This type of prayer is often described as an early "grade" or level of prayer. Indeed, some writers and teachers on contemplative prayer would place it at the opposite end of the spectrum from infused contemplation. It is, of course, an active form of prayer, but I do not think it to be in the least bit superficial. Like other active/kataphatic methods, it might even serve as a bridge or catalyst for silent, contemplative resting.

What I'm talking about, here, is not saying rote prayers like the "Our Father." If such a prayer is recited mindfully and attentively, that's a good thing. It might even lead to this kind of conversational prayer, where one simply speaks one's mind and/or heart to God/Christ as though He were sitting in a chair next to you, listening. No matter who you are or how "advanced" you think you are in the life of prayer, it is good to just speak to God in this manner, at times. Most obviously, it affirms the relational paradigm of Christian spirituality, enabling a sense of being-in-relationship with God. It might even be an antidote to dryness and aridity in prayer, especially for those who are highly committed to non-discursive methods.

Journaling can be another way to enter into this type of prayer. Just start writing to God, about anything -- preferably how you experience your relationship with God at this time. Or maybe it could be about a decision you're trying to make. Then, after awhile, give God a turn with the pen. Often, it seems that God takes up the challenge and communicates with us in this manner -- not as in "automatic writing," however; we jot down what we sense God telling us as we listen.

What are your experiences with vocal, conversational prayer?

Phil,

Growing up in a family that prayed the rosary every night, and going to Catholic schools and church I had my share of rote prayers.

Most of my praying now is conversational prayer, and Centering prayer.

Katy

P.S. Oh yes, and breathing prayer.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
I do not think it to be in the least bit superficial.

Phil, one of my favorite books is a collection of Blessed Mother Teresa's sayings titled Everything Starts from Prayer. It's one of those inspirational books with just one or two sentences per page. On page 81 she says: "Our words are useless unless they come from the bottom of the heart." I take that to mean we must be absolutely open, honest, and real in our prayers -- we must come from as deep inside ourselves as we can. I've found that advice extremely helpful.

Derek,

Great inspiration here from Mother T! So true isn't it. We can all sense when our words or others are not quite from the heart. A part of me cringes when I hear myself pray in a less heart-felt way (although there's grace for self-forgiveness). It usually means I'm rushing into prayer before aligning myself with my heart. So if I feel a hesitation or block or wanting to go down a wish-list type of prayer, I will sometimes ask the Holy Spirit to teach me how to pray.

In fact, I think the greatest obstacle for most people to praying out loud is their discomfort/anxiety with revealing their hearts. I'm guessing subtle shame about being vulnerable is the culprit.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
... It is, of course, an active form of prayer, but I do not think it to be in the least bit superficial. Like other active/kataphatic methods, it might even serve as a bridge or catalyst for silent, contemplative resting.

That's been my experience many times. I think of this relationship like a sailboat on the sea. The active prayer is like hoisting up and adjusting the sails of the boat (our soul). Infused contemplation is like the wind which now can propel the sailboat across the water.

Has somebody already presented this metaphor and I'm thinkin' it's mine?!

Sorry for the delayed response, Shasha. Yes, good image! It's come to me at times as well, though I've probably read it somewhere along the way. The question is, however, what to do when the sails are up and there's seemingly no wind blowing? Time to row? Wait? Fish?

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I continue these days to see the importance of vocal (not just mental) prayer . . . to actually hear oneself speaking to God, especially conversationally. Apophatic resting is the mainstay of my prayer and has been for years, but there is something about vocal prayer that seems to complete this . . . incarnate it, perhaps. It might be just a few words or phrases, but the key is that these are to be honest and completely sincere -- authentic, if you will, as Derek (referencing Mother Teresa) noted above.

How difficult to speak authentically! As Shasha observed, we do not always know if we are being sincere in our speech, do we? Vocal prayer expressed from contemplative depths provides and opportunity to hear oneself speaking from a true self level before God, who is not fooled by our masks. There's something deeply formative in this. Such vocal prayer doesn't take one into "mentalizing" (new word) or conceptual consciousness, nor does it negate or disturb contemplation (unless one defines contemplation in such manner that it precludes all mental and vocal activities, which I don't). There is still a resting in God's loving presence, howsoever obscure that might be, and the words themselves seem entirely congruent with this unitive rest. It is, as I say, a completion of apophatic rest -- a coming round again to the world of space and time, in touch with oneself as not only an expression of the Word, but a speaker of the Word. That is the power we have been given to share -- to create via the medium of thought and word in union with the Word Himself.

More on all this later, but it seems to me there hasn't been much written on this topic. Somewhere I found an allusion to it in St. Teresa (where else!) but haven't been able to locate it again.

Perhaps you mentioned the first type of the prayer of union that Teresa describes in her "Life":

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/teresa/life.viii.xvii.html

She says further that there are types in which the reason is unable to utter anything, but in the first type the soul is inebriated and says a lot of things to God. Interesting that in the prayer of quiet there's no impulse to talk to God - rather to be still - as far as Teresa is concerned. This seens to change in transition to the prayer of union.

I remembered that passage because I used to experience this type of prayer for years ago and, since I was very Zen then, I couldn't understand how active thinking can be present in contemplation and I even thought it's something "lower" than silence. Fortunately, my heart didn't pay attention to my conceptual framework to much, so I used to let the prayer overwhelm me. I experienced that as a constant fluctuation between the rapture of love, in which I couldn't think anything even if I wanted, and the other state of love in which I used to express all my gratitude, affection, passion, love etc. in words. It was shifting during the period of prayer.

But I'm sure speaking to God is very important. It helps me to feel that I'm relating to a person, since it's primarily by means of the word that we relate to others (which doesn't exclude other forms of being-with, of course). I'm not able to tell God lenghty stories in prayer, since the quiet usually prevails, but once in a while I say something to him from my heart, and I think it's just a part of any prayer.

Can a "sacred word" of centering prayer function as a word that puts us in a relationship? I don't know, since I didn't practice that. That may be one of Keating's intuitions, but probably the silence of the mind grows so powerfully in CP, that we aren't able to be in relationship anymore, slipping into non-dual silence.
The opposite side would be speaking to God without really paying attention to HIm - sort of self-centered talk we often do with others. Perhaps, non-dual people want to avoid it and go into total silence.
The middle-path would be saying really what we mean and want to say at the moment, and saying it with our whole being.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
... It is, as I say, a completion of apophatic rest -- a coming round again to the world of space and time, in touch with oneself as not only an expression of the Word, but a speaker of the Word. That is the power we have been given to share -- to create via the medium of thought and word in union with the Word Himself.

This is a deep mystery and incredible gift, that God would literally speak through us through our vocal prayers. I see people play around with this and have done it myself out of immaturity, but it feels very different when God's power moves through our words.

I was counseling a young girl in a treatment setting recently. She was devastated about having to go to a different school than her friends. I felt moved to tell her that she was going to have a wonderful time at her new school, meet loving people, etc. Although the words in my 'pep talk' were ordinary, I distinctly felt the Holy Spirit behind them. It was more than God wanting me to encourage her. And it was not a seeing prophetically into her future. It felt like as I spoke those words, they were literally creating the reality of what I spoke. Amazing. That was God! I wasn't trying to make this happen, and I don't dare try to replicate it on my own.

I don't think my experience is exactly what you meant above in saying that vocal prayer is the "power we have been given to share" with God, but it's one take on it.

In general, some vocal prayers just seem to have an anointing on them independent of other factors. Sometimes, my body goes up in flames as I pray and/or I 'go' to some place of such deep peace that I scarcely want to return. Some of my vocal prayers feel dry and feeble even if genuine. Some feel like they soar directly to God's throne room while others fall flat after flying around 10 feet up.

Here's a little book some of you might really enjoy, as it relates to conversational prayer as opening to Him just as we would any person, and then from there more openness is inspired which leads to deeper recollection, then prayer of quiet and, if given, contemplation. I think Stephen read this book and thought highly of it:

"Lectio Divina and the Practice of Teresian Prayer," by Sam Anthony Morello, OCD. You can find it on Amazon for just a few dollars.

It is a simple and rich read, only 26 pages, and explores vocal/conversational prayer in the trandition of Lectio Divina and how this dovetails so well with the instructions on prayer given by St. Teresa which dispose us to the pure gift of contemplation. The effort of prayer, prior to that gift we can't contrive, is rooted already in Him loving us always, and our entering the friendship He offers.



Hello there Shasha. Hope you are doing ok these days.

quote:

Originally posted by w.c.:
"Lectio Divina and the Practice of Teresian Prayer," by Sam Anthony Morello, OCD.

I have that book, too. It is indeed a wonderfully lucid and systematic summary of what St. Teresa says.