Increasingly in prayer I'm aware of the Presence of God sitting quietly behind my mind. Whether my mind is still or active I sense Him there, calm, quiet, gentle. Very beautiful. Then, on occasion, as my mind links into a certain thought in prayer (tonight for eg. it was Christ as Son of God), that Presence surges towards me in a great swell. Inevitably, my mind tries to latch on to this swelling Presence, and by doing so, I lose it. I hear God laughing tenderly at poor grasping self. This activity of the mind and the rise of Kundalini are common reactions to the swelling Presence of God, but another common reaction until recently, for me, was an opening of old wounds, connections to healers, psychics etc, whom I was involved with before returning to Christianity. As I grow up in God this adverse reaction is diminishing and that quiet, gentle Presence of God is lingering with me always.

BUT . . . the most intense form of this adverse reaction happened about a year ago when I went through a period saying the Jesus prayer. I was suddenly connected to psychics and others of ill will, people I'd never met and am not likely to meet, and experienced some rather nasty attacks. They passed, as they always do, but I was left reluctant to say the Prayer.

SO . . . what are the connections between evil and prayer? in particular the Jesus prayer?

How are these occult linkages established?

Does contemplative prayer open up psychic barriers between Self and Other(external realities)?

Are these hurdles to be negotiated in the continual move towards God's loving Presence?

Thanks, blessings, and any contributions welcome . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb]Increasingly in prayer I'm aware of the Presence of God sitting quietly behind my mind... Then, on occasion ... that Presence surges towards me in a great swell. Inevitably, my mind tries to latch on to this swelling Presence, and by doing so, I lose it.[/qb]

That�s the great paradox in prayer and meditation, isn�t it? The blessing you describe, your awareness of the Presence of God, happens through grace. And as soon as you try to let it happen through your own will, it �slips through your fingers�.

Just return your awareness to your Prayer and let go of all else.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb]...another common reaction until recently, for me, was an opening of old wounds...[/qb]

This can be a unique opportunity to let them go, to let them heal. Unless it is too painful, too overwhelming � in which case you may need to take measures.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb]As I grow up in God this adverse reaction is diminishing and that quiet, gentle Presence of God is lingering with me always. ...[/qb]

How wonderful!

I think others are far more qualified to address other parts of your post.

But I would like to share a line I recall from a particular conversation between two friends, one far older than the other:

�You know, John, I see Christ more clearly than you. Because I see Christ with my heart in Prayer, while I see you with my senses.�

With best regards,
HeartPrayer

Hi Stephen,

I wish I knew more about the subject, but unfortunately I don't and therefore I don't think I can help you. I asked for you to share because gathering information about these kinds of things is helpful as I try to process where all these things sit in proportion to God and me. Sad to say it often confuses me more than helps me, but i feel it is still necessary.

This issue is not unlike the one talked about on the New Age Mysticism thread. I pertains to the nature of occultism, religion, spirituality etc.

In the past I would just have said that Kundalini and mantra type praying is unlike anything described in the bible and vain repetitions are warned against by Jesus. My heart is torn as I don't feel this to an accurate analysis of mystical theology, contemperory spirituality etc. and yet experiences like yours with the Jesus prayer and also your and shashas experiences described in the new age thread tend to lean me toward my old assumptions.

There must be other ways of understanding all of this, but they certainly don't fit into the neat packaging I used to think it does. Sorry this isn't really helpful.

What do you think of the fact that the Jesus prayer seems closer to Hindu type praying and the fact that Jesus warns us not to pray like the pagans. Does it apply, doesn't it, and why?

quote:

Originally posted by Jacques:
[qb]This issue is not unlike the one talked about on the New Age Mysticism thread. It pertains to the nature of occultism, religion, spirituality etc.[/qb]

quote:

Originally posted by Jacques:
[qb]What do you think of the fact that the Jesus prayer seems closer to Hindu type praying and the fact that Jesus warns us not to pray like the pagans. Does it apply, doesn't it, and why? [/qb]

I assure you it�s essence is very unlike Hindu meditations. Superficial similarities quickly fade as your praying heart probes beneath the surface. There is a wealth of literature that unequivocally supports my view, for those who wish to explore it.

However, the practice of the Prayer is not for for everyone. There may be significant personal or circumstantial contraindications that are vital for you to take into account. Just as there is, for instance, in regards to choosing monastic life. Ignoring that may, in fact, be harmful! But it does not provide a basis for critique.

The scriptural basis for the Prayer of the Heart (Jesus Prayer) is solid. As Phil pointed out in the other thread, there is no controversy here.

I hear you Heartprayer and I am not really arguing against your view. I too rather enjoy the prayer, it is simply the experience of Stephen that causes me to fall back into my old paradigm.

Still, I have not really reflected on the reason that the prayer is different from other mantra prayers, in fact to the contrary I have read contemporary Christian mystics like Robert de Fries who use it (in their own descriptions) exactly as a hindu type mantra. Does anyone have an inclusive answer to Jesus' statement? One that supports the kind of interfaith dialogue and shared practice that is becoming more prominant in our times?

quote:

However, the practice of the Prayer is not for for everyone. There may be significant personal or circumstantial contraindications that are vital for you to take into account.

I think this speaks to my own use of the Prayer. It was undertaken without a guide, although I was immersing myself in relevant literature, and this was probably a mistake. My own weaknesses and sore spots made me incompatible. That initial bursting of the heart that HP talks of elsewhere still seems to be with me as I continue in other forms of prayer but not as intense or concentated as it was with The Jesus Prayer.

I can see the point of comparing the Prayer to Hindu mantra as, to me, it seemed to carry an energy vibration, as well as invoking the name of Christ. Of course it is the fact that Christ's name is used so powerfully that distinguishes it from mantra. Still I feel it has that vibration which opens the heart and connects users to a psychic wavelength, wherein lies my own problem with its use.

Two questions arise from this if it's a legitimate point. One, why would the energy of the prayer connect with an ill intentioned external source? Also, how on earth can someone who uses the prayer be so ill intentioned?(See the "Recommended Books" thread). I've read of monks on Mt Athos going crazy through use of the Prayer and can only surmise that there's got to be a concomitant drive for purity and holiness for God's grace to take effect with the Prayer. This would seem to indicate that the prayer can be effectual without God' grace ie having a kind of negative effect rather than an ineffectuality.

Again I have to say I know that the Prayer has blessed countless others so I hope my comments don't sound too derogatory. They speak of my own experience. God's grace will work through the Prayer more often than not.

My experience with the Jesus Prayer, as distinct from Lectio Divina, is similar to Stephen's, at least in noticing that LD seems to give the Holy Spirit more room beyond the grasp of my own faculties, yet nutures those faculties slowly. IOW, there may be an interior sense of things in the chest, and there may not. In the JP, there seems to be a narrowing of attention via a desired goal, almost like a technique to produce an effect rather than simply an honest, consenting devotional relationship that God directs.

Consider what St. John of the Cross, keen to the tradition of Lectio Divina, says about this interiority; however, he may not have been speaking to novices who needed milk before meat:


"What more do you want, o soul! And what else do you search for outside, when within yourself you possess your riches, delights, satisfaction and kingdom -- your beloved whom you desire and seek? Desire him there, adore him there. Do not go in pursuit of him outside yourself. You will only become distracted and you won't find him, or enjoy him more than by seeking him within you."


This seems quite different that simply uttering the name of Jesus over and over in order to habituate attention to the visceral reality of the heart.

quote:

Two questions arise from this if it's a legitimate point. One, why would the energy of the prayer connect with an ill intentioned external source? Also, how on earth can someone who uses the prayer be so ill intentioned?(See the "Recommended Books" thread). I've read of monks on Mt Athos going crazy through use of the Prayer . . .

I think w.c. has given some good response on this point. To the extent that the JP works in the unconscious as a mantra, then it's questionable to call it a prayer. Same goes for John Main's Christian Meditation method, which uses the word, "maranatha."

What makes prayer be prayer is not so much that it tears down defense mechanisms and opens one to unconscious material, but that it "lifts the mind and heart to God," to quote Augustine. The wording of the JP certainly moves in that direction, and there's no doubt that reciting it mindfully and putting one's intent into it is authentic Christian prayer. I don't know about repeating it for long periods of time, however, or as the be-all of one's prayer. Surely there is more to say to God than this? Then there is the possibility that its activity in the unconscious might be more along the lines of a kind of linguistic "worm" (like Hindu mantras) than as prayer.

Much as I liked and agreed with w.c.'s point, I don't quite see how it answers my own questions, Phil, unless you're referring to the quote from St J of the C about seeking God outside ourselves. Do you think the external energies I'm referring to are part of the unconscious? Or do you think that what I experience is not sourced externally?

I honestly don't know, Stephen. You've stated all along that you believe they're extra-psychic entities and I have no reason to doubt your discernment.

But here's something to remember. A large number of mystics using a wide variety of prayer methods -- including very traditional ones along with frequent reception of the Sacraments -- have reported encounters/struggles with demons. Even Jesus had a round with them in the desert at the beginning of his ministry! Maybe your struggle can be seen in light of this perspective . . . it's just something that seems to happen at some time. That you are more directly aware of it after using something like the Jesus Prayer doesn't mean these entities (whatever their source) aren't also active when you're using other prayer forms. It stands to reason that anything that draws one closer to God will also draw opposition from the Enemy, no?

Phil:"That you are more directly aware of it after using something like the Jesus Prayer doesn't mean these entities (whatever their source) aren't also active when you're using other prayer forms. It stands to reason that anything that draws one closer to God will also draw opposition from the Enemy, no?"


That's true, Phil, and very reasonable. I hate harping on about my troubles (which, as I say, aren't so great, really) and hope any discussions we have along these lines can move beyond them.

There is a story about student of meditation. All the sudden, he started having horribe exeriences, at every sitting, and felt very, very threatened.

"I am being chased by demons!" he shouted, catching his breath after having run to his master.

"More practice," said the abbot, with a loving smile.

Some months passed. The student�s visions of demons ceased. And one day, while meditating, he saw an angel of light and was filled with overwhelming bliss.

"I have been visited by an angel" he shouted, catching his breath after having run to his master.

"More practice," said the abbot, with the same loving smile.

------------------

In our Practice of the Prayer, too, we may witness demons or angels � within ourselves or from outside. Or from a place that is neither within nor without. However, in all cases, we must remain firm in our Prayer in Christ, letting all else pass.

quote:

. . . "More practice," said the abbot, with the same loving smile.

That's a good one!

- - -

Another story about demons mentions a saintly monk who woke up one night and found the devil sitting on a chair next to his bed, gazing at him with utter contempt. Upon recognizing the adversary, the monk yawned and said, "Oh, it's you," then lay down, turned himself away from the devil, and went back to sleep.

As a Catholic nun said when she offered me spiritual advice in the midst of an extremely turbulent crisis many years ago:

"Through your own fear, you have given the shadow far too much power."

I also recall the advice of elders to children in a society where interpretation of dreams was a de rigeur part of breakfast:

"The next time you are being chased by a demon, turn around and ask what it wants."

when is a shadow not a shadow? when the light is on...


may I ask about using zazen technigues but rather than repeating a mantra or focusing on emtying the mind, repeating a phrase from the bible.

I used to pratice zazen only but have recently been through a questioning phase r.e this and decided to try the above...

i realize trying to syntheisize two different systems might be a bit contradictory. what are peoples thoughts about this, or about practicing another form of meditation in addition to more tradtional froms of prayer...

PS!

i found this recently
http://www.sotozen-net.or.jp/k...ends/zf15_1/feat.htm
to quote:
Zen points the way to true self-knowledge and deeper relations with God. It involves discomfort and pain but refreshes the mind in an indescribable way. Through studying Zen, we understand that, viewed with eyes wide open, what once seemed dark and negative is actually luminous and positive.

Daily we pray, celebrate the mass, and read the Bible. If we practice zazen beforehand, the words of the scripture make their way directly into our hearts. The Bible says that Jesus often prayed in lonely wastelands and deserts, where he confronted himself and God directly. The manner in which he did this is not set forth in detail. The postures, breathing, and mental attitudes of zazen may help us understand it better.