Hi all,

I've just joined SP and, like so many others, I am wrestling with where I'm at in my life. I don't really know where to begin and so most of this will probably sound like a ramble. I am struggling more than ever with the desire to 'be away from the body and at home with the Lord'.

I am 29 and have been a Christian for 18 years. I have always been 'too intense' for others and this has brought a great deal of complexity and pain into my life from the day of my conversion. I don't believe the intensity is an ego thing (not that I'm saying I have no ego). The intensity in not even really a bad thing, it's just something very few other people really understand... and that many have been deeply threatened by... some have said I have the intensity allows me to walk into a difficult or painful situation involving others and bring with me a tacit sense of understanding, compassion, and peace... so it appears to have a dual purpose...

I work in a church and have wanted to be in full time pastoral-church ministry since my conversion at age 11. I would describe myself as existential, kinesthetic, contemplative, mystical, sacramental... and reasonably conservative and evangelical (which may all seem a little contradictory?). I began studying theology at seminary in Toronto at the age of 18 and it has been a massive journey for me. I am South African. I started out in a Reformed & Calvinistic Baptist tradition and am now in the Methodist Church... go figure... I am enjoying the breadth and freedom in the Methodist Church, but I am feeling more alone in life than ever before.

I love God more than anything and my fundamental connectedness to Him has never been broken though I have been through many dark nights. I love people deeply and I love serving people, but my life has become almost unbearably weary... and ministry has always been a bitter sweet reality for me - though I wouldn't want to do anything else with my life.

So... I'm needing some spiritual friendship to help me through this time in my life. I feel deeply alone and misunderstood... like I dwell in a realm that is so very different to the lives of so many around me. Maybe it's time for another major spiritual change/challenge/transformation in me... but these days I would like, more than anything, an invitation home.

So there you have it... I hope I do not come across as fatalistic... I hope someone will truly hear me and understand something of where I'm at and help me somehow to regain a sense of courage and a renewed sense of purpose in life and ministry. I know that this is ultimately God's job, but as I read somewhere else on SP, often the best thing is to reach out to other people for help and support.

I look forward to receiving from you what God would have me receive.

Love Chris

Hi Chris,

Welcome to Shalom Place. It's nice to have you join and share of your struggles. And did you know that one of our 'regulars' lives in South Africa?...at least I think that's where Jacques lives, although I don't think he's native South African.

In any case, back to your post. Yes, life-weariness and longing for eternity...are you saying you are so weary of life on Earth that you are longing to die and go to heaven? Hmmm...I guess if you were a close friend of mine who told me that, I'd be a little worried about depression. I'm not assuming that about you, or course, but that would be my initial reaction and concern.

On the other hand, your post also reminds me to some extent of something the Saints have described. St. Paul longed to go Home to be with God. There is the mystical sense of living in an 'in between' kind of reality, neither fully on Earth, but not all the way in Heaven, but sortof stuck in between. St. Theresa of Avila writes of times when she felt painfully stuck in between Earth and the heavenly realm.

I'm wondering if you've considered seeking spiritual direction to help with discerning some of this? I know that full-time ministry can become so all-consuming that one sometimes forgets about one's own needs for nurturance, support, and the need to be vulnerable with another.

That's all for tonight, but I'd like to get back to your sharing later.

Peace,
Shasha

Yes, Welcome my friend. Glad to see you here.

Chris is a close friend Shasha, we studied Theology together. Unfortunately since that time we have always lived hundreds (and sometimes thousands) of miles from each other.

(and it all depends on what you mean my native Chris and I are white South Africans, but I was born and raised here - I think my ancestors originally came from Germany and England and perhaps Holland as well lol)

I recommended that Chris share his struggles here as I've always found this community to be a source of comfort, help and guidance. You all have keen spiritual insight and I believe spending time here may benefit him as he wrestles with the ups and downs of his Life in Christ.

Adding my welcome, Chris. I hope you will find something of the spiritual friendship you seek, here.

I echo Shasha's suggestion of spiritual direction, and I see from the web site at http://sdiworld.org that there are several from South Africa listed in the Spiritual Directors International directory. You can use the Seek and Find guide on their site to find out more about them.

There's a sense in which anyone who is spiritually awake feels not-quite-at-home in this world. We are just passing through, and though it is a lovely place, it's not our real home.

Hi again Chris,

You're lucky to have such a good friend as Jacques.

Hi everyone

Thank-you for all the feedback, I will follow up on the links & leads . I'm very grateful for your comments! Shasha, thank-you for your insights on the 'in between' reality. This is definitely more of the kind of experience I have had and I will look into it a little more and provide some feedback on what I find. Jacques is like a brother to me and the two of us have spent hours engaging one another on 'all things spiritual'

I will be away for a few days, which will give me time to think through some of the content here and get back to you.

Blessings, Chris

Hi Chris,

I hope you find what you are looking for on this board.

" I am enjoying the breadth and freedom in the Methodist Church, but I am feeling more alone in life than ever before. "

Perhaps your issue is that you are looking outside for guidance instead of inside.

Jesus said The Kingdom of God is inside you.

But to do that I believe a person needs to understand themselves and connect with the divine aspect inside themselves.

Have you ever thought about therapy? or some kind of spiritual work which doesn't tell you what God is but helps you experience God for yourself?

There is a TV channel here with many many different kinds of therapies.You can watch people talking about their experiences with many different ways of finding God http://conscious.tv

Good luck

Hey Chris,

Was reflecting on this thread over the weekend and something came to mind.

While to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord and therefore truly something to long and hope for, perhaps there is another element to throw into the mix that may give deeper importance to the here and now.

N.T. Wright has made the point that heaven, as the intermediate state is not the goal of the spiritual journey. Instead the goal is the new heavens and the new earth.

He goes on to show that there will be significant continuity between the good things we do on this "old earth" and the glory and goodness of the new one.

Perhaps deeper meditation on the hope of the new heavens and earth and the importance of what we are doing now in preparation for the new earth may help quench some of the intense desire for the intermediate state - even though in comparison with life here and now it will be a far deeper experience of God that we enjoy in the present reality.

As we continue to contemplate the true continuity between life now and the new earth we may begin to live more and more in the reality of the new earth and realize the intermediate state is not the end of the journey.

Hi All,

There is so much here... and again, thank-you all for your input. I do want to clarify that I am not so much 'depressed' at being here... nor do I want to 'end my life' as much as I am longing for a fuller encounter with God, which is inevitably (though not ultimately)limited by 'being in the body'. I think spiritual therapies would be of help, but my sense is that this reality somehow moves beyond just that. Strictly speaking... encountering reality day by day (with God) is in itself a powerful spiritual therapy... if not the most powerful...

I think what I often feel is the weight of the reality around me. Life is good in many ways and so are people, but the world is fallen and it has a bearing on our experiences and on our hearts... more and more in fact as we grow in our knowledge of God's kingdom within us.

I have no doubt that God's kingdom is within us, but it is a growing reality, not a complete reality. Even Paul speaks of the groaning and growth-pains associated with the developing kingdom within us. Jacques, dear friend! I do agree with you re the new heaven and the new earth, but those constructs (in and of themselves... and with regard to our present reality) don't really get at the heart of the issue... I don't want to quench the desire - the 'groaning' because it's in experiencing the growth-pains that we are more united with Christ in his death and so become like Him in this continuum of internal resurrection until we are ultimately glorified - in the Pauline sense of the word.

Diamondridhwan - It is true, to an extent, that we don't look outside of our inner experience of God for guidance (or rather that we should prioritize it)... but at the same time, God often speaks most clearly through outward forms... in fact they are often the very tools He uses to shape our inner perception of truth. Not only that, but what is shaped within us inevitably must go on to shape the very outer world that has been so instrumental in shaping it in the first place. This is how we truly impact the world for Christ. So what I'm saying is that yes, God guides us through His Spirit within us, witnessing with our own spirits... but He also speaks through the realities outside of ourselves - and often in ways that cause us to bear the weight (quite tangibly) of the burden of that reality until, our transformed inner perceptions of truth (if we allow them to occur) effect a reciprocal transformation of the outer realities themselves.

What I'm saying is that when you experience these things, the weight of the experience can be overwhelming... which yes, does lead us to prayer and a deeper sense of union with God... but sometimes, the resolution or the 'redemption'... or 'application' of the experience is delayed. We in our weakness perceive this I think as something of the in-between-ness of reality mentioned earlier. Paul in Romans, in fact, actually depicts it as an ongoing reality - a continuum of redemption...

I just think that sometimes, the weight of this is heavier. Jeanne Guyon in her writings (as captured in the book Spiritual Torrents) talks about how the 'waterfalls' (climatic points in these difficult times of experience) appear less frequently is life, relatively speaking, as spiritual growth progresses... but they also become higher and deeper.

Maybe my first post was an expression of this. I think it was also underpinned by a deep frustration I was experiencing which in many ways has found resolution. My concern is that it 's more than just that though.

And I know that in a sense this leaves us at an apparent dead end.

?

Some extra thoughts from another discussion:

I find that my experience of external things generally reinforces (and obviously sometimes challenges) my internal perception of truth. I experience the most intense sadness/weariness... the 'inner groaning'when my perceptions are reinforced (cf. Eccl. 1:8). This leads to a reinforcing of the fact that this earth is not my home and so I feel caught between here and eternity. I believe that this is what Moses felt when he descended from Sinai to find the Israelites together with Aaron worshiping baal (I believe this feeling is what cause him to strike the rock at Marah); what Samuel felt when Israel demanded a king; what Elijah experienced after running away from Jezebel and what Jeremiah experiences so acutely right at the very beginning of his ministry... and then throughout it. I believe Jesus experienced it when He could see that those he spoke to (including the disciples - those closest to Him) did not understand Him (e.g. John 16:1-33; Luke 22:24-34). Was Jesus' heartbroken expression in Mark 14:34 not a micro-cosmic allusion to the bigger reality expressed in John 1:4-5... and do we not also enter into this ourselves whenever we move into the 'dark night'... whenever our external realities confirm our inner sense of transcendence and aloneness (1 Cor. 2:12-14)?

I'm not saying this is bad, just harder at times.

Also one of our 'external realities' (which of course is in a sense also internal) is facing up to our 'own' egos.. especially insofar as they impact the world around us.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisJohn:
I think what I often feel is the weight of the reality around me.

ChrisJohn, if these feelings are persistent over many years, they may be the result of imprinted early experiences. Check out The New Primal Scream: Primal Therapy 20 Years On by Arthur Janov.

Hi ChrisJohn,

It's hard to know what you are actually talking about
when you say "weight of reality" and such. So it's hard
to respond in a meaningful way. Maybe you're showing us a glimpse of why people have referred to you as "intense" if you
relate to others in this abstract, intellectual way.

I want to respect that you are perhaps being deliberately vague in your sharing;
maybe what you're referring to underneath all this is too personal for a public forum. That's certainly understandable.

There's risk to moving discussions from a vague and hyper-intellectual level to the personal and specific. Please feel free to share only what is comfortable.

Also, as you may already have noticed, there are a lot of varied topics at SP that may resonate with your struggles. Jump into any one of them with questions or comments even if they are old. Christ's peace, Shasha

Hi Chris---

I'm just saying hello and encouraging you, too, to feel free to bring up old threads.

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:
...

Crying helps me to release in these types of situations. For me, the sadness, the loneliness, the isolation that is experienced in/from the outer world is a refection of what is (yet unrecognized) within myself. This is what is separating me from a deeper relationship with God.

That's really insightful, Mary Sue.I've felt that way many times, that a crying spell cleansed me of some internal block. And I didn't know how internal the problem was until the tears came out.

Hey all,

Thanks for making contact. Mary Sue, I'm grateful for what you've shared; it does provide insight, and it certainly is true. In fact I'd like to unpack some of your own experience more on this if you are comfortable with that? Shasha, I appreciate your engagement, I really do, but I do feel that you are minimizing my experience, which is not really helping me very much. I am engaging in another private discussion which is also adding value.

As I said at the end of my last post, I think that I have hit a bit of a dead end. Maybe it is a bit conceptual (maybe, Shasha), but that is who I am and my experiences are nevertheless real to me. I think sometimes, you can resolve certain 'spiritual anomalies' by resolving actual issues in life (and there are a number of actual issues I am obviously working through... as we all do), but solving those issues (for me anyway) has never removed from me that all-pervading sense of aloneness in this world... an alonenness which does cause pain - and that isn't a bad thing because it deepens our understanding of God's experience of us as a fallen race - which is what Paul says.

As I say, I'd like to chat with more of you... I'd be really interested in know how you experience these things and what kind of things bring you a sense (relative of course) of comfort as you journey on in the continuum of sanctification.

I hope this makes sense... if not, let's, if you feel it is of any value, unpack it together

More from another discussion:

Hi, you really are speaking well to my experience. Thank-you, I am grateful for your insights. You know, I think in the end, just as Paul says (Rom. 8:18-26), the feeling of 'darkness' won't leave us until the moment we are translated fully into glory (and we don't even really know what that experience really is... until it happens). Paul seems to indicate, more so, that this 'inner discomfort' will actually grow in intensity as we progressively transcend our 'earthliness' (does that make sense?). Of course, the 'expectation' of future glory (which for me relates more to being perfectly united to God... and others... more than anything else) also grows... but this is a bitter-sweet experience for us in our earthly humanness.

It's just that the intensity of the sense of aloneness and darkness can sometimes be overwhelming... sometimes it even affects my physical health. Often it affects my sleep, which affects other aspects of my health... especially in regard to energy and motivation.

I do find prayer and other things helpful, but in the end this reality seems to remain as the 'bedrock' of my overall spiritual experience. And in the light of Romans 8:18-26... it seems like it is meant to be that way?

I think like you've said, the main issue isn't so much the journey... maybe it's just the relative lack of companionship on the journey. Often I long to meet someone who understands the journey better than me and can offer me tangible companionship in it. I realize that God sometimes doesn't allow it so that we will learn to depend solely on Him for guidance and sustenance, but I know that there are people who do understand this deeply and with whom maybe a better connectedness is possible... is it possible that some may possesses these inner resources and not even be aware of it...?

Chris---

I've had an old SP thread in mind for several days that may be helpful here, but I can't think of any distinct words to use to search for it. I'll post a link to it if I can remember the thread title.

I find the saying "I can relate to people not being able to relate" helps me at those times when I feel alienated. IOW, I recognize that even in those times when I've felt exiled, "not at home", or "a stranger in a strange land" some of that feeling is coming perhaps from a sort of existential pain that can't be full healed here on earth, but some is also coming from a more mundane failure to see that just about everyone has problems in relating to others.

ChrisJohn,
I wasn't meaning to minimize your pain and suffering at all. I know that it is real. I wasn't saying it's not *real* or serious. I was referring to the way you're talking about your pain in your posts seemed elusive and vague, which made it, for me, hard to know how to respond. So, better to have not said anything!

Others seemed more intuitively on board with responding, like Mary Sue and I think Derek's comment was picking up on the same theme.

And I hear you that this is simply who you are and how you talk about yourself.

Good to see that you're finding some support in other places too.

quote:

Originally posted by Ariel X:
...I recognize that even in those times when I've felt exiled, "not at home", or "a stranger in a strange land" some of that feeling is coming perhaps from a sort of existential pain that can't be full healed here on earth, but some is also coming from a more mundane failure to see that just about everyone has problems in relating to others.

That's so true, Ariel.

Hey guys,

Ariel thanks for your insights, I agree with you... It sounds cliched, but I think our fear of rejection often prevents us from relating better to one another and we have to work hard at taking the risk and overcoming fear in relating to others. Often once we do it ourselves, they also begin to relate better. Shasha, I'm grateful for your insights, just think maybe we've been missing each other a bit. I'm not perfect, and I do want to connect and learn

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisJohn: It sounds cliched, but I think our fear of rejection often prevents us from relating better to one another and we have to work hard at taking the risk and overcoming fear in relating to others. Often once we do it ourselves, they also begin to relate better.

Yes, that sums up what I was thinking very well.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisJohn:
...I do want to connect and learn

That's great...me too.

I was thinking about your comment above about your intense sadness causing you to lose sleep and maybe affecting your physical health. Again, this alerts me to the possibility of some kind of depression. Some people can have a low-grade depression and not really know it.

Of course, I'm not assuming this about you, Chris, but it's worth considering as an FYI to readers that some of the things you describe do resemble clinical depression.

Here are some classic symptoms: Intense sadness, isolation, diminished interest in activities, disturbed sleep and appetite. Low energy is a classic marker. Mental confusion and/or inability to make decisions are often present too. Can't look forward to anything in the future. Suicidal thoughts or a passive wish to die. Many depressed people describe themselves as having a sense of heaviness over them, like walking through water, or in a thick cloud, feeling a pervasive, all-encompassing sense of sadness or feeling blue but not being able to connect it to something specific.

In any case, I'll lift you up in my prayer, Chris.

Chris,
I was just listening to a monk who shared that Mother Theresa once told him of her "desperate loneliness." This blessed Saint apparently suffered periods of intense isolation.

In Thomas Dubay's book, "Fire Within," there's a chart (p. 163) on differentiating between depression and the spiritual dark nights. I'd recommend that book for any serious Christian. I personally think there is a lot of overlap, with emotional/mental depression embedded inside of a dark night. That was the case with me several years ago.

Dear Chris
I believe in spiritual growth one can hit a time of selflessness, which is painful and part of the born again experience being made a new creation. It is a time of vulnerability and it is good to speak and share as you are doing. You will become stronger by it and more aware of the new creation you and we are all becoming in Christ.
with empathy
Maggie3

all I would add:

go within, know thyself, & study what exactly "ego" is.

Ultimately when Jesus said "The Kingdom of Heaven is Within You." He wasn't lying.

Go with, let go, surrender. Doing that will reveal all types of deeper issues that God begins to bring to the surface and spring clean.

All this activity in your life needs tempering with stillness & Being.