Phil <br /><br />Returning to Church is coming into question for me presently. And this thread on BR is bringing up something i have been wondering about.<br />I have done some research in the Church's<br />history and there were definite decisions of the direction that the majority wished to go. But not everyone agreed with these decisions from what i can tell.<br /><br />Phil " That ignores the persuasive force of God's grace, however -- that God draws us into the Church in spite of its hypocrites and manifold shortcomings." ..........<br />"The issue of how one's psycho-social development influences spiritual experience is especially significant, I believe. On the one hand, it seems that just nothing is beyond the reach of God's love -- that our inner wounds can provide special places for God's indwelling. But our wounds also influence our manner of relating and our receptivity to grace, which, in turn, deeply colors one's spirituality."....<br /><br /><br />Is there any reason why this couldn't be said about the development of the Church itself? What checks & balances does the Church use to make sure they are on the right track because even the psychological health of Saints is coming into question now. And personally i don't agree with the Church's position about woman in the Church.<br /><br />Peace<br />Ajoy

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Phil,

Hello, Ajoy,

Hans Urs von Balthasar had some doubts that resemble yours, though his question was, "Why Do I Still Remain in the Church?" (Elucidations, Ignatius Press, 1975).

He begins by observing: "Even the dimmest of men can see that the Church, as the collection of sinners which she is, can never correspond to God's expectations."

He then goes on to give four reasons to remain in the Church:

1. The Church is the continuation and successor of the group of disciples we read about in the New Testament.

2. Only through the Church can one receive the body and blood of Jesus.

3. The Church is the Church of the saints, who are the "proof that Christians can become whole people."

4. The Church "is the only chance to escape from oneself, from this curse of one's importance."

I hope that some of the above will be helpful.

Thanks for starting the new topic, Ajoy. Derek's response seems to go to the heart of your inquiry; what do you think?

You note: I have done some research in the Church's history and there were definite decisions of the direction that the majority wished to go. But not everyone agreed with these decisions from what i can tell.

Yes, that's true. Regarding doctrinal issues, it's not a matter of majority rule, which would be a disaster. The bishops, in particular, have a vital role to play in discerning what teachings are more faithful to the Gospel than not.

And: What checks & balances does the Church use to make sure they are on the right track because even the psychological health of Saints is coming into question now. And personally i don't agree with the Church's position about woman in the Church.

Ultimately, it is a matter of trusting that the Holy Spirit is guiding the people of God on our historical sojourn. This is an ongoing process of discernment by the whole Church, not only the bishops. The issue of women, in particular, is a front-burner issue in this age.

Dear Phil & Derek:

Thank you for allowing me to ask some of the difficult questions
I have been experiencing presently. Thank you Derek for your exchange.
It was helpful.

JB I would like to spend some time with what you are saying. I have some of the same concerns that you are addressing.

In part I asked about how the Church monitors itself because of a
situation that occurred perhaps some 5 yrs. ago. I don't remember the
year but a ruling came down, at least in my area, that the wafers/bread used
in the Eucharist must be made with wheat. It was felt that the small amount
of gluten each person would receive would not be harmful to folks with
celiac sprue. So rice wafers would no longer be given.

Celiac Sprue is a condition where eating gluten damages ones
small intestine. This creates many issues for the individual including
an increased risk of cancer & malabsorption of nutrients.

The Church statement that this small amount of gluten would not be
harmful can not be known without each person undergoing a biopsy on their
intestine after several weeks of eating the bread product in the amt. given
during the Eucharist. There is a blood test available now that may be
useful but a biopsy is the standard test with Celiac's.

This ruling left folks with this condition in somewhat a challenging
situation. Including no longer participating in this part of the Eucharist,
leaving the Church or not joining it in the first place, or taking the possible
risk of eating the wheat. I can not speak for the Church's decision
but for the individual I know experiencing this condition it was seen
as a lack of compassion & understanding, & a down rite expecting one to
put their health at risk for the beliefs of the Church.

Ajoy

Ajoy, I'm a Eucharistic minister and we have someone at our parish with Celiac's disease. The bishop has granted permission for this person to receive gluten-free bread, which is consecrated along with the other bread for Communion. It's also possible for people to commune using consecrated wine, if such is available, as is the case with most parishes.

The ruling against rice wafers was made because, traditionally, unleavened bread was used in the Jewish Seder and in the Lord's supper. From what I've read, low-gluten communion wafers can be used and these aren't usually considered risky for people with gluten allergies. Obviously, people with strong allergies and/or Celiac Sprue disease will need to take care of their needs.

It seems quite a stretch to accuse the Church leadership of lack of compassion for their policy, imo. Shifting from wheat to rice hosts would be a very significant departure from tradition.

- - -

w.c., I'm not familiar with the curriculum for young people you're objecting to. To my knowledge, there's no official curriculum; a number of publishers make material available and parishes can choose which they'll use. Diocesan religious ed departments usually make recommendations and provide training on using curriculum.

The issue of shifting locus of power from external to internal is an important one, but complicated nonetheless. I'm not sure how much children are capable of doing this; it seems their usual modus operundi is external-referenced. Critical thinking skills of the sort that make internal-referenced decisions possible are difficult to develop before adolescence.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:

It seems quite a stretch to accuse the Church leadership of lack of compassion for their policy, imo. Shifting from wheat to rice hosts would be a very significant departure from tradition.

[/QB]

Hello Phil:

Thank you for clearing this up for me. This has
weighed heavily on me and i'm grateful to have
my information brought up to date.

My comments of a lack of compassion of Church hierarchy was that
when the ruling came out in my area the only option that was offered
was to receive low gluten communion wafers for those with celiacs. They had been receiving rice crackers that had been consecrated along with the bread for Communion until that decision.

Rice crackers were no longer going to be offered & Gluten free bread was not made an option for them at that point. I did not pursue the matter
after i heard this. I am glad to see that the Church did show compassion, understanding and an option to those with celiacs. I will contact my local churches to verify that they now have the same option of gluten free bread available.

Unfortunately, at his point i'm sorry to say that i do not fully relate
to the Eucharist as Catholics do. And so it is a bit harder for me to
understand some of these issues that arose from this issue. But then
again perhaps this is an invitation to begin to.

Thanks so much
Ajoy

Hi WC

One memory returning to me is that as a child i was very sensitive to the energies of
the environment i was in when being taught.

Peace
Ajoy

Ajoy, one possibility, too, is for those with allergies to wheat to receive just a very small portion of the Host. There is also the Precious Blood, as noted above . . .

quote:

Unfortunately, at his point i'm sorry to say that i do not fully relate to the Eucharist as Catholics do. And so it is a bit harder for me to understand some of these issues that arose from this issue. But then again perhaps this is an invitation to begin to.

The issue you raised and the way you raised it has more to do with Canon Law than with theology of the Eucharist. Without the latter, one can easily miss the forest for the trees.

- - -

W.C., I'm confident that Catholic religious ed programs teach children that God loves them and that they use a variety of experiential approaches to do so. In fact, one of the main criticisms of religious ed since Vatican II is that the emphasis has been so heavy on the experiential that young people were not given proper instruction on the basic teachings of the Church. E.g., they don't know what the Ten Commandments are, or the Cardinal Virtues, the Deadly Sins, etc.

See the following sites for sample resources:
- http://www.silk.net/RelEd/map1.htm
- http://catholicism.suite101.co...m/ccd_teaching_ideas
- http://www.sadlierreligion.com/catalog/ (the most popular provider)

Hi, Ajoy, one thing also to know -- some things the bishops can change, and some things they can't. When something is instituted by Jesus, the Church cannot change it.

I am curious. Do people who object to communion wafers made with wheat gluten also follow all the other dietary rules for people with Celiac's disease?

Also is the communion wine made without preservatives and added dyes, which are also to be avoided by one with the disease?

Katy

I am not home presently but did speak with 3 local Catholic Churches today.
2 of them said they could not accommodate
one with celiacs or a wheat allergy and referred me to try another church. The last church however
said they had absolutely no problem with this issue at all. They had 3-4 people already in the Church with this issue.

Peace
Ajoy

quote:

Originally posted by Katy:
[qb] I am curious. Do people who object to communion wafers made with wheat gluten also follow all the other dietary rules for people with Celiac's disease?

Also is the communion wine made without preservatives and added dyes, which are also to be avoided by one with the disease?

Katy [/qb]

Hi Katy:

Sure can't speak for anyone else other than who I know. Yes, a strict diet is followed. This is basically the major medical treatment, besides vits ect for this condition. There have also been stricter laws on the
labeling of foods as gluten free.

Did a quick check on wines as i was not aware of
that being a source of gluten. What i saw was
that wine is generally free of gluten if mfg. in
the US. Now wine coolers no. And regular
alcohol can be a source of gluten. The only
preservatives and dyes to avoid would be those
with gluten in them. Some medications can
contain wheat.

Peace
Ajoy

quote:

Originally posted by Derek:
[qb] Hi, Ajoy, one thing also to know -- some things the bishops can change, and some things they can't. When something is instituted by Jesus, the Church cannot change it. [/qb]

Hi Derek:

Your comment brought up something for me. Would
God want anyone to do anything that would injure their body.

I see now that these are some issues surfacing from my early Protestant education & other issues.

Thank you
Ajoy

Thanks for those links, Phil. I'm not through looking them over, but one that caught my eye was "Praying Your Experiences."

So far I haven't found any lesson plans for young children in that first link. But I can also approach the teachers at my own parish and see what they are doing.

Hi, I'd like to come back to your first post, Ajoy, though much have been said here on other topics. I just wanna say few words about my own way back to the Church.
I was raised Catholic, but my faith left me when I was 16, because I couldn't find any rational replacement for my mythic images of rather cold God-figure "out there". After 7 years of virtual atheism, I was given faith again through meditative experience. But there was time during which I fell in love with Christ and I started to experience, I suppose, contemplative graces, but didn't make a conscious assent to the Church. It lasted for about two or three years. I'm not sure how I made a decision to fully come back to the Church - part of it was a book by Thomas Keating "Mystery of Christ", and part of it was a certain conviction that Christ is present in the Church. I remember that I said to Him: "I will believe in the Church's doctrine and I will participate in its life, because I love you, although intelectually I don't agree with many things". So for some time it was out of love - like you do certain things for your partner, even if you don't undestand them or don't like want to do them. But afterwards my assent wasn't merely of that sort - I understood the doctrine better and accepted it also intellectually, and then, I accepted the hierarchy and stuff, although I give myself permission to object to things and disagree with them. I had really bad experiences with priests, but finally I've come to the point where imperfections of the Church don't cloud my experience of it as a manifestation of my Beloved.
MOst of my friends, however, can't do that and they have very bad story with the Church, so they want to stay out of it and seek God only in the interior manner. I accept it, although I love the Church myself. Here in Poland we have a lot of very nationalistic, mythical, chauvinistic church people and sometimes for some people it's enough to come for one holy mass to go out of the Church for ever. This is painful for me, but a fact.
When I was in America (Ann Arbor) I was enthusiastic about the Catholic parish out there. Probably, because you have so many different churches, priests have to make some effort, while in Poland there's only Catholicism on the stage, so priests think that they can be lousy and people still will come. I'm afraid in few years it's going to change rapidly and churches might go empty. Or some changes will come, for better, I hope.
But my view of religion in America is very narrow - you have probably other problems like fundamentalists, "Jesus' Camp" and so on.
I wonder, how it is to be a Catholic in the States...
And the bishops in Poland... difficult subject... because JPII was Polish, there were many political issues, and he made some unfortunate choices about the hierarchy in Poland and now it's very stagnant and rather mediocre.
But there's plenty of young people who really love God and want to change things in the Church. So I hope for the best.

quote:

Originally posted by mateusz:
[qb] Hi, I'd like to come back to your first post, Ajoy, though much have been said here on other topics. I just wanna say few words about my own way back to the Church.
I was raised Catholic, but my faith left me when I was 16, because I couldn't find any rational replacement for my mythic images of rather cold God-figure "out there". .... [/qb]

Dear Mateusz:

Thank you for coming back to my original question.
What you had to say was important to me. I was
getting very side tracked.

When I read your note I remembered why I
wanted to return the the Christian Church.

I was raised Protestant but the area i live in
now is highly Fundementalist Christian. And so
I have attended many Catholic Services. But there
are things i don't agree with. Our town has i
Catholic Church that does not have it's own Priest. One was asked to come out of retirement
to offer services to 3 different communities.

I know of Ann Arbor. It's a really a nice place
A college town so i believe the environment may
be a bit different there than in many other
places in the US.

Thank you so much for sharing your journey.

I wish to apologize to this forum for my angry outburst about the Church and religious abuse. When Hearts are tender this can be quite unpleasant. I discovered it is also
very harmful to my own body & Heart.

I understand the only way to approach this issue when it arises is to sit with Jesus in silence. Phil as far as i'm concerned you can delete my posts.

That's OK, Ajoy. No problem at all with your posts; I can see how one would perceive some of the Church's decisions as lacking compassion. There's been some good discussion related to your inquiry, and your own contributions have been good.

Hang in there with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Ajoy:
[qb] I wish to apologize to this forum for my angry outburst about the Church and religious abuse. When Hearts are tender this can be quite unpleasant. I discovered it is also
very harmful to my own body & Heart.

I understand the only way to approach this issue when it arises is to sit with Jesus in silence. Phil as far as i'm concerned you can delete my posts. [/qb]

Ajoy, don't worry about your posts above. I doubt any of us are the least bit offended by your comments. Looking back over the past 2 years or so, I recall your bringing up this issue of your having experienced "spiritual abuse" several times across different threads. So, clearly it is an important topic on your walk with God. In a sense, Shalom Place is a church, yes? So we encourage and support your honest expressions. We welcome your sincere reaching out for your personal healing from how certain church leaders terrified you.

In addition to sitting with Jesus in silence, may I suggest going through a prayer of forgiveness for those who hurt you. This is based on the model "Unbound." Find a mature Christian friend to help walk you through this. Begin with inviting the Holy Spirit to lead your prayers, search out your heart for toxic emotions, fear, bitterness, anger, etc. Let yourself recall those specific people and specific memories that hurt you. w.c. will add that you allow yourself to feel the emotions as they arise in your body. Then ask Jesus to help you to forgive each person for exactly what they did. If you're not ready to forgive, ask the Lord to help you to be willing to forgive and to give up all bitterness and resentment toward them. If you are able, say out loud to a praying friend/minister, "In the Name of Jesus, I forgive ______ for _____."

Release these people to the Lord that they be led to repencance and healing of their maltreatment of you and others. Recall that Jesus gave a very strong warning to those who cause "little ones who love Me to stumble." Didn't He say that it would be better that they tied a giant rock to their necks and jumped in the sea?! They'll have to account for their mistreatment of you. In the meantime, you don't need to be blocked from receiving God's gifts and grace through other folks in the Church because of this old wound.

Peace to you and your family,
Shasha

�In addition to sitting with Jesus in silence, may I suggest going through a prayer of forgiveness for those who hurt you. This is based on the model "Unbound." Find a mature Christian friend to help walk you through this. Begin with inviting the Holy Spirit to lead your prayers, search out your heart for toxic emotions, fear, bitterness, anger, etc. Let yourself recall those specific people and specific memories that hurt you. w.c. will add that you allow yourself to feel the emotions as they arise in your body. Then ask Jesus to help you to forgive each person for exactly what they did. If you're not ready to forgive, ask the Lord to help you to be willing to forgive and to give up all bitterness and resentment toward them. If you are able, say out loud to a praying friend/minister, "In the Name of Jesus, I forgive ______ for _____."


Shasha, I believe that this prayer/action of the heart is easier said than done. From my own experience of 30 years ago, I would have done such a thing �Forgiving all who hurt me, and giving them to the Lord�, but then decades later the same old wounds would come up, so I had not processed the hurts deeply enough.

For me, eventually, it was far more important to feel the emotions as they arose in my body, time after time, after time, after time, be with them, and discharge them. Not to rush to forgive until there was no more charge within me around the need to connect with the various wounds. And that took time.

But then more importantly when it came to forgiveness, I discovered that this was not needed at all, because there didn�t seem to be anything or anyone to forgive, as there was now no sense of being sinned against.

My identity was that which was hurt, in the first place, and I now I no longer lived out of that identity.

Grace is extraordinary.

Thank you for listening, and Ajoy, I love to read your posts

quote:

Hi Clare,

Thanks for your sharing on this. You are right that it takes a long time to forgive in cases of early, horrible abuse especially.

I've started a new thread as your comments on identity stirred up some more thoughts.

Thank you Shasha for your supportive words and sharing on prayers of forgiveness. Sorry for the delay getting back with you.

Peace
Ajoy

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:... [/qb]

Ajoy, don't worry about your posts above. cut...
Peace to you and your family,
Shasha [/QB][/QUOTE]

Thank you Clare very much, for sharing your experience. What you expressed in your healing process is what i'm experiencing. That things resurface. The root is not yet removed.

Yet, I'm seeing things a bit differently today, that is till this surface
again. Like, this experience in part, is what started me searching. Searching for what Jesus meant when He said to Love one another as I have Loved you.
What does it mean to love one another unconditionally. How did this
experience fit in with Jesus saying to look at the plank in my own eye
before the splinter in my neighbors.

I loved what you said about that when the time came to forgive you realized that no forgiveness was necessary. It rather fits in with what
my searching has been asking. I just bought Thomas Merton's book on Peace.

quote:

Originally posted by Clare:
[qb]
cut...
For me, eventually, it was far more important to feel the emotions as they arose in my body, time after time, after time, after time, be with them, and discharge them. Not to rush to forgive until there was no more charge within me around the need to connect with the various wounds. And that took time.

But then more importantly when it came to forgiveness, I discovered that this was not needed at all, because there didn�t seem to be anything or anyone to forgive, as there was now no sense of being sinned against.

My identity was that which was hurt, in the first place, and I now I no longer lived out of that identity.

Grace is extraordinary.

quote:

[/qb]