I am not sure where to put these questions, so I hope it is OK to ask my questions here...

Quite frequently during prayer/meditation I experience varying degrees of "sweetness"... I have always thought this sensation was the presence of God, meeting me in my prayer. This sweetness is sometimes just a very subtle and faint peace and calmness, and at other times it is absolutely consuming where it seems to keep my thoughts completely still and my whole being focused and aware of God within along with the most amazing sense of tranquility, affection, and rest from my efforts in prayer. This sweetness can occur right when I start prayer, or right at the end; it can last for mere seconds or as long as 30 minutes or more... it varies and I never know what God will do.

There is also a medically documented phenomena called the "Relaxation Response", which is described as an "inducable, physiologic state of quietude". All of this is explained in the book "the Relaxation Response" by Herbert Benson, MD. In the book he outlines a procedure to "invoke the relaxation response", this procedure is very similar to that outlined in Centering Prayer, or Christian Meditation.

Here is my question(s): is there a "natural quiet" that the human body/mind can release when someone learns how to do this, and is this similar to "sweetness" in prayer? Is the relaxation response the "pernicious peace" that is described in eastern forms of meditation, and to be avoided? Is the relaxation response a "natural gift" from God to help us in our human weakness so that we can be "internally recollected" to wait on His infused presence during prayer?

From my experience, there seems to be a "natural state of calm" that seems to occur at the beginning of prayer/meditation, but it is ususally just the "first layer" and usually left behind to deeper levels of quietude that I don't think I can induce... however, there are times when this sensation becomes totally overwhelming and enjoyable, and the sense that God is within is so intense that it simply can not be confused with the "relaxation response"... what are we to do with this "relaxation response" during our time of prayer, avoid it and keep waiting for God? Learn not to confuse this with God's infused presence?

I don't enter into internal prayer to seek this quiet, I really do seek Him in prayer first for Him, but if He does bless me with sweetness I enjoy it immensly, but I don't want to confuse what He gives versus what my physiology is doing and thus end up deluding myself...

I look forward to you sharing your experiences...

Blessings,

Caneman

Canemen,

This very much echoes my own experience. I think the relaxation response is to be enjoyed and acts as a way of calming body and mind, preparing us for the unmistakable occasions when God is present. I too had to ask myself whether I was simply seeking this natural peace and whether it was, in any way, an experience of God. To me it's a natural gift, not to be confused with God's actual presence which can be elusive but is pretty distinct and much deeper and more fulfilling than this quite natural resting in ourselves(although there are similarities between the two).

A third factor in the equation for me is the kundalini experience which can be triggered by the mind naturally resting in itself, or by the immersion in God's presence. This takes consciousness somewhere else altogether for me, into that no self type place some of the members were discusing on the Tolle thread. Again this is quite distinct from the Presence of God but sometimes gets in the way or leads the mind from an awarenes of God's Presence into something else altogether, an experience which is occasionally punctuated by the subconcious throwing up all kinds of images and references.


I feel that prayer acts as a conduit for both Presence or natural peace and finds expression in a grace filled flow of words offered to God, in short repeated prayer or in simple silent awareness; whereas breath awareness or body awareness can lead into that relaxation but generally doesn't lead oneinto the Presence of God, instead working on the energies of the body and mind in ways that can be pleasurable or at times mildly disturbing (and I guess healing).

The trick for me is to be aware of where the spirit or mind is at. If prayer seems difficult I'm quite happy just to rest in breath or body awareness. If my spirit feels like praying I'm quite glad to go with that because it's generally more rewarding and more uplifting for the soul. Of course somedays I'm just nowhere at all, which is pretty frustrating really.

Good reply, Stephen. It's my experience as well that the "relaxation response" is a natural good that can also be used by the Spirit to help facilitate the deeper kinds of resting in God that both you and Caneman described, and which sounds like contemplation. As you both note, the sense of God's presence cannot be reduced to one or a combination of "accidentals" such as physiological response, level of thinking, breathing patterns, etc. During contemplative experiences, one has a most definite sense of being in communion with God, even if such is obscure and somewhat affectively arid.

A curious "aside" to all of this is that it seems that one can become somewhat "addicted" to the relaxation response aspect of prayer. That's certainly the case with me, to the extent that I experience headaches and crankiness if my prayer time is cut short or disturbed. This happens to joggers and TM practitioners, and so we shouldn't be too surprised if we find it with those who take a significant chunk of time daily for contemplative practice. It's kind of annoying, in a way, but is also a factor that has reinforced my need for daily prayer through the years.

See http://www.happynews.com/news/...ngage-endorphins.htm and other sites on endorphins and meditation.

Caneman, I know you posted wanting answers, but I actually have a follow-up question that you or someone else may be able to answer. I have sometimes wondered whether this "sweetness" and even a "fire of love" referred to throughout the literature is in fact the same as what the Buddhists call a "jhana". Like the relaxation response, the jhanas are seen as natural, physiological occurrences. Of course, this might raise theological problems, since infused contemplation is held to be a grace, and something supernatural rather than a natural occurrence. But just as an experience, how does your experience compare with Buddhist descriptions of jhanas? See for example http://www.leighb.com/jhana2a.htm and scroll down to the heading "First Jhana" where it says: "The experience is that the pleasant sensation grows in intensity until it explodes into an unmistakable state of ecstasy."

Hi Derek, I am not sure what the Buddist jhanas are exactly, but is seems to me that it is more related to kundalini. The experience I have in prayer at times, that I believe is not the relaxation response, is indeed infused contemplation... the two qualities that I ascribe to this type of experiece are [1] I can't make this kind of prayer happen with methods or techniques, and [2] there is a relational and personal quality where I experience being loved by Jesus, and giving love back to Him.

Caneman

Thanks, Caneman. I am interested in these questions, but am at a disadvantage, since I do not have the lived experience. Your point [1] does sound at least compatible with the jhanas. That link mentions that the "most difficult part of entering the first Jhana is to not do anything." I am speculating, but that does sound comparable to your saying that you "can't make this kind of prayer happen with methods or techniques." There is nothing one can actively do. However, part [2] of your description is quite different from the jhanas. There is no mention at that link of "a relational and personal quality where I experience being loved by Jesus, and giving love back to Him." But thank you for describing how it is.

The "pernicious peace" (pax perniciosa) is an expression used by John Cassian in Conference IV.7. He uses it to describe a state where there no conflict between flesh and spirit. He then refers to St. Paul (Galatians 5:17) to suggest that a conflict between flesh and spirit is in fact the normal state of affairs.

Later (Conference X.8), Cassian uses a similar expression, the "deadly sleep" (sopor letalis), but this seems to be different. It describes another state, which is when one is trying to pray, but gets distracted into endless worldly thoughts, and is not even aware that this has happened.

Hi Derek,

You might find your answer here http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/
The owner of this site is Jeffrey Brooks; if you email him with your questions, tell him Clare sent you (smile)