After searching the scriptures and comparing it to today's widely accepted doctrine in identifying God, I question the accuracy of it. Is God really 3 persons or is God 1 person? The Bible clearly defines God in 1Corinthians 8:6 yet the majority seem to ignore it. "but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things,..." Please visit www.asitiswritten.org and let me know your thoughts about the topics presented. Not popular but popular doesn't equal Truth. Thank you.

"But to us there is but one God, the Father...and one Lord Jesus Christ..." How does this compare to some of man's understanding of who God is? We hear man say God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is to be the final authority.

Let a non-Catholic take a crack at this most complicated question:

If God is infinite what makes you so sure "one" is such a proper number?

Steve, the doctrine of the Trinity is held by all Christian Churches. In the Christian New Testament, Jesus speaks of the Father as God; Christ is referred to as God, and the Holy Spirit is referred to as God. At the end of Matthew's Gospel, Jesus tells the Apostles to baptize "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Christians are not teaching something that goes against the New Testament in proclaiming God as Trinity; pulling one or two texts out of the context of the entire teaching of the New Testament doesn't tell us much.

The relationship between the three Persons of the Trinity is not formally expressed in the New Testament, however. It was understood that there was only one God: Christianity is a monotheistic religion. And it was believed that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were distinct manifestations of God. It remained for Christian doctrine to clarify this with the "Three persons in one God" formulations of later Church councils.

The teaching on the Trinity expresses something of how God is intimately present in and to the universe, and how the universe exists in God. Maybe that topic would interest you? Or maybe you just wanted to say that Christianity has it all wrong about God?

Phil

Hi....

Mind if I chime in here? I read a few more of the articles on the site that Steve mentioned and they do give pause for thought. The biggest problem I saw with their reasoning was that they speak of the Godhead as three SEPARATE people... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. While it can be difficult to get a hold of, we believe that God is three in One.
As Phil says, three manifestations of One. But how can there be three manifestations of one person? Think about it for a minute. I am a wife, a mother, a daughter, a friend. I do not relate in exactly the same way in each of these roles. My children experience a slightly different side/knowledge of me than my husband or my mother or my friends. Yet, I am one person.... the same person - the same values, the same beliefs; same person different ways of relating. So when we as Christians worship Christ, we are worshipping God, when we call upon the Spirit, we are calling upon God because God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One.
Peace,
Wanda

Wanda,

Thank you for taking some time to look at some of the topics on the site mentioned. Some time I would like to get your feedback on what you read. I agree with you that we are 1 person yet have various roles such as father, husband, son, mother, daughter and wife. We would not relate to our spouse in the same way we would to our children so the different roles most likely call for different behaviors. I wrestle and sometimes play rough with my son which is something I wouldn't do with my wife. My role as a father and husband has not made me 2 distinct persons. It has only changed the way I behave or relate to the other person. My understanding of what the trinity doctrine teaches is that the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or Son. I believe this is incorrect. The Son is a role of God, The Holy Spirit is a role of God. There aren't 3 distinct persons of God but there are distinct roles in which God manifest Himself in order to accomplish what he wants. I have heard many times the example of the trinity being explained by the 3 parts of an egg(shell, white and yolk). That seems to be accepted so easily. What about an egg that can be hardboiled, scrambled or poached? 1 egg in 3 different forms. One thing that clearly makes us different from God is that he can reveal himself in various forms, we can't.

The doctrine of the Trinity is saying much more than that God has different roles. It is saying that there are three Persons sharing one divine Nature.

See this web page for a discussion on the Trinity from the old Catholic Encyclopedia. The last section on Latin theology is maybe the easiest to understand.

I've come to think of the Father as God-unmanifest, the Son/Word as God-manifest, and the Holy Spirit as the Personal energy bond which unites these Two. There's much more to it than that, of course.

Chris

I think we may be missing the point that just because there are titles (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) doesn't mean they represent 3 distinct persons. As Wanda pointed out. We as humans are fathers, sons and husbands yet we are not more than 1 distinct person.

Steve, did you check out the web page Chris referred us to. Very informative. The Christian religion really does intend to say three persons and not simply three roles. That these three also share in one nature means that we have not departed from monotheism, but, rather, learned that God's nature is a communion of Love. There are profound implications for belief in the Trinity, and this is another of them.

Phil

Phil,

I did look at the web page. First of all, any Egnlish teacher would say that Father, Son & Holy Ghost are not names but titles. Jesus told the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. Throughout the book of Acts they did so but not in the way our intellect understands. There is only 1 name that is above every other. That name is Jesus. The same one name by which we must be saved. As far as the identity of God being a mystery. His identity was a mystery throughout the old testament because He was Spirit and He had many titles but did not give Himself a name. He did this when he came in the flesh. He gave Himself the name Jesus. According to Romans 16:25-26 "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I." Not names but name. Colossians 1:26 "even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:" I know Phil you don't like when I bring scripture into the conversation but are we to be ignorant of God's Word? Or are we to rely more on the traditions of men?

Hi...

"The Christian religion really does intend to say three persons..."

Let me offer a quote from Loving the Questions by Marianne H. Micks.

She is referencing Lazareth's reflection of an icon by Rublev of the Trinity. The icon pictures three holy men sitting around a table on which rests a chalice and is based on the revelation of God to Abraham through the visitation of three men.
"In his meditation, Lazareth emphasized that this particular icon reveals God as a community of love, as "Perfect Unity in Community", in the exchange of love among Father, Son and Spirit, a love shared with humanity through the Eucharist."

Steve... I can understand your struggle probably because I struggle with the same thing - not the belief but the expression of it. Some things we may not have an adequate vocabulary to describe and for me this is one of them.

Chris you are right that this is more than three different roles, but at the same time I think we have to be careful not to separate God - the Trinity. That, for me comes too close to polytheism.

The thing that gives me comfort in all of this is that it is something that has been struggled with for 2000 years by far greater minds than mine. Reading the thoughts of such as Iraneus and Augustine and a Kempis and Schleiermacher and Moltman and Jenson.. learning of the difficulty of translating the concepts of ousia and hypostasis in the Greek into the substantia of Latin and on into the personae of English... I simply must bow to the collected wisdom of the church and of my own experience with the Triune God.
Like the symbol - the triangle - three sides - separate and yet indivisible. Three in One.
Peace,
Wanda

I know Phil you don't like when I bring scripture into the conversation but are we to be ignorant of God's Word? Or are we to rely more on the traditions of men?

You're assuming, I suppose, that the doctrine of the Trinity is "of man," and isn't one of the most essential revelations about God which comes to us from Scripture. This is bound to happen when you lop off 2,000 years of the Church's reflections on this issue and read the words of Scripture without reference to such, nor to the contexts in which they were written.

Let's try it one more time: the Christian Church has taught that God is Trinity--Three Persons sharing one Divine Nature--since the first generation of Christianity (Apostles Creed). This is an essential Christian belief, and although it does, in the end, express a mystery, that doesn't mean we can't understand a great deal about what is being revealed.

Since there is absolutely no doubt that Christianity teaches that God is Trinity, what one ought to do if one doesn't understand this is not try to change what the Church teaches, but understand the teaching. Wanda has pointed out some very positive steps in this direction. Obviously, there are tomes in Christian theology which mine the mystery very deeply as well.

Phil

Phil,

You say the Christian Church has taught that God has taught the trinity. Because the "Church" has taught it makes it true. What about God's word which says in Ezekiel 20:18 "But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not inthe statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols:" Verse 30 "Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?" Jeremiah 19:4 "Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods whom neither they nor their fathers have known.." Jeremiah 23:27 "which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal." What is God saying in these verses regarding "the church fathers"? Phil, have you looked at www.asitiswritten.org? I think if you do and are honest, you would admit that there are a number of valid questions and points made in various topics that are presented.

Steve... If there is but one person of the Trinity why are we taught by Christ to pray:
Our Father who art in heaven?
Who did He pray to when he went apart in the wilderness?
Who did he call to from the cross
"My God, My God Why hast thou forsaken me?"
Why does Jesus tell the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit? Matt. 28:19
This is not something the church fathers just made up Steve.

Wanda,

One reason why God had to come in the flesh was to show us how to walk in his footsteps. He was our perfect example. Despite who Christ was, he was flesh and when it comes to spiritual matters not even he wanted people to rely on flesh for the answers. As our example, he prayed to God who is Spirit. Look at John 3:13 Jesus says "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, byt he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." Jesus was physically on earth yet he says the Son of man is in heaven.

In regards to Matthew 28:19 "..baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Look at what the disciples did when they baptized people in the book of Acts. It isn't just a coincidence. Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ..." Acts 8:16 "(for as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 10:48 "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Were the disciples following Christ's command given in Matthew 28:19? Yes, because He is all in all. "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name..." What is the name of the Father that is hallowed? Philippians 2:9 " Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow...." In 1Cor. 1:13 Paul says "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" No, but they were baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. They were baptized in the name of Jesus.

Steve,

While this discussion was interesting it has become a bit pointless perhaps. You have your beliefs and I have mine and I have heard nothing to lead me to change them. May God be with you.
Peace,
Wanda

OK, let's try this since we're quoting Scriptures.

Steve, it's obvious that the Bible will, in the strongest possible way, assert that God has one nature. All the Scriptures you point to make that clear.

Wanda shared references which suggest Persons in the Godhead. Here are some more:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jn. 1, 1.
- Why was John saying the Word was "with" God if the Word didn't represent a Person of God?

"And the Word was made Flesh" (Jn. 1, 14)
- That's Jesus, obviously.

"No one has ever seen God; it is the only Son, who is nearest to the Father's heart, who has made him known." (Jn. 1, 18)
- The Son, we have already seen, is the Word made flesh, the Word who is God, and now the One who reveals the Father, who is closest to the Father's heart. Obviously, we're not speaking here of different names of God, nor of roles of God. The Father and the Son, who are clearly both indicated as God, nonetheless have a relationship. One reveals the other.

"Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son." (Jn. 17, 1).
- A relationship.

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?" (Jn. 14, 10).
- Father and Son share in one divine nature.

"I shall ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever, that Spirit of Truth. . . but you know him, because he is with you, he is in you." (Jn. 14, 16-17)
- Note, the Spirit is referred to as "he"

"He (the Spirit) will glorify me, since all he tells you will be taken from what is mine. Everything the Father has is mine; that is why I said: All he tells you will be taken from what is mine." (Jn. 16, 15)
- Note the reference to the Spirit as personal, and the Spirit's sharing in the divine nature.

So, Steve, if you will marshal all sorts of quotes to prove to us that the Bible teaches monotheism, that's fine. Only don't leave out the distinct references to the Trinity in the New Testament, including Paul's letters, which I could cite as well.

Phil

Phil,

I was addressing scriptures which Wanda brought up regarding being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and of the Holy Ghost. That is why I pointed to the scriptures I did. For some reason you haven't addressed those scriptures.

Steve, I see no need to reply to every Scripture you pull out of the context of the whole and interpret in isolation from the body of Christian faith as a whole.

Your main point seemed to be that Scripture does not teach the Trinity, and I have replied to that.

It is most assuredly the case that Christianity teaches that God is a three Persons who share equally in one Nature. This has been taught since the first generation of Christianity, and I have quoted key Scriptures which suggest as much.

I am now in agreement with Wanda, however, that discussing this with you is pretty pointless.

Phil

If one takes isolated Scriptures out of context and does not look at them fitting into the whole body of Christian faith as a whole, you can pretty much make the Scriptures support anything you want.

Matt. 27:5 "..(Judas) departed and went off and hanged himself."
Luke 10:37 "..and Jesus said, " Go and do likewise."
In faith,
Ana

Ha, Ana. Good one!

OK, Steve, replying to your ealier post:

Despite who Christ was, he was flesh and when it comes to spiritual matters not even he wanted people to rely on flesh for the answers. As our example, he prayed to God who is Spirit.

That's a non-sequitor. Christ prayed to God because that's the One we pray to. He certainly did entrust many issues to others, however, including the leadership of His Church. Just because Christ prayed to God, it doesn't follow that he didn't trust people.

Look at John 3:13 Jesus says "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, byt he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." Jesus was physically on earth yet he says the Son of man is in heaven.

That is correct. The Word, or 2nd Person of the Trinity (the Son), continued to exist in Heaven even while being incarnated in Jesus. So what's your point?

In regards to Matthew 28:19 "..baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Look at what the disciples did when they baptized people in the book of Acts. It isn't just a coincidence. Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ..." Acts 8:16 "(for as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Acts 10:48 "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Were the disciples following Christ's command given in Matthew 28:19? Yes, because He is all in all.

That's actually a pretty disingenious way to try to disprove the Trinity. One might just as easily say that the Apostles were being disobedient in not following the Trinitarian forumula. But the correct answer is that there were several baptismal formulae used in the early Church, and these are often contrasted with the baptism of John. By the end the of first century, the Trinitarian formula was the standard.

"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name..." What is the name of the Father that is hallowed?

Umm, isn't "Father" a pretty good designation of Person?

Philippians 2:9 " Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow...."

Appropriate, as Jesus is considered one who shares in the Divine nature. No disproof of the Trinity, here.

In 1Cor. 1:13 Paul says "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" No, but they were baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. They were baptized in the name of Jesus.

There is one Christ and one orthodox message, which is the point. I don't know how you jump from that to Trinitarian baptism = baptism in the name of Jesus = the doctrine of the Trinity is wrong!

There are so many errors in your thinking and your reasoning is so convoluted that it's pretty near impossible to dialogue with you about this. See my quotes from John's Gospel above for clear references to the Persons of the Trinity and their sharing in one divine nature. Perhaps you really want to discuss all this, but it seems more like you've come to accuse Christians (and Catholics in particular) of being all wrong about the Trinity.

Phil

Now replying to Steve's note in another thread, soon to be defunct, inquiring about how many thrones we shall see in heaven.

"Since you have been raised up in company with Christ, set your heart on what pertains to higher realms where Christ is seated at God's right hand." (Col. 3: 1).

So, to play this silly game about thrones and what not, one would have to conclude from this passage that there are at least two thrones: one for Christ (who is clearly divine), and one for God (the Father).

But Steve will no doubt quote a passage or two which refers to one throne. Ahh well, how to make sense of these discrepancies? Perhaps there are rooms in heaven with one throne, and other rooms with more than one? That would resolve the "problem," wouldn't it?

Steve, are you seeing how ridiculous some of this kind of nit-picking can get? I hope so. As Ana noted above, no passage of Scripture can be interpreted in isolation from the message of the whole. That's what's missing in that web site you referred us to, not to mention their disregard for the Church as the rightful interpreter of Scripture.

Phil

re: no passage of Scripture can be interpreted in isolation from the message of the whole.

By way of example, we would not quote: Judas went out and hung himself. followed by Go, now, and do likewise. --- although both verses are assuredly in Scripture. jb

Ahem, JB: read Ana's post above.

Apparently, that old chestnut has found its way to Louisiana as well.

You don't suppose everyone's going to know I wasn't reading this thread?

Did I miss any other really good parts?

For instance, did anyone say: One lies who speaks of the Trinity!

How 'bout the Creeds that ALL of mainstream Christendom have agreed upon for hundreds of years?
jb

ps What can I say: Great minds think alike.

Isaiah 28:9-10 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little."

John 14:7 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

He was our perfect example. John 13:15 "For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." He was an example in prayer. He went off alone to pray which agrees with Matt. 6:6 "But thou, whenthou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." One must ask themselves, why did Jesus have to pray? Was it for his benefit? He was God! He could do anything. He prayed to show us what we ought to do. 1Peter 2:21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps."

Who sent the Holy Spirit? John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father..." Wasn't the Comforter already with the disciples? John 14:17 "even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Is God the One you pray to? What is the justification by the Catholic doctrine of praying to Mary? Jesus says "Our Father..." no one else answers prayer.

The point to John 3:13 is heaven is His throne and the earth His footstool. He is everywhere. Why did the voice from heaven have to be "someone elses"?

Phil, please do reference for me the other baptism formulas used in the Word.

"Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name" Phil says that shows relationship. What is the name of the Father? Since Jesus is called The everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6, I submit the name is Jesus. John 17:6 " I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:.." The one God, the Father became flesh. He did manifest Himself and gave Himself the name of Jesus. 1Cor. 1:25 "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." No church can save anyone. No religious leader can save anyone. Do you want to put your trust in men who are corrupt and fat, only looking out for themselves(an obvious example in the current news events). These are the men making the rules, making doctrines, these are the ones you are entrusting your soul to? Only the Lord God can save us. Only He can explain his own words. Just like flesh and blood did not reveal to Peter the identity of Christ, so it is the same today. Nothing is new under the sun. Gen. 40:8 "And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you."

As far as Jesus literally sitting to the "right" of God. See Mark 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory." Verse 40 "but to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared." Why didn't Christ say, "Don't you realize the position to my left is already taken by my Father" if indeed it is?

1Cor. 1:20-21 "Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." ALL GLORY TO THE EVERLASTING FATHER.