and midwife transformation --- not only their own, but --- for a creation groaning in the great act of giving birth


THE MEANING OF THE CONTEMPLATIVE LIFE  ACCORDING TO THOMAS MERTON by Fr. James Conner, OCSO.

The Carmelite Tradition and Centering Prayer/ Christian Meditation By Ernest Larkin, O.Carm.

Today's Contemplative Prayer Forms: Are They Contemplation? By Ernest E. Larkin O. Carm.

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Originally posted by Phil: Knowing that God was present and loving was a good thing, but that kind of intellectual affirmation is no substitute to realizing this in the depths of one's being -- in one's bones, as it were.

Perhaps some of you might comment on this point. What is the essential nature of such a 'knowing in one's bones' ? We do not validate contemplation psychologically, such as via affective overtones, but spiritually via manifested fruits? We authenticate ortho-doxy via ortho-praxy with a deemphasis on experiences and an emphasis on fidelity to practice? The contemplative stance gifts us with love & compassion as essentials but whether it otherwise takes one down the path of life via joy or sorrow, light or darkness, deep fervor or desert aridity (usually various mixtures thereof) - those are more accidental? This 'knowing in our bones' then is holistically characterized in terms of ... ?

I don't offer this rhetorically or over against as I suggest that such knowing will be grounded in that reality we know in our bones as love, which needs no apologetic, which enjoys a radical just-because-ishness as it claims its victims, who emerge always as victors. It would be heretical to deny an erotic dimension in our relationships vis a vis God, others, self, ego and creation, but the contemplative life precisely goes beyond it in its realization of agapic dimensions (cf Bernardian love per Merton). Our pursuits of truth, beauty, goodness and unity are their own rewards (intrinsically so & quite often with few extrinsic rewards, save those gratifications often deferred to the eschaton, otherwise even temporally very punishing) as we surrender understanding to faith, memory to hope, will to love. It is robustly relational, intensely personal, beyond the evidential, empirical, logical, rational, moral, practical and functional, even as not without these horizons of concern.

Peace to all you fellow pilgrims!

I'm really enjoying the wonderful exchanges. Thanks to all who have shared so much of their personal struggles and the very rich intellectual exchanges about the various meanings of "contemplative."

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Originally posted by Mt:
... I did not have real faith before I was given contemplative graces. The contemplative graces ... made me a Catholic that I am now. ... In my case states of consolation and desolation tend to have extreme forms, which is sometimes hard. ...

Me too, Mt. I can very much relate to this. The extremes do tend to die down as faith takes deeper root. Like you said, you're put on a 'faith diet' of sorts with lots of relinquishing of self and self-consciousness.

The Father told St. Catherine of Siena this about why are put through painful suffering:

...I want to make them good and perfect mediators for those who are at war with me...it is by means of My servants and their great sufferings that I would be merciful to the world and reform the Church.

I've required a lot of support from like-minded people who really love the Lord to get me through the worst of the suffering in my life. Suffering almost never feels redemptive, but often times, others can see this, encourage you, and speak God's truth and wisdom into your heart.

As your daughter gets older and requires less intensive care, you will gradually be able to introduce more prayer, Mass, fellowship with others of like mind, etc. Right now, it's all about 'survival mode.'

On a practical note, I recalled some easy ways to stay connected to God even during those grueling early childhood years. What stimulated my memory on this was something my son said just yesterday. He came across a John Michael Talbot song that he remembered from his little boyhood years. It was one that I had consistently played for my boys at bedtime during a time. He lit up with joy at the memory. He wanted to reconnect with that song. It's one of my favorites, Mary's song, the Magnificat. I was so delighted!

When my boys were little, I remember there were some nights that bedtime became a quiet time of prayer by simply playing a soothing worship piece. Other nights, I could only collapse crying "Mercy, God!"

As children get older, you can sing (if you can sing!) about your love for God. Children love singing. You can read Bible stories to them about the Lord. [I'm in favor of telling the truth about Jesus as much as the truth about Santa.]

Also, very important: You can always lay your hand gently on your child's head and say a prayer at bedtime. Just a minute or two of turning to God can be so loaded with peace and love. This is very soothing for children, and they can easily detect the solemnity and genuineness in your heart. Good to start early. As they get older, you can pray together, or ask them to pray what's in their heart. Just be careful not to turn it into a performance stage because they will learn to associate God's love with "getting prayers right." Same goes with saying "Grace" at mealtime. More often than not, I ask my boys if we can do a silent prayer before a meal. They like that a lot better than being put on the spot to pray.

I also have worship CDs in my car all the time and had them playing a lot when my boys were little. They learn to sing along and develop their own favorites.

Some parents are good about keeping a baby journal, which can serve as a letter to God. I wish I had, but I was too exhausted to write. Too exhausted to read. Barely able to get my teeth brushed some days. When I hear others read from their baby journal, I can see what an enormous blessing it is to them because it connects them with God through focusing on gratitude. For me, taking pictures of my boys was a great joy, an expression of being madly in love, and a creative high. Those are Godly ingredients anyway.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shasha,

When it comes to the importance/unimportance of spiritual experiences, for several years I tried to disregard them and ignore them, thinking that the fruits are the only thing that matters. Now I regret that, because often, when God poured love into my heart, I consciously ignored it as "just an experience". Thomas Keating called it "spiritual junk food"...

But four years ago I changed my mind. Is it unimportant that my wife kisses me? Or that she hugs me, or tell me she loves me? Our love is what matters, our actions, shared life, not words and gestures?

Perhaps, I'm misreading what Johnboy is saying, but such an approach seems to me to question the whole purpose of contemplative graces. If their function is only transformative, then - as Ruth Burrows writes - the transformation can be also completely unconscious. There are people who do not experience contemplation in that sense and they are much more holy than I am and many people who experienced infused contemplation. So what is the point in the infused contemplation? It becomes only an obstacle (because we tend to get attached to consolations) or a sort of "psychotherapy" for sick souls, as Keating suggested, saying that he thinks that people who did not get enough human love tend to be given contemplative graces. I don't think it's true.

I suppose this whole discussion is involved in the contemporary narcissistic culture which emphasizes subjective experience as an absolute. Merton and others strongly reacted to this narcissism, saying that "what you feel" does not matter, because for some people "my experience" or "what I feel" is the main point of orientation. But this reaction is too strong. When you read the "Confessions" of Augustine, he is the last person to emphasize that the experiences are important for salvation, but, at the same time, he describes the moments in which God makes him feel his presence, the most precious moments of his life (book X, for example). He says that when he loves God, he loves "a kind of a sight, a sound, a smell, a taste and a touch" within his soul, referring to spiritual senses in contemplative experience.

I suppose an analogy to marital love and expression of it through words and gestures is not a bad one. A marital act is the peak of marital love, but we all know that marriage is not only about sex. But sex is what binds spouses and helps them to survive the times of exhaustion, anger, conflicts, and raising little children too. Contemplation is like sex with God (I understand that in our culture this could sound to many people like a depreciation of contemplation, because sex is depreciated) - a moment of the greatest intimacy possible, but not the whole relationship and not something we have to think and do with each other ALL THE TIME... Holy communion is a "sexual" spiritual act too, but most of the time it is unconsciously experienced, objectively happening, but not subjectively conscious.

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We do not validate contemplation psychologically, such as via affective overtones, but spiritually via manifested fruits?

JB, you can see evidence of spiritual fruits in all sorts of people, including non-Christians and non-contemplatives. What validates contemplation psychologically is the actual experience of contemplative prayer -- a deep resting in God . . . abiding . . . sinking in . . . just-being-with . . . absorption, etc. This can vacillate between the prayer of quiet and deeper states, and one can also dip in an out of kataphatic activities (reading, reflecting, responding). In light of the anthropology I am describing on other threads, we might say that in contemplation one is non-reflectively aware of God's indwelling presence, and is drawn to attend to that presence and enjoy simply being-with God in this manner. Through this kind of rest, one's creaturely spiritual awareness is thus divinized, and this overflows into the psyche and even the body as well (a la kundalini). So, for me, at least, and many of my directees, contemplation is a very real experience, though I would not say it is validated through "affective overtones" so much as via the kinds of indicators I share above (all of which resonate with SJC and other writers on this topic, including Merton).

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We authenticate ortho-doxy via ortho-praxy with a deemphasis on experiences and an emphasis on fidelity to practice? The contemplative stance gifts us with love & compassion as essentials but whether it otherwise takes one down the path of life via joy or sorrow, light or darkness, deep fervor or desert aridity (usually various mixtures thereof) - those are more accidental? This 'knowing in our bones' then is holistically characterized in terms of ... ?

Several on this discussion have cautioned against attachment to "experiences" and how some teachings (e.g. Keating) de-emphasize experience. I do not see how one can proceed in such manner without inserting a certain amount of willfulness into the relationship with God. If "experiences" are a consequence of grace, then how can that be anything but a good thing? And if one enjoys them, then that's what they were given for.

- Taste and see the goodness of the Lord. (Ps. 34:8) -

When it's time for them to go or to change, then God will take them away, but we will be ready for God to do so. If we still hanker for them, God via spiritual direction, reading, prayer, etc. will set us straight. So I do not caution anyone about spiritual experiences unless it becomes obvious that they are more interested in those than they are in God.

Most sincere spiritual seekers are given the grace of contemplative prayer at some time, but not all are called to a contemplative vocation. SJC is more concerned about the latter in his writings, and his famous 3 signs are mostly about that. As noted above, a contemplative vocation implies making room in one's life for contemplative prayer, and adjusting one's lifestyle accordingly. It's unfortunate, in a way, that the term "contemplation" has become so "democratized" now as to make it difficult to speak of a contemplative vocation or even contemplative prayer as an actual experience.

Btw, Merton's New Seeds of Contemplation is still, to me, one of the most insightful books on contemplation and contemplative living ever written. It's really a "must-read" for anyone interested in this topic.

- - -

What about your own experiences, JB? You're an introvert, and a definite thinking type -- not the best temperament for parenting. You also obviously have a love for learning, study, writing and prayer. How did raising children complement or conflict these endeavors?