Mary is mentioned in this forum very rarely. I think she deserves a separate thread. Maria has been a focal point for all Catholics and Orthodox. The importance of her roll doesn�t exceed the roll of our lord Jesus Christ. The widespread devotion to Mary is probably related to her role in providing access to God through a more feminine connection. A well known psychologist Carl Jung noted as much in essays years ago on Anima (unconscious feminine side of males) to help account for some of the attraction to Mary. Almost all of our saints and mystics deeply appreciate Maria. They have seen the mystical function of Maria in their life. If we go back and see how the Vatican handled the question there have been many divergent views on the topic. Namely: Mary's Immaculate Conception, her cooperation in the Redemption of Mankind, Mary as Mediatrix of all graces and the Assumption of Mary into heaven are some of them. It is not the purpose of this article to discuss those issues. In this article I will try to ventilate my opinion on how I understand the roll of Maria in a Christian life.

From the earliest fathers of the Church, such as St. Justin Martyr (c. 145-150) we find the New Eve doctrine, i.e., that just as the first Eve really contributed to the damage of original sin, so Mary, the New Eve, really contributed to removing it. Today�s Church has developed this teaching. According to the Constitution on the Church of Vatican II, P61: Mary in suffering with Jesus Christ as he died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Saviour, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope and burning love, to restore supernatural life in souls. Moreover, when they clarify by what they mean her faith it reads like this "First, at the Annunciation, she was asked to consent in faith, to be the mother of the Messiah...[and] she did consent." By obedience they mean she gave her fiat, her obedience to the will of God, as the angel told her of his will. In Vatican II, Lumen gentium ## 61-62 there is an interesting passage, which I can relate with my experience of Mary. It reads like this: "For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside [her] saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of be the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland."

I�m aware that the Church doctrines on Mary apply more to a theological and doctrinal perspective, but I can see how they could relate to a personal, transformative one as well. As Phil pointed out in another thread �An objection, here, would be that many people find their way to Christ without invoking Mary nor even any sense that she plays a role in their journey of faith. This includes contemplatives with deep meditative practices as well as people using other prayer forms. To be sure, there are many who find Mary a helpful guide and intercessor.� That our focus must be always Christ is indisputable. Christ guides our life in many ways but serious Christians have to go through purification process before they embody the spirit of Christ. The purification process characterized by John of The Cross as Dark Night of the Soul clearly stated that we need to pass this night in order to see the light of God at the end of the tunnel. Actually the Dark night is aimed to purge our dark side. Maria�s roll in this purification process is enormous. Her roll as New Eve demonstrated uniquely in the purification process of our saints. Christian�s journey on this earth, if it is go well, culminates in the unification of the soul and God. On this long journey Maria�s roll is important and necessary.

While our primary focus is Christ and our primary aim is the unification of soul and god in between this process the above mentioned purification process is inevitable. Maria has a roll to play, a roll bestowed by God, in this process. This is why it is important to pray Rosary regularly. We really need her!

Now it is your turn to reflect Maria�s roll in our spiritual journey.

I find Mary a very gentle and loving presence, Grace, whose love and concern for the human race and each individual is in complete accord with Christ's love for us as well. It is good to remember that we have a spiritual mother in heaven, looking out for us. Thanks for bringing her presence to our attention.

Hey guys,

it is interesting that you bring up this topic Grace. I am a protestant by tradition, but have lately been asking the question as to the relevance of mary. I am doing a mini-thesis on the ecumenical movement and read a great article by a protestant on the subject of Mary. I suppose in truth she has never played a role in my spiritual walk, but I am trying to understand her role in the journey of others. It may take a lot to break my protestant rejection of her place in the faith journey, but only time will tell .

I wonder if I could ask some theological/spiritual questions about Mary on this thread, or would you guys prefer if I started another thread?

Sure, Jacques, go right ahead.

I just want to remember you guys 15 August is the feast of Assumption. In our tradition we have special hymn for Mary which we repeat every morning in three weeks time until the feast day of Assumption. I was so overwhelmed by her love during this process today and I strongly felt the presence of her spirit in the Church.

In the Eastern Church, the dormition ("falling asleep") of Mary began to be commemorated in the 6th century. The observance gradually spread to the West, where it became known as the feast of the Assumption. By the 13th century most Catholic theologians accepted the belief of the Assumption. However this doctrine did not become an article of faith until recent times, when Pope Pius XII declared it a dogma of the Catholic faith: �The Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory� (Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950).
Here you have more information on the feast of Assumption: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm


Jacques, for me it is ok if you ask your theological questions here.

Hi Grace,

You sure have brought back fond memories for me. My father is very devoted to Mary and when we were children (I am the second youngest of six)we often prayed the rosary together as a family after dinner. Many thanks.

Hi Guys,

Okay lets see, I haven't systematically formulated all my questions, so I will ask some stuff and then listen to your replies and then probably ask some more.

Okay, Mary...She was the human mother of Jesus and I agree that she played a major role in the future of Christianity and God's second covenant by agreeing to bear Jesus.

In the same way, Abraham is special due to his agreement to be the vehicle through which the first covenant was formed.

But does this mean that they are more special than anyone else, couldn't someone else just as easily have said yes to bearing Jesus or yes to fathering the future Israel?

This I think isn't even the major issue for me though, I suppose I really struggle with the fact that most of the doctrine or dogma concerning Mary comes directly from tradition and not scripture. I don't mind if we hold personal doctrines based on tradition, but isn't it wrong to form Christian dogma through tradition ( I don't know if it is, but I feel that it is).

In scripture, Jesus is said to have brothers and sisters, but tradition says that he didn't and that Mary was a virgin forever. I know it is an issue of interpretation, but I seem to think the Bible indicates that the first is more likely.

Then, where does the idea come from that Mary was sinless, the Bible teaches that every person is born in sin, surely Mary too?

Then, I think that I have heard that Mary did not die and was taken directly to heaven, again tradition and scripture don't seem to add up.

Also, if Christ is the only mediator between man and God, why do we need to pray to Mary, and here I think I struggle with the idea of praying to the saints as well, surely God hears the prayers of everybody and it is like going from South Africa to Paris and then to Israel, when you wanted to go straight to Israel in the first place, why go via Paris if there are direct flights.

I think this is enough for now, eagerly waiting on your replies. Thanks for bearing with me as I engage with an idea that is rather foreign to me.

Jacques, Phil may have a better response for your questions but in the mean time I refer you the following link:
http://www.catholic.com/librar...eption_and_Assum.asp

Thanks Grace,

You have edified my understanding of Mary. I will reflect on the article, it contains relavant information that requires some thought and consideration.

Thanks again

Mary is actively involved in the works of salvation. From the moment she said ok to angel Gabriel she continually working now and forever to fulfil the plan of God. Wheather we accept her as our mother or not she is streching her hand to every humanbeing. We are saved by Jesus Christ and Mary is highly involved in this process of salvation. Rosary is a means by which we remeber her in our prayer.

quote:

The word Rosary means "Crown of Roses". Our Lady has revealed to several people that each time they say a Hail Mary they are giving her a beautiful rose and that each complete Rosary makes her a crown of roses. The rose is the queen of flowers, and so the Rosary is the rose of all devotions and it is therefore the most important one. The Holy Rosary is considered a perfect prayer because within it lies the awesome story of our salvation. With the Rosary in fact we meditate the mysteries of joy, of sorrow and the glory of Jesus and Mary. It's a simple prayer, humble so much like Mary. It's a prayer we can all say together with Her, the Mother of God. With the Hail Mary we invite Her to pray for us. Our Lady always grants our request. She joins Her prayer to ours. Therefore it becomes ever more useful, because what Mary asks She always receives, Jesus can never say no to whatever His Mother asks for. In every apparition, the heavenly Mother has invited us to say the Rosary as a powerful weapon against evil, to bring us to true peace. With your prayer made together with Your heavenly Mother, you can obtain the great gift of bringing about a change of hearts and conversion. Each day, through prayer you can drive away from yourselves and from your homeland many dangers and many evils.It can seem a repetitive prayer but instead it is like two sweethearts who many times say one another the words: "I love you"...
A devout exercise to perform praying the Rosary to obtain any request is the "54-day Rosary Novena" in honor of Our Lady of Pompeii.

Excerpted from: http://www.theholyrosary.org/

quote:

Originally posted by Jacques:
[qb] . . .
Then, where does the idea come from that Mary was sinless, the Bible teaches that every person is born in sin, surely Mary too?

Then, I think that I have heard that Mary did not die and was taken directly to heaven, again tradition and scripture don't seem to add up.

Also, if Christ is the only mediator between man and God, why do we need to pray to Mary, and here I think I struggle with the idea of praying to the saints as well, surely God hears the prayers of everybody and it is like going from South Africa to Paris and then to Israel, when you wanted to go straight to Israel in the first place, why go via Paris if there are direct flights. . . [/qb]

Jacques, the Catholic Church doesn't teach that we have to go to Christ through Mary, nor that we need to pray to her. It is good to do so, but that's not the same as saying that you have to.

There's nothing in the Catholic teaching about Mary that conflicts with Scripture; it merely adds to what we know about her. You might do a web search for the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption to answer some of your other questions. There's a lot already written. See what questions you have after doing so.

I enjoyed the articles that Grace directed me to (and while I have not necasarily changed my views, they made me think and realise that I don't really have a problem with any of them if they are true, it doesn't really change how I experience God in Christ).

I know that there is a lot already written about these issues, but I suppose hearing it from you guys means something to me because I trust you and in some weird internety kind of way I am in relationship with you.

Maybe you could talk to me about the difference between praying to Mary (or Saints) and the forbidden practice of Necromancy. I suppose that there is the obvious difference in that the former is talking to them and not expecting a reply, and the other is intended to be a two way conversation. But why are they different in principle.

Grace, you say that Christ cannot refuse anything that Mary asks him, I struggle with that statement. Unless of course she would never ask anything contrary to the will of God anyway. But it almost feels like the Charasmatic "word of Faith" movement and their "name it and claim it" gospel.

Help me understand this guys: I have a request that I desire anwered by God. a)I go to mary and she prays with me and we both pray to Jesus who then decides whether to give it to me. or b) I just ask Jesus because he is going to decide anyway.

I am not tring to be disrespectful, i am just tring to understand.

Also, I was wondering, do you have to believe everything that the catholic church says to be a catholic. In some way I want to be catholic, but I also don't think I would ever go along with everything the church says. How much room is there in catholicism for debate and disagreement with the doctrines or dogmas, while remaining a catholic.

Jacques, as usual you put very good question. I want to be clear on this point. My devotion to Mary is mere experiential rather than belief. I began to appreciate Mary (in a real and deep sense) after my 2004 experience. The moment Christ contacted me and declared he is the only way I became aware the presence of Mary. Her presence at that moment was interwoven to the awakened kundalini. You can read my experience here: http://shalomplace.com/ubb/ult...f=20;t=000006#000006

My understanding of Mary's importance in our spiritual journey is she helps us to be free from our emotional or other stuffs hidden in ourselves and she prepares us to embody the spirit of Christ in us. In my experience for some reason her energy is strongly related to the energy of kundalini. But her roll doesn't stop there. Today I expereince her as a mother of universe. So, all that veneration practised by Catholics has more mystical meaning. The question is not weather we pray to her first or not. What if we don't pray to her at all? Our relation with God will not be affected negatively but if we acknowledge her presence, I believe, our consciousness of Christ become more richer. Weather we are conscious or not Mary is already involved in our spiritual journey provided that we solely focus on Christ.

Re. your question on Catholicism three things attracted me in Catholicism. Eucharist, Mary & saints and the importance of Tardition & Scripture. Also, there are many stuffs which I don�t support. I don't go along with everything the Church says. I also admire those protestant denominations that have clear stand on Christ, clear stand on Israel and clear stand on Christian moral and ethic. Sometimes I attend their program and I observed the presence of Holy Spirit. Recently while I was hearing a sermon by one protestant Pastor I clearly saw/felt the presence of Holy Spirit in him and suddenly my eyes filled with tears.

Mary's roll as mother of God is known. In the following article her queenship is pronounced

quote:

Scripture, with the help of a bit of reflection, does teach us that she has the title of Queen not only as Mother of the Creator, but also by right of conquest. She is Queen on chiefly two principal titles: divine relationship. Yes, she is the Mother of the Creator, inasmuch as her son, as God, is the Creator. She is Queen by right of conquest. We saw her association with Him also from Scripture. And just as He is to King for all eternity, since "all power in heaven and on earth" was given to Him, so her royal power, in union with Him, is to last forever. Her union with her King is unending, eternal. So we conclude: Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness, our hope!

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/KINGSHIP.HTM

Hey Grace,

Have you seen the thread I started on the Femininity of the Holy Spirit and the connection with Mary. Wonder what you think

I have seen the link you refered on the other thread. It sounds gnostic. For me Mary is not comparable to Holy Spirit weather we see the spirit as feminine or masculine. Holy Spirit is the third person in Trinity whereas Mary has a distinct roll as assistance of Trinity. In my expereince the spirit of Christ (the third person in Trinity) feels feminin. Since integration and immersion into Christ occurs through Holy Spirit it is possible Holy Spirit have a feminin character.

Hi Grace,

As I mentioned in the thread, I do not really agree with what the articles say specifically, just that they highlight the Biblical and traditional link between the femininity and the Holy Spirit. The Mary link I found interesting only to the point of saying that perhaps Mary was a symbol of the Holy Spirit, but not more.

Mary, daughter of Zion:
http://www.kidanemhret.com/mariamzion.htm

http://www.vatican.va/holy_fat...ginis-mariae_en.html

!!!!

Thanks Grace for bringing Mary to my attention again.

Last week-end, I was on a pilgrimage to Liège (Legion of Little Souls =) google!) and for the first time I was so impressed and touched by everything there. Many people tend to be cynical about popular devotion and simple things (as I did before) but God touched me. I loved the sacral Latin Mass and beautiful liturgy celebrated by the bishop there, the simple down to earth and Marian devotion of these people, the figure of John the Baptist (his feast day), the excellent homily on humility and poverty of spirit, and the messages of Marguerite...

So I find the role of Mother Mary crucial! Rosary prayer is not only a means towards contemplation but it is much more.

PAX,
Fred

http://www.amazon.com/Threefol...00159/ref=pd_sim_b_3

7 of 7 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars Praying Theology, April 29, 2004
By Oswald Sobrino "CatholicAnalysis.blogspot.com" (USA) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)

Get this book, and run with it. You will be enlightened, and you will pray as you have never prayed before. Balthasar always contended for a kneeling theology, for theologians who prayed. This small book on the rosary is the manual for a kneeling theology. We are all theologians engaged in the journey of faith seeking understanding. That quest is inseparable from prayer.

All too often in contemporary Catholicism, the “rosary crowd” and the “centering prayer crowd” inhabit opposite ends of the theological spectrum. So I was happy to find this site that celebrates the contemplative dimension of using the rosary — bringing the kataphatic and apophatic dimensions of spiritual practice together.

Rosaries of Divine Union: The Contemplative Dimension of Prayer

On the website you will find a variety of different tools to use with the rosary, integrating a wide array of devotional prayers and litanies from both the eastern and western churches. For example, the “Rosary of St. Francis” integrates the “Canticle of the Sun” with other Franciscan prayers into the ordinary round of the Hail Mary and the Our Father. On this page you’ll also find the “Rosary of the Archangels,” “Rosary of Psalms,” and the “Rosary of the Living Parables,” among others. Quotations from mystics and contemplatives ancient and modern (from Mechthild of Magdeburg and Teresa of Avila to Thomas Keating) dance through the site as well. You can access all these goodies directly from the website, or download a 129-page PDF book filled with all these devotional resources that will keep your beads clicking for months to come.

Fred, it sounds like you've come to a deep appreciation of the rosary and the place of Mary in the Christian life. Thanks for sharing these resources with us.